Scientists have unveiled a 47-million-year-old fossilised skeleton of a monkey hailed as the missing link in human evolution.

 

Source: Sky News

 

The search for a direct connection between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom has taken 200 years - but it was presented to the world today at a special news conference in New York.

 

The discovery of the 95%-complete 'lemur monkey' - dubbed Ida - is described by experts as the "eighth wonder of the world".

 

They say its impact on the world of palaeontology will be "somewhat like an asteroid falling down to Earth".

 

Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and the then radical, outlandish ideas he came up with during his time aboard the Beagle.

 

Sir David Attenborough said Darwin "would have been thrilled" to have seen the fossil - and says it tells us who we are and where we came from.

 

"This little creature is going to show us our connection with the rest of the mammals," he said.

 

"This is the one that connects us directly with them.

 

"Now people can say 'okay we are primates, show us the link'.

 

"The link they would have said up to now is missing - well it's no longer missing."

 

A team of the world's leading fossil experts, led by Professor Jorn Hurum, of Norway's National History Museum, have been secretly researching the 1ft 9in-tall young female monkey for the past two years.

 

And now it has been transported to New York under high security and unveiled to the world during the bicentenary of Darwin's birth.

 

Later this month, it will be exhibited for one day only at the Natural History Museum in London before being returned to Oslo.

 

Scientists say Ida - squashed to the thickness of a beer mat by the immense passage of time - is the most complete primate fossil ever found.

 

With her human-like nails instead of claws, and opposable big toes, she is placed at the very root of human evolution when early primates first developed features that would eventually develop into our own.

 

Another important discovery is the shape of the talus bone in her foot, which humans still have in their feet millions of lifetimes later.

 

Ida was unearthed by an amateur fossil-hunter some 25 years ago in Messel pit, an ancient crater lake near Frankfurt, Germany, famous for its fossils.

 

She was cleaned and set in polyester resin - and incredibly, was hung on a mystery German collector's wall for 20 years.

 

Sky News sources say the owner had no idea of the unique fossil's significance and simply admired it like a cherished Van Gogh or Picasso painting.

 

But in 2006, Ida came into the hands of private dealer Thomas Perner, who presented her to Prof Hurum at the annual Hamburg Fossil and Mineral Fair in Germany - a centre for the murky world of fossil-trading.

 

Prof Hurum said when he first saw the blueprint for evolution - the "most beautiful fossil worldwide" - he could not sleep for two days.

 

A home movie records the dramatic moment.

 

"This is really something that the world has never seen before, this is a unique specimen, totally unique," he says, clearly emotional.

 

He says he knew she should be saved for science rather than end up hidden from the world in a wealthy private collector's vault.

 

But the dealer's asking price was more than $1 million (£660,000) - ten times the amount even the rarest of fossils fetch on the black market.

 

Eventually, after six months of negotiations, he managed to raise the cash in Norway and brought Ida to Oslo.

 

Prof Hurum - who last summer dug up the fossil remains of a 50ft marine monster called Predator X from the permafrost on Svalbard, a Norwegian island close to the North Pole - then assembled a "dream team" of experts who worked in secret for two years.

 

They included palaeontologist Dr Jens Franzen, Dr Holly Smith, of the University of Michigan, and Philip Gingerich, president-elect of the US Paleontological Society.

 

Researchers could prove the fossil was genuine through X-rays, knowing it is impossible to fake the inner structure of a bone.

 

Through radiometric dating of Messel's volcanic rocks, they discovered Ida lived 47 million years ago in the Eocene period.

 

This was when tropical forests stretched right to the poles, and South America was still drifting and had yet to make contact with North America.

 

During that period, the first whales, horses, bats and monkeys emerged, and the early primates branched into two groups - one group lived on mainly as lemurs, and the second developed into monkeys, apes and humans.

 

The experts concluded Ida was not simply a lemur but a 'lemur monkey', displaying a mixture of both groups, and therefore putting her at the very branch of the human line.

 

"When Darwin published his On the Origin of Species in 1859, he said a lot about transitional species," said Prof Hurum

 

"...and he said that will never be found, a transitional species, and his whole theory will be wrong, so he would be really happy to live today when we publish Ida.

 

"This fossil is really a part of our history; this is part of our evolution, deep, deep back into the aeons of time, 47 million years ago.

 

"It's part of our evolution that's been hidden so far, it's been hidden because all the other specimens are so incomplete.

 

"They are so broken there's almost nothing to study and now this wonderful fossil appears and it makes the story so much easier to tell, so it's really a dream come true."

 

Up until now, the most famous fossil primate in the world has been Lucy, a 3.18-million-year-old hominid found in Ethiopia in 1974.

 

She was then our earliest known ancestor, and only 40% complete.

 

But at 95% complete, Ida was so well preserved in the mud at the bottom of the volcanic lake, there is even evidence of her fur shadow and remains of her last meal.

 

From this they concluded she was a leaf and fruit eater, and probably lived in the trees around the lake.

 

The absence of a bacculum (penis bone) confirmed she was female, and her milk teeth put her age at about nine-months-old - in maturity, equivalent to a six-year-old human child.

 

This was the same age as Prof Hurum's daughter Ida, and he named the fossil after her.

 

The study is being published and put online by the Public Library of Science, a leading academic journal with offices in Britain and the US.

 

Co-author of the scientific paper, Prof Gingerich, likens its importance to the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, an ancient Egyptian artefact found in 1799, which allowed us to decipher hieroglyphic writing.

 

One clue to Ida's fate - and her remarkable preservation as our oldest ancestor - was her badly fractured left wrist.

 

The team believes this stopped her from climbing and she had to emerge from the trees to drink water from the 250-metre-deep lake.

 

They think she was overcome by carbon dioxide gas from the crater, and sunk to the bottom where she was preserved in the mud as a time capsule - and a snapshot of evolution.

 

But amazingly this final piece of Darwin's jigsaw was almost lost to science when German authorities tried to turn Messel into a massive landfill rubbish dump.

 

Eventually, after campaigning by Dr Franzen, the plans were rejected and the fossil-rich lake was designated a World Heritage Site.

 

But no doubt there would have been one person happy for the missing link to have remained hidden.

 

When Darwin famously told the Bishop of Worcester's wife about his theory of evolution, she remarked: "Descended from the apes! My dear, let us hope that it is not true, but if it is, let us pray that it will not become generally known."

 

Now, it certainly is.

 

----------------

 

So how do we think the religious nuts will react to this then?

Edited May 19, 200916 yr by Grandwicky

So how do we think the religious nuts will react to this then?

"It was God who put the Apes on the planet" :drama:

wheres jjn when you need him?... :lol:

 

oh theyll deny it, richard attenborough was giving a talk in southern states in america, uligising about the wonderous fossils he was displaying. one student , in a dead pan voice said " we dont believe in all that evolution crap here!! " even with fossil evidence right in front of them, they dismissed it. this is what the church will do, no matter how much evidence you place before them.... and all they have? faith! :lol:

My wife says she thinks I'm the missing link. :(

wheres jjn when you need him?... :lol:

 

oh theyll deny it, richard attenborough was giving a talk in southern states in america, uligising about the wonderous fossils he was displaying. one student , in a dead pan voice said " we dont believe in all that evolution crap here!! " even with fossil evidence right in front of them, they dismissed it. this is what the church will do, no matter how much evidence you place before them.... and all they have? faith! :lol:

 

You meant to say David Attenborough, didn't you mate..... :lol:

 

Agreed though, you can offer up as much actual evidence as you want, they'll still believe their stupid book written over 2000 years ago when people still thought the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the planet..... :rolleyes: Fukkin' bible-bashing r*t****..... :wacko:

 

It seems that only fundamentalists (either christian fundamentalists, or atheist fundamentalists) do interpret the Bible literally. This method of interpretation is typical of people with shallow knowledge, such as a brainwashed average-teenager atheist or a fanatic evangelical. They are 2 sides of the same coin... It has been discuessed a thousand times here that most christians don´t give a flyng f*** about this, and not even scientists take this seriously as an offense to religion. To your information, Francis Collins, leader of the human genome code project is a christian, and so are many of several evolutionist scientiests. The big bang theory was developed by a priest, and mocked by atheists back then. It is such a huge arrogance from mediocre people with mediocre intellectual capacity to dismiss religious as "nuts" when genius much superior to them have been/are christians. :D :D :D Well, in fact, many christians I know are passionate about science. Unlike the egoistic materialistic, who only use it as a tool to get richer. Science is a tool that people can use it however they want, either for good or evil.

 

SCIENCE WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = HIROSHIMA BOMB.

 

DARWINISM WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = HOLOCAUST.

 

MAN WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = A WALKING DEAD PERSON.

It gets me laughing every time an atheist who barely knows what is a DNA code think of themselves as "free thinkers" or "people of science", while several intelectuals and nobel prize winners who have been devout christians are dismissed as "nuts". That´s the shallow reality TV show generation, folks!

SCIENCE WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = HIROSHIMA BOMB.

 

DARWINISM WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = HOLOCAUST.

 

MAN WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = A WALKING DEAD PERSON.

 

What does "spirituality" have to do with Religion though.....? I rather think one can be spiritual without following a religion (which is pretty much what Jesus said as well).. If you ask me, it's religion that destroys the human spirit and turns people into non-thinking zombies, not science...... Science at least allows itself to be questioned, criticised and is open to adapt and improve, most Religions and Cults brook no opposition at all.... People say religions give "answers", but who's asking the questions....? Religion doesn't offer any answers, it only offers one meaning and one point of view, and doesn't allow questions or deviations from the "truth".....

 

The people who had a go at David Attenborough were non "spiritual", they were a bunch of brain-washed Creationist zealots who refuse to acknowledge the essential truth..... Spirituality and Science can be bedfellows, Religion and Science cannot, Creationism is NOT Science, it's religion dressed up in the clothes of Science..... Religion has always, and continues to, stand in the way of progress... Just ask Galileo, he was spiritual, but the sodding Church condemned him as a heretic for having a mind of his own..... Same thing happens nowadays with stem cell research....

 

Your first state statement is a complete load of cr@p anyway.... It wasn't Oppenheimer who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think you'll find it was those "good Christians" in the White House and Pentagon who made that call.... Oppenheimer suffered torment and guilt for the rest of his life, he HAD a conscience (which surely a NON-spiritual person wouldn't have...), do you think those "Four Star Generals" and Politicians who actually made the decisions felt any such pangs of guilt....? I rather doubt it....

What does "spirituality" have to do with Religion though.....? I rather think one can be spiritual without following a religion (which is pretty much what Jesus said as well).. If you ask me, it's religion that destroys the human spirit and turns people into non-thinking zombies, not science...... Science at least allows itself to be questioned, criticised and is open to adapt and improve, most Religions and Cults brook no opposition at all.... People say religions give "answers", but who's asking the questions....? Religion doesn't offer any answers, it only offers one meaning and one point of view, and doesn't allow questions or deviations from the "truth".....

 

The people who had a go at David Attenborough were non "spiritual", they were a bunch of brain-washed Creationist zealots who refuse to acknowledge the essential truth..... Spirituality and Science can be bedfellows, Religion and Science cannot, Creationism is NOT Science, it's religion dressed up in the clothes of Science..... Religion has always, and continues to, stand in the way of progress... Just ask Galileo, he was spiritual, but the sodding Church condemned him as a heretic for having a mind of his own..... Same thing happens nowadays with stem cell research....

 

Your first state statement is a complete load of cr@p anyway.... It wasn't Oppenheimer who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think you'll find it was those "good Christians" in the White House and Pentagon who made that call.... Oppenheimer suffered torment and guilt for the rest of his life, he HAD a conscience (which surely a NON-spiritual person wouldn't have...), do you think those "Four Star Generals" and Politicians who actually made the decisions felt any such pangs of guilt....? I rather doubt it....

 

100% truth, especially the first paragraph :)

 

i read his comment this morning but hadnt time to reply before work... yes thats WORK chris :P and the thing that struck me too was the fact that it was christians who dropped the bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki.... oh wait, wasnt it christians too who invaded iraq? who are still in afghanistan? in fact wasnt every war the americans and british ever in done in the name of 'gawd' and christianity?

It seems that only fundamentalists (either christian fundamentalists, or atheist fundamentalists) do interpret the Bible literally. This method of interpretation is typical of people with shallow knowledge, such as a brainwashed average-teenager atheist or a fanatic evangelical. They are 2 sides of the same coin... It has been discuessed a thousand times here that most christians don´t give a flyng f*** about this, and not even scientists take this seriously as an offense to religion. To your information, Francis Collins, leader of the human genome code project is a christian, and so are many of several evolutionist scientiests. The big bang theory was developed by a priest, and mocked by atheists back then. It is such a huge arrogance from mediocre people with mediocre intellectual capacity to dismiss religious as "nuts" when genius much superior to them have been/are christians. :D :D :D Well, in fact, many christians I know are passionate about science. Unlike the egoistic materialistic, who only use it as a tool to get richer. Science is a tool that people can use it however they want, either for good or evil.

 

SCIENCE WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = HIROSHIMA BOMB.

 

DARWINISM WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = HOLOCAUST.

 

MAN WITHOUT SPIRITUALITY = A WALKING DEAD PERSON.

 

you dont half talk some twaddle....

 

so...the bible was written only for the intelectual elite was it? <_< , not the common, dumb, 'bloke in the street'? its a book of riddles that you have to intelectualise in order to get its true meaning? :lol: thats bollox... the facts are...and this has been done... that you can inteliectualise ANYTHING, some students did it with a copy of 'robin hood' back in the 70's!

 

your defence seems to be based on 'these scientists are christians' as a means of trying to undermine our allegations set against christianity.... well tough! it simply doesnt work! i couldnt give a flying fcuk what religion any scientist is IF he/she has a theory that can be reasoned with and backed by thought or physical evidence.

 

science is a tool, a tool for examining and learning the truth about our very existance, the truth about the whole physical, carnal world we live in. your very computer exists because of science, not faith, if it breaks down science will fix it, not faith.

 

your capilalised last 3 lines are utter rubbish, you have clearly been indocrinated to think in a certain way, a way that makes the nonsense that is the bible seem like the only hope you have.... thats very sad. we are ALL dead men walking, there is nothing else (though id like there to be), get over it, this is it, 1 shot, 1 life, its here and its now...enjoy it whilst you can because its all there is.

100% truth, especially the first paragraph :)

 

i read his comment this morning but hadnt time to reply before work... yes thats WORK chris :P and the thing that struck me too was the fact that it was christians who dropped the bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki.... oh wait, wasnt it christians too who invaded iraq? who are still in afghanistan? in fact wasnt every war the americans and british ever in done in the name of 'gawd' and christianity?

 

It really p!sses me off that these "bible-basher" (a general term to include ALL religious zealots by the way, "Koran Basher" or "Torah Basher" just doesn't have the same ring to it really :lol: ...) types believe that they and they alone hold a monopoly on spirituality or having a conscience or humanity... What utterly and fundamentally cr@p that assumption is.... The Humanists/Existentialists believed in spirituality, and in universal truths, natural law, etc, they just didn't believe in RELIGION's extremely narrow interpretations of such vast universal concepts.... And it's the same with Richard Dawkins I reckon...

 

The Religious types hold up Communism as being the reason for all of "Atheism's" supposed evils (when in fact all Communism did was replace one cult with another, Russian Orthodoxy and the Czars replaced by the Demagoguery of Stalinism/Maoism, such demagoguery and 'personality cult' is the total anti-thesis of true Atheism), I could just as easily hold up 9/11, The War on Terror and the 'Nu Crusades' in the Middle East, the atrocities in Bosnia (Serb Catholics murdering Bosnian Muslims..), the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition as being examples of the fundamental evils of ALL Religions..... Overstaged also mentions Nazism/The Holocaust... Again, this is NONSENSE, Hitler almost certainly had arcane and strange spiritual beliefs which went back to the old Aryan/Nordic belief systems such as Odinism, which he corrupted (as he corrupted the ancient HINDU Swastika symbol..) and used to put across his belief in the superiority of the Aryan Race.... So, to imply that Hitler was without any kind of religious or spiritual belief system is an utter pile of tripe, it just wasn't one based upon Judeo-Christianity.....

 

I seriously wonder sometimes if Overstaged actually has a handle on what the real arguments are in these issues.... It's NOT having a belief in a God, or a higher Universal force that's really the problem fundamentally, it's forcing EVERYONE to abide by one flawed dogma or another that's the real problem.... At the end of the day, Religion is man-made, and man is flawed, SCIENCE and MATHEMATICS is far more about searching for the universal truths.... Science has far more potential to be truly spiritual than Religion ever will, IMO.....

It really p!sses me off that these "bible-basher" (a general term to include ALL religious zealots by the way, "Koran Basher" or "Torah Basher" just doesn't have the same ring to it really :lol: ...) types believe that they and they alone hold a monopoly on spirituality or having a conscience or humanity... What utterly and fundamentally cr@p that assumption is.... The Humanists/Existentialists believed in spirituality, and in universal truths, natural law, etc, they just didn't believe in RELIGION's extremely narrow interpretations of such vast universal concepts.... And it's the same with Richard Dawkins I reckon...

 

The Religious types hold up Communism as being the reason for all of "Atheism's" supposed evils (when in fact all Communism did was replace one cult with another, Russian Orthodoxy and the Czars replaced by the Demagoguery of Stalinism/Maoism, such demagoguery and 'personality cult' is the total anti-thesis of true Atheism), I could just as easily hold up 9/11, The War on Terror and the 'Nu Crusades' in the Middle East, the atrocities in Bosnia (Serb Catholics murdering Bosnian Muslims..), the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition as being examples of the fundamental evils of ALL Religions..... Overstaged also mentions Nazism/The Holocaust... Again, this is NONSENSE, Hitler almost certainly had arcane and strange spiritual beliefs which went back to the old Aryan/Nordic belief systems such as Odinism, which he corrupted (as he corrupted the ancient HINDU Swastika symbol..) and used to put across his belief in the superiority of the Aryan Race.... So, to imply that Hitler was without any kind of religious or spiritual belief system is an utter pile of tripe, it just wasn't one based upon Judeo-Christianity.....

 

I seriously wonder sometimes if Overstaged actually has a handle on what the real arguments are in these issues.... It's NOT having a belief in a God, or a higher Universal force that's really the problem fundamentally, it's forcing EVERYONE to abide by one flawed dogma or another that's the real problem.... At the end of the day, Religion is man-made, and man is flawed, SCIENCE and MATHEMATICS is far more about searching for the universal truths.... Science has far more potential to be truly spiritual than Religion ever will, IMO.....

 

brilliant post m8! 100% truth.

ps.... overstaged aka jjn...

 

you STILL havnt answered my question regarding predestination, as you insist that everything we do has already been mapped out by god, how does that explain paedophiles, rapists, murderers, oh and even gay people ( whom you cite as acting outside gods orders) etc.... by your reckoning they are merely acting upon gods instructions :lol:

you dont half talk some twaddle....

 

so...the bible was written only for the intelectual elite was it?

 

No. That´s why it doesn´t talk about complex scientific theories. Only an "intelectual elite" can understand complex scientific theories, even tough "normal" people can agree with them depending on the varying degrees of trust they have in scientists.

 

<_< , not the common, dumb, 'bloke in the street'? its a book of riddles that you have to intelectualise in order to get its true meaning?

No, because it´s "meaning" have nothing to do with scientific theories. That´s bollox. Wether the world has 10k or 10 billion in years, in doesn´t make a slightest difference to a "normal" guy´s life...

 

science is a tool, a tool for examining and learning the truth about our very existance, the truth about the whole physical, carnal world we live in. your very computer exists because of science, not faith, if it breaks down science will fix it, not faith.

The dicotomy between "science" and "religion" is shallow. They are 2 different things. "Different" doesn´t mean "opposite" or inconciliable.

 

your capilalised last 3 lines are utter rubbish, you have clearly been indocrinated to think in a certain way

Just like YOU! You grew up in a heavily secularized country, even if from a nominally christian family, or a sunday morning christian, YOU have been raised in an anti-religious culture.

 

, a way that makes the nonsense that is the bible seem like the only hope you have.... thats very sad. we are ALL dead men walking, there is nothing else (though id like there to be), get over it, this is it, 1 shot, 1 life, its here and its now...enjoy it whilst you can because its all there is.

You just confirm what I´ve said about being materialistic... "it´s all there is". An afterlife is not "my hope", I barely think about it, because my life is already complete and full of meaning at this moment.

It really p!sses me off that these "bible-basher" (a general term to include ALL religious zealots by the way, "Koran Basher" or "Torah Basher" just doesn't have the same ring to it really :lol: ...) types believe that they and they alone hold a monopoly on spirituality or having a conscience or humanity... What utterly and fundamentally cr@p that assumption is.... The Humanists/Existentialists believed in spirituality, and in universal truths, natural law, etc, they just didn't believe in RELIGION's extremely narrow interpretations of such vast universal concepts.... And it's the same with Richard Dawkins I reckon...

I never said christianity has the monopoly of spirituality. I haven´t even mentioned it. But what the hell are these "universal truths" or "natural laws"??? "Natural law" (meaning a natural morality, a natural right...) is more

 

 

So, to imply that Hitler was without any kind of religious or spiritual belief system is an utter pile of tripe, it just wasn't one based upon Judeo-Christianity.....

And I haven´t implied that... Nobody knows exactly what did Hitler believe, and he had a very diverse religious background, altough what we know is HE DID use religious symbols, including the Church, for his purpouse. Using religion for a diverse purpouse is very common in history.

 

I seriously wonder sometimes if Overstaged actually has a handle on what the real arguments are in these issues.... It's NOT having a belief in a God, or a higher Universal force that's really the problem fundamentally, it's forcing EVERYONE to abide by one flawed dogma or another that's the real problem....

So WHAT really is the problem? Who the hell is "forcing" you to believe anything... In fact, I think you are closer to "forcing" other people to believe your shallow materialism then anything else. Just look at this topic. The article in the 1st post doesn´t even mention religion at all. It was only a small comment who ruined it all: "So how do we think the religious nuts will react to this then?", implyng that all religious people are nuts who ignore or deny anything that science develops, which is rather bull$h!t. The idea of this new discovery being a serious offense to religion is a joke. My purpouse here is only defense. I have never started ANY of the religious topics in this board... I just defend from the shallow ridiculous stupidies like this. In fact, it seems that you both are just trolling, linking religion to just every possible evil in the world just to make any "religious" people inferior.

 

At the end of the day, Religion is man-made, and man is flawed, SCIENCE and MATHEMATICS is far more about searching for the universal truths.... Science has far more potential to be truly spiritual than Religion ever will, IMO.....

Once again, the shallow dicotomy RELIGION/SCIENCE.

 

They are 2 different things with different objects.

ps.... overstaged aka jjn...

 

you STILL havnt answered my question regarding predestination, as you insist that everything we do has already been mapped out by god, how does that explain paedophiles, rapists, murderers, oh and even gay people ( whom you cite as acting outside gods orders) etc.... by your reckoning they are merely acting upon gods instructions :lol:

 

I´ll answear that after you answear what I asked for.

 

You pretend to only believe in stuff proven by science, but actually believes in a mystic "free will", which is against any type of science known. It seems that you are only adept of science when it´s convenient to you. -_- I have never mentioned the Bible to "prove" predestination (altough it certainly teaches it...), but only scientific and philosophical arguments. So this is not a religious discussion really... Don´t even mention "God", it´s just the material world we were talking about, so if you want to advocate free will then do it using science and reason, and not just the boring and predictable "the Bible is bull$h!t" argument. In fact, the brightest determinist thinkers where atheists. :wacko:

It seems that only fundamentalists (either christian fundamentalists, or atheist fundamentalists) do interpret the Bible literally. This method of interpretation is typical of people with shallow knowledge, such as a brainwashed average-teenager atheist or a fanatic evangelical. They are 2 sides of the same coin...

 

 

No. That´s why it doesn´t talk about complex scientific theories. Only an "intelectual elite" can understand complex scientific theories, even tough "normal" people can agree with them depending on the varying degrees of trust they have in scientists.

 

No, because it´s "meaning" have nothing to do with scientific theories. That´s bollox. Wether the world has 10k or 10 billion in years, in doesn´t make a slightest difference to a "normal" guy´s life...

The dicotomy between "science" and "religion" is shallow. They are 2 different things. "Different" doesn´t mean "opposite" or inconciliable.

 

Just like YOU! You grew up in a heavily secularized country, even if from a nominally christian family, or a sunday morning christian, YOU have been raised in an anti-religious culture.

You just confirm what I´ve said about being materialistic... "it´s all there is". An afterlife is not "my hope", I barely think about it, because my life is already complete and full of meaning at this moment.

 

 

your first paragraph, second quote, contradicts yourself! its YOU that constantly tries to muddle the issue with intellectual dogma .... yet you go on to say the bible IS for the man in the street!

 

i was brought up to believe in the fairystory, we all were in the 60's, religion was taught to us as FACT. thankfully we (my generation) have brains of our own, we can challenge, question, test, the religion theory so the position i currently hold is one based on first hand knowlege and years of questioning and reasoning.

 

this life IS all there is.... thats not materialistic, its pragmatic.

I´ll answear that after you answear what I asked for.

 

You pretend to only believe in stuff proven by science, but actually believes in a mystic "free will", which is against any type of science known. It seems that you are only adept of science when it´s convenient to you. -_- I have never mentioned the Bible to "prove" predestination (altough it certainly teaches it...), but only scientific and philosophical arguments. So this is not a religious discussion really... Don´t even mention "God", it´s just the material world we were talking about, so if you want to advocate free will then do it using science and reason, and not just the boring and predictable "the Bible is bull$h!t" argument. In fact, the brightest determinist thinkers where atheists. :wacko:

 

this is the most childish reply ive ever seen on this forum... ill show you mine after youve shown me yours... ffs..

 

i dont 'pretend ' anything...

 

science can only prove PHYSICAL manifestations, science cant even prove my name! so to suggest that im only 'all science' and nothing else is riddiculous. of COURSE there are emotions, feelings, knowlege that are part of the spiritual world, thats not 'mystic'.

 

ok then, im wrong, we have no free will.... god has already laid our paths out for us... the consequence? jesus died for nothing! :lol: because the pre-requisite for entry to heaven and eternal life is believing that "god so loved the world that he gave his only son, jesus, so that all who believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life" john 3:16. now THAT is the ONLY line in the bible that relates the 'good news'... it also suggests most strongly that we DO have a choice, free will.

 

evil people exist, rapists, murderers, paedophiles, either god allowed it to happen, or god simply aint there.... either way, you lose.