No-one else has been brought into it have they? Either way ... I think the topic has reached its peak. People seem to hate both in equal quantities.

 

Norma

oh dear...where do I start?

 

I won't even enter into answering the utter stupidity of Scott's postings (he seems to only decide to post inane, unreadable, borderline insulting ramblings these days.... a real shame, once such a readable poster here) - Scott, like the poster I've quoted above, is a Nine Inch Nails fan - says it all really. And Scott - nope, never saw Nirvana live - I was doing far more interesting things in 1991, thankyou very much. 1991 was the tail end of acid house and the birth of the recording arm of the Wild Bunch, Massive Attack for one thing.... yes, far more interesting things going on than rock bands in 1991 :rolleyes:

 

OK..... selfdestruct....err. no contact with teenagers...umm...I work with teenagers - day after day after day. Thankfully these same teenagers are not as apparently sheep-like as you make yourself appear. The teenagers I work with all have varying musical tastes - the alternative ones..... I don't think Nirvana or any of the other charty rock bands would feature particularly high on their playlists to be perfectly honest. You really have missed the point if you would even name Nirvana as alternative, anyway - they were mainstream - very - and alternative to what? Minus the hype they sound pretty damn generic to me.

 

Nirvana are about as valid and important to British music as Liberace is - only the most musically shallow would ever cite them as even a minor influence - and Scott, just for the record - The Smiths never ever cited Velvet Underground as an influence - for someone to say Nirvana have more influence over teenagers now than The Beatles or The Smiths is just hilariously misguided - and completely completely completely wide of the mark.

 

In America, maybe, where music has always been slow to catch on and pretty stagnant, yes, Nirvana are important..... but the UK was producing bands with more intelligence and depth than Nirvana throughout the 70s, 80s AND 90s. But only someone as young as selfdestruct would fail to miss this..... to not have actually been around when Nirvana hit the big time... when, in reality, the 'big' album of the time was REM's 'Out of Time' and certainly not 'Nevermind' - to try to make out they had some cultural influence in Britain is simply not true. They didn't - at all. OK, rock fans, maybe... but 'rock' was already a dead sub-genre at that point.... OK, so they killed off the big hair brigade.... but, in reality, that was all over by the late 80s anyway. They appealed to rock fans - had a couple of minor hit singles, one big album...and err... that was that. Hardly the makings of a legend, is it?

 

To make out Nirvana have some important lasting legacy is laughable - their music, from the shallow, badly written 6th-former-angsty lyrics (pretty toe curling stuff if you care to read them... kinda funny, actually.... but, of course, achingly, ahem, 'relevant' is you're a poorly read adolescent), to the generic production to the humdrum image... to state they are of ANY relevance in the UK beyond a few catchy singles.... is just wrong and pretty laughable.

 

If you want shoegazing bands with great lyrics and something to say and who reach out to touch an audience...come on, leave the Joe Public mainstream and be a little more creative, no? Nirvana were a below par, mediocre chart rock band with a suicidal and rather dull lead singer who wrote frankly TERRIBLE lyrics. Then he topped himself and...oh Jesus... well.... yes, oh Jesus literally - here we have the, ahem, 'Second Coming' - oh how iconic. Nothing more nothing less.

 

And for anyone, any age, to say they were anything more than a very average American rock band elevated to cult status simply because they have a dead singer displays a pretty shallow understanding of the true culture, relevance and art of music.

 

I'm slightly older than Chris [who is roughly the age of my younger sister] and a fair chunk of the kids that i grew up with have listened to Nirvana at some point during high school. My ex has a vastly different taste to me, and she counts Nirvana as one of her favourite bands. [she also likes Alterbridge, Nickelback and Ludovico Einaudi] I'd estimate that when i went to school 90% of the kids at my high school had heard at least one Nirvana song, and at least 5-10% own albums by them. My high school is the biggest in Scotland at about 1,925 kids currently.

 

You may work with Teenagers in a post-Nirvana world, but you aren't a Teenager. You haven't been for a while. I don't think you can have anywhere near an accurate picture of what Nirvana's influence is with Teenagers now if you dismiss what they are saying to you. Chris is saying Nirvana are still popular among Teenagers where he is in Reading and now i'm telling you in North East Fife they are also popular with Teenagers.

 

I am well aware of the artists i like to listen to and the fact that i moderate both the Lily Allen and Sugababes AF's. My taste in music has no bearings on my viewpoint. I'm not a Nirvana fan personally, like most people my age i rather like Smells Like Teen Spirit, but just because i have a very Pop/Electropop music taste it doesn't make my opinion less valid than yours. [i'd thought i'd save you the hassle of searching for the bands i like and bring them up myself as you seem incapable of posting in this thread without making snipe comments at the music taste of those who disagree with you. Last time i checked that isn't exactly how debating works]

Nirvana are very popular with teenagers in Birmingham too :D

 

As AaronTM summed up perfectly somewhere else: "Surely who becomes influential now is decided by those being influenced, rather than how influential they were at the time?".

 

Just because Nirvana themselves weren't ORIGINAL perhaps, doesn't mean they haven't had a huge influence. Because they undoubtedly have.

Cremey - Jark NEVER posts here - he is/was and always will be drawn by drama. Most of the fights you see on here - yep - old Jark, there he is, pursing those lips slap bang in the middle of it.

 

It's a shame both yourself AND Jark only seem to visit this area to get embroiled in a battle. And your absence, it isn't to do with any negativeity in this forum that scared you away because - apart from this thread - this is probably the most peacefull of ALL the areas on this site - so I'm a little baffled you feel the need to make probably your first post here on a thread you haven't even bothered commenting on and probably have zilch interest in anyway.

 

As for me commenting on selfdestruct's ramblings - I made a point about a post directed at myself - which was far too long and drawn out to read.... quite why you two feel the need to jump in here and start wagging fingers like old fishwives is beyond me.

 

As I said - if you have a point to make about the point in hand - make it - otherwise - do you honestly think you need to add anything?

I'll have you know that I'm a Nirvana fan actually and have always considered The Jam vastly overrated. And as for Weller's solo material...

So don't just assume next time, eh? ;)

Probably 99% of those same kids have heard an REM song, and perhaps a small percentage even own REM songs - however, I'd hardly say REM were shaping the listening patterns of a generation, as is being claimed here about Nirvana.

 

And as I stated a while back... when Nevermind came out - everyone was listening to Out of Time..by....umm.. REM.

THAT was the album everyone owned at that time, the one everyone seemed blown away by (despite it being, IMO, one of their weaker works and their earlier albums being far better). Nevermind was a mere flash in the pan in Britain. A healthy seller but certainly nothing that would've been remembered if Cobain hadn't blown his addled brains out. As Grimly has stated, as a live band, apprently Nirvana were amazing - however, as I wasn't there - how can I post a valid comment?

 

Nirvana have been elevated to some ridiculous Godlike status not because their material was anything special at all... but because they have a dead singer - always great for business. To say that someone as lyrically inept as Cobain can 'speak' to a generation - then you really need to start worrying about that said generation - just read the lyrics of their best known biggest hit to see what I mean.

 

In fact, here are some more amazing couplets from this supposed 'voice of a generation'.

 

About a Girl - Nirvana...

"I need an easy friend

I do, With an ear to lend

I do, Think you fit this shoe

I do, But do you have a clue?"

(6th form poetry? How could I...make that 3rd form)

 

Lithium - Nirvana

"I'm so ugly. But that's ok.

'Cause so are you. We've broke our mirrors.

Sunday morning. Is everyday for all I care.

And I'm not scared. Light my candles. In a daze cause I've found god.

 

Yeah yeah yeah yeah.....

 

I'm so lonely. And that's ok. (alt: 'cause today )

I shaved my head. And I'm not sad, and just maybe

I'm to blame for all I've heard. And I'm not sure.

I'm so excited. I can't wait to meet you there.

And I don't care. I'm so horny. But that's ok. My will is good.

 

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah....."

 

....ahem

 

Mr Moustache - Nirvana

"Take my hand and give it cleaning

Yes I eat cow – I am not proud

 

Is he in an easychair?

Poop as hard as a rock

I don’t like you anyway

Seal it in a box"

 

...I don't think Morrissey has much to worry about, do you? :lol:

 

Drain You - Nirvana

"One baby to another said

I’m lucky to meet you

I don’t care what you think

Unless it is about me

It is now my duty to completely drain you

A travel through a tube

And end up in your infection

 

Chew your meat for you

Pass it back and forth in a passionate kiss

From my mouth to yours because I like you"

 

Pennyroyal Tea - Nirvana

"I’m a liar and a thief

Sit and drink pennyroyal tea

 

I’m on warm milk and laxatives

Cherry-flavored antacids"

 

Irvine Welsh obviously based Trainspotting on this little gem... umm... :unsure:

 

All Apologies - Nirvana

"What else should I say

Everyone is gay

What else could I write

I don’t have the right

What else should I be

All apologies

 

In the sun

In the sun I feel as one

In the sun

In the sun

Married

Buried"

 

Pam Ayers should be quaking in her boots, I reckon..... so there you have it, a selection from throughout the recorded career of this supposed voice of a generation. Kind of makes NDubz seem like Pink Floyd, don't you think?

I'll have you know that I'm a Nirvana fan actually and have always considered The Jam vastly overrated. And as for Weller's solo material...

So don't just assume next time, eh? ;)

 

such a shame you never, ever, ever visit this area then unless guided here by certain others today. Don't you think?

I saw REM headline T in the Park and it was beyond packed. They went down extremely well at a festival primarily occupied by Teenagers.

 

I really honestly don't think you can or can't say what is shaping my generation musically. The best indicators you have are the people on this site.

 

You'd be surprised if you actually looked into the average posters music collection. You'd never be able to tell by looking through my posts that i am a fan of Shania Twain and the Lighthouse Family mainly because i grew up listening to them. The music your generation listens to has a lasting effect on the generation bellow you. While we were young most of the music we heard was shaped by our parents taste. When i was about 10, Come On Over was a big album in my house, just at the point where i was starting to develop my own music taste beyond the Spice Girls, and B*Witched. It played a key role at that stage in my life. REM was a big thing among your generation and it was passed down to mine. Sure we may not be massive fans of REM but thanks to your generation most of us have heard them in some form.

Silas is making alot of sense. I think russ never got Nirvana and is now trying to diminish them at every available opportunity. And to pick in lyrics is a bit silly. The weren't trite platitudes which is all that matters. Look at Radiohead. Thom Yorke is similarly ill-judged by his lyrics but it doesn't take away from his bands greatness.

 

Probably 99% of those same kids have heard an REM song, and perhaps a small percentage even own REM songs - however, I'd hardly say REM were shaping the listening patterns of a generation, as is being claimed here about Nirvana.

 

And as I stated a while back... when Nevermind came out - everyone was listening to Out of Time..by....umm.. REM.

THAT was the album everyone owned at that time, the one everyone seemed blown away by (despite it being, IMO, one of their weaker works and their earlier albums being far better). Nevermind was a mere flash in the pan in Britain. A healthy seller but certainly nothing that would've been remembered if Cobain hadn't blown his addled brains out. As Grimly has stated, as a live band, apprently Nirvana were amazing - however, as I wasn't there - how can I post a valid comment?

 

Nirvana have been elevated to some ridiculous Godlike status not because their material was anything special at all... but because they have a dead singer - always great for business. To say that someone as lyrically inept as Cobain can 'speak' to a generation - then you really need to start worrying about that said generation - just read the lyrics of their best known biggest hit to see what I mean.

 

Maybe at the time more people were listening to REM, but I bet if you took x amount of teenage music fans, I bet far more will own 'Nevermind' than own 'Out of Time', the whole arguement I have been posing is that Nirvana still have influence and relevance amoing teens (which has now been backed up by Ashford, Silas and Cremey), so what more people listened to at the time is irrelevant. Most teens do know REM but they dont get drawn to their music as much they are drawn to Nirvana, I can name many people who I grew up with that have at least one Nirvana album (but many with all of them), where as I cant think of one person who had a REM album, i'm not saying REM arent a good band (cant say I actually like them too much 'End of The World As We Know It' is a brilliant song though), i'm saying today they have no where near as much relevance as Nirvana do, nor the popularity, despite Michael Stripe not being dead.

 

Just because he is "lyrically inept" doesnt mean he cant speak to us, you can have some amazing lyrics but they could speak to no one, I dont personally thinks lyrics are a valid arguement here, and you are being highly selective with your picks.

 

such a shame you never, ever, ever visit this area then unless guided here by certain others today. Don't you think?

 

I dont get it, isnt it good that more people, and more diverse people than the usual lot are posting? why are you so hostile? more debate and a more diverse range of viewers is what retro needs to liven it up some more, this is the best thread here for ages.

 

and i'm pretty sure Cremey was probaly reading this topic as a Nirvana fan in the first place - not as someone who got guided here by certain others.

 

 

 

 

and just for reference - I am actually a fan of The Jam, but I think Weller is a massive cock, and I waaaaaaay perfer Nirvana, but The Jam have some great tunes.

Oh dear Oh dear!

 

I like Nirvana and The Jam and were both important to me at different times in my life.

 

To deny that Nirvana have had a lasting influence is denying reality, even if it is due to the silly sod blowing his head off. Just look at the amount of Nirvana shirts still being worn (by teenagers)

No they weren't completely original and used others ideas but to be honest a certain Mr Bowie has been doing that for 40 years and he is my favourite artist! (Bit of pot kettle black there)

 

Of course The Pixies were/are a better band and will probably go on to have an influence not unlike The Velvets.

 

TBH I don't think Nirvana were even the best grunge band and Teen Spirit was not even the best grunge single (that honour goes to Touch Me I'm Sick).

i dont think that nirvanas popularity is in much doubt, were they good?, well if you liked them then yes!

 

are they relevant today? like any popular group yes to a degree. its this degree that is being debated. clearly some still do find nirvana relevant but just how many? both the kids i mix (and own..lol) and those russ mixes with dont particually like nirvana, other then liking the odd track here or there.

 

are they more popular amongst todays youth then weller/the jam?.... yes! because weller has issued nothing any good since the jam finished (from a 'teen' perspective) nearly 30 years ago... nirvana however were active half that time ago and their influences are still around.

 

weller was bemoaning the likes of nirvana, saying that british people should be listening to british music because its more relevant to british kids ... i fully agree. i dont 'get' nirvana, never did, its another of those groups who i should like (like many indie bands around that time), but simply dont.

Just look at the amount of Nirvana shirts still being worn (by teenagers)

 

that means nothing, t shirts are a mass produced fashion statement, you get little kids with 'slipknot' t shirts on, you get che guevaras fisog on t shirst being worn by people who probably dont know who he is... i think its kinda fashionable to wear a nirvana t shirt without being a fan.

exactly... perhaps we're overestimating the importance of a band that it's, bizarrely, 'cool' to like? As we all know, teenagers on the whole are, and I suppose always have been, like sheep - you get the gangs following XFactor, the indie ones following the likes of Kasabian and Muse.... and the goth/alt/emo types who, in their own little world, think they're completely removed from society and that they are making a statement by liking dark, moody, supposedly 'alternative' music that their parents despise (exactly the same as the 80s when Bauhaus, Sex Gang Children, Siouxsie, Sisters of Mercy, Birthday Party etc were around and... surprise surprise... the teens of then wore black, thought they were apart from the norm, had long dyed hair and put the goolies up adults). These are the group who follow bands like, yes, Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, the 'Offbeat' label German stuff...and bands like and including Nirvana.

 

In a way, when I myself was one of those goth kids.... I suppose this infatuation with Nirvana can be explained.... because back then, we all loved The Doors... another band who, in all honesty, bar a few great singles, weren't really all that much.... and who had a glamorous lead singer who... yep.... topped himself after a doomed love affair with opiates, and who wrote drearily depressing ditties about death and drugs and the horrors of his own making.

 

Now with hindsight, of course, we see that The Doors wrote dreadful lyrics, made shoddy albums, were nowhere near as important as we made them out to be.... and are now consigned to the very back areas of our CD collections and consciousness.....

Similarly The Strokes. Unoriginal to a much greater degree than Nirvana but just as influential.

weller was bemoaning the likes of nirvana, saying that british people should be listening to british music because its more relevant to british kids ... i fully agree. i dont 'get' nirvana, never did, its another of those groups who i should like (like many indie bands around that time), but simply dont.

 

This is the bit that Weller said that I find the most rediculous. As if the nationality of the artist bars them from having something to say about the condition of human experience. Music from all around the world can have an effect on a listener wherever they are based. This statement is at best parochial and little minded.

It was also the worst thing about Brit Pop in that it completely ignored what was coming out of anywhere else in the world. It was the basis of the first arch Britpop album - Modern Life is Rubbish and it also a stance that Damon Albarn turned his back on when Blur released the Blur album based as it was on US indie rock.

 

So UK kids shouldn't be listening to Ladyhawke, Rammstein, Rihanna, Animal Collective, Bon Iver, Jay-Z, HIM et al just because they don't come from Britain? Patent bollocks.

 

Oh yeah and Curtis Mayfield (one of Weller's heroes) was raised in the UK was he? Bloody old fart. And I like The Jam!

that means nothing, t shirts are a mass produced fashion statement, you get little kids with 'slipknot' t shirts on, you get che guevaras fisog on t shirst being worn by people who probably dont know who he is... i think its kinda fashionable to wear a nirvana t shirt without being a fan.

Sorry I just come from a generation that liked the bands that we paraded around on our chests! I forgot the arsewits that go down Next or Burtons and pick up a distressed Ramones T-shirt just as a design object.

Sorry I just come from a generation that liked the bands that we paraded around on our chests! I forgot the arsewits that go down Next or Burtons and pick up a distressed Ramones T-shirt just as a design object.

 

ugh I hate people like that, there was a girl in my year at school who brought a Ramones bag and we asked her what her favourite song by them was and she said "Hey Ho Lets Go" :banghead:

ugh I hate people like that, there was a girl in my year at school who brought a Ramones bag and we asked her what her favourite song by them was and she said "Hey Ho Lets Go" :banghead:

 

 

At least she had heard a song by them. I'm sure there are many that haven't.

I find the slagging off of Brit pop a bit much to take.

 

Didn't it help increase the fortunes of Boo Radleys, Super Furry Animals, Mansun, Radiohead, Primal Scream by getting kids interested in guitar music again? It wasn't all meat-head Oasis and shouty Blur songs that were selling. A lot of amazing enduring music was made in the period of '94 - '97. And if it got people reading NME again then they were sure to find out about trip- hop too.

Some interestin points on both sides that I really don't have time to get involved in right now unfortunately but however it was that said that more people were listening to Out Of Time than Nevermind clearly wasn't living anywhere near me at the time. REM were breaking through too (finally) even if Out Of Time disappointing a huge number of fans like myself. Conversel I'd always thought Bleach weak and when I first heard Nevermind it was clear the band had finally delivered on their potential. Both albums were big and the audience for both was a huge crossover. Most people I knew then and know now liked both bands, and to be fair most of them liked The Jam too. The singles off Out Of Time weren't noticeably bigger than those of Nevermind either and in all the pubs and clubs I went in it was Nirvana that filled the floor and Nirvana eveyone went to see live.

Both bands were parltly responsible for paving the way for alternative music becoming more widely accepted and for that we should be thankful. Also i've no doubt that had Nirvana not finished when they did then their reputation would have suffered through a drop in quality. I can think of no band with a long term career that hasn't suffered a drop in quality. The law of averages will apply. Sooner or later you'll release a weak album but the brillianc eof those early records should not be forgotten. This is why despite my dislike of Weller and feeling that sometimes he opens his mouth without really thinking about what he's saying I still think that he should be acknowledged for the great records he made consistently between 1977 and 1981 and the occasionally great tunes since.

Oh and for the record nobody ever claimed Nirvana were original at the time They were just another in a long line of US Punk inspired Alt rock bands, they just did it really well and were on the button when the wider audience was willing to embrace them. We'd had years of chart dominance by the likes of S/A/W and house and rave music and the public wanted something new. Nirvana became the most succesful because they had the best and most striking album out right then. Kurt always acknowledged his influences to the point of repetition and consistenttly pointed out his debt to the Pixies, Vaselines, Replacements and Sonic Youth and they all benefitted from it. No one was bothered. We had a moment where 'our' underground music finally got greater recognition and it was exciting and uplifting. A couple of years later the emphasis in style changed to a more UK/English influence for Brit Pop and yes most of the people I knew liked much of that too. It's not band wagon jumping or glory hunting but the truth is (was?) that my frineds and I simply loved music in all it's guises as long as it was good music. There's always been the genre bashing idiots but if they can't broaden their horizons then that's their loss.