November 11, 201014 yr Who IS this best friend he has on admin? Is he unaware that the entire management team hate Chrames with a passion? I know right? *insert moopy grin here* It's rather wonderful, actually made my day reading that post. Anyway, I really don't understand why Grimly is advocating this as the best thing ever. I do kind of get the point about how actions speak louder than words, but like Rooney said all the focus is on the fact students are a militant bunch of arseholes. Combined with that is the fact that the whole point of the protest was to persuade people they should keep putting PUBLIC MONEY into students instead of putting us in nine grand of debt... ummm.. yeah, way to persuade that point by wasting the people's money on police and rebuiling Tory HQ. f***ing nice one guys.
November 11, 201014 yr Yeah, but think about it - I think 1 million going on a peaceful 'Stop the War' march shows that nothing will be achieved whatsoever by peaceful marches anymore. The Tories already KNOW most students are going to be opposed to the fee increases - a march of 50,000 isn't going to change their minds. Actions like these show that there will be consequences - we've already seen it work before at the poll tax riots! A proper full scale riot would be just what was needed to actually stop this ridiculous shock therapy course that the Tories have committed us to.
November 11, 201014 yr How can people justify a full scale riot? I think some people think we're back in the 90s. The student population is a minority one at that in the demographic of Britain. For us young people, and a lot of the left/socialists who are very opposed to the coalition governments plans then yes of course it is a brilliant idea for them, but do you think your average working man is going to care? No...he'll just think what a pathetic bunch idiots we are. In just about every place where there are Universities, the vast majority of locals hate students (of course apart from take-away owners, taxi companies, bars etc....). They won't care and probably support the Tory cuts. Someone earlier mentioned it - by 40,000+ people turning up, that there just shows the government how strongly students feel about the cuts, seeing as they were only expecting 10,000 to turn up! Actions to speak louder than words, but I don't think a lot of you understand how much work people involved in student unions have worked in order to make this a SAFE protest. I wouldn't mind otherwise that a few idiots went a bit loopy, but all the media focus of the protest is now on the Millbank area and what the students did...nothing about the actual good work a lot of people put into making the march happen in the first place.
November 11, 201014 yr How can people justify a full scale riot? I think some people think we're back in the 90s. The student population is a minority one at that in the demographic of Britain. For us young people, and a lot of the left/socialists who are very opposed to the coalition governments plans then yes of course it is a brilliant idea for them, but do you think your average working man is going to care? No...he'll just think what a pathetic bunch idiots we are. In just about every place where there are Universities, the vast majority of locals hate students (of course apart from take-away owners, taxi companies, bars etc....). They won't care and probably support the Tory cuts. Someone earlier mentioned it - by 40,000+ people turning up, that there just shows the government how strongly students feel about the cuts, seeing as they were only expecting 10,000 to turn up! Actions to speak louder than words, but I don't think a lot of you understand how much work people involved in student unions have worked in order to make this a SAFE protest. I wouldn't mind otherwise that a few idiots went a bit loopy, but all the media focus of the protest is now on the Millbank area and what the students did...nothing about the actual good work a lot of people put into making the march happen in the first place. I think I did justify a full-scale riot some posts back.... And, you cant take the student protests against education cuts as being some kind of "isolated" thing, you have to look at the bigger picture, the cuts to universities are part of of the Tory/Con Dem cuts generally, students will be affected by every aspect of the cuts programme, not just the ones to do with universities.... Okay, perhaps it wasn't so clever to chuck stuff off the roof, but actually occupying the building, I would argue is legitimate action, as was targeting Lib Dem HQ... What actually happened yesterday? Did any businesses get looted? Did any private residences get broken into? No, they didn't, what was targeted was GOVERNMENT, and as far as I'm concerned Government is a legitimate target..... I just wonder if the Police actually "stepped back" a bit yesterday deliberately tbh... I mean, they're under threats of cuts too aren't they...? Hmmmm.... :thinking:
November 11, 201014 yr Good blogpost by Billy Bragg: Indeed, Bragg has always told the truth.. A real "Working Class Hero"....
November 11, 201014 yr Author How can people justify a full scale riot? I think some people think we're back in the 90s. The student population is a minority one at that in the demographic of Britain. For us young people, and a lot of the left/socialists who are very opposed to the coalition governments plans then yes of course it is a brilliant idea for them, but do you think your average working man is going to care? No...he'll just think what a pathetic bunch idiots we are. In just about every place where there are Universities, the vast majority of locals hate students (of course apart from take-away owners, taxi companies, bars etc....). They won't care and probably support the Tory cuts. Someone earlier mentioned it - by 40,000+ people turning up, that there just shows the government how strongly students feel about the cuts, seeing as they were only expecting 10,000 to turn up! Actions to speak louder than words, but I don't think a lot of you understand how much work people involved in student unions have worked in order to make this a SAFE protest. I wouldn't mind otherwise that a few idiots went a bit loopy, but all the media focus of the protest is now on the Millbank area and what the students did...nothing about the actual good work a lot of people put into making the march happen in the first place. I don't necessarily justify it, but I do understand it, and it is pretty much indisputable that rioting is the best way of actually getting results, for better or for worse. The population at large are already strongly against this increase, but it was falling on deaf ears at Westminster, so what do students have to lose? It's not the average working man we have to convince anyway, it's 60 Lib Dem MPs whose jobs depend on popularity with the public.
November 11, 201014 yr Author Hopeful signs that Labour's policy will indeed be a graduate tax. Alan Johnson (who was previously one of the biggest critics of one) said today in a speech that the shadow cabinet are "actively considering and debating" it.
November 11, 201014 yr I don't necessarily justify it, but I do understand it, and it is pretty much indisputable that rioting is the best way of actually getting results, for better or for worse. The population at large are already strongly against this increase, but it was falling on deaf ears at Westminster, so what do students have to lose? It's not the average working man we have to convince anyway, it's 60 Lib Dem MPs whose jobs depend on popularity with the public. Are the public strongly against this policy? I've just had a quick look on the NUS website. That quotes a figure of 45% to 37% against the Browne proposals. First, that isn't overwhelming. Second, the Browne proposal was for unlimited tuition fees while the government proposal is for a limit and an early redemption fee to avoid wealthier students paying less by paying off the debt early. I note that the same survey shows support for a graduate tax but i would guess that people were not given the arguments for and against that before being asked the question. If a graduate tax had been discussed as much recently as the Browne proposals, the result may be different.
November 11, 201014 yr Emboldened by the numbers who took to the streets of London to campaign against plans to charge university students in England up to £9,000 a year in fees, students are planning a wave of direct-action protests across the country. Protesters occupied a building at the University of Manchester today, demanding access to accounts to see how government spending cuts might affect students and staff. Grassroots student groups said today that they were drawing up plans for a national day of action in two weeks' time. Michael Chessum, co-founder of the National Campaign Against the Cuts, predicted widespread disruption as students staged sit-ins, occupations or walkouts at universities and further education colleges on 24 November. "We went off script, the script that said a few thousand people would turn up, complain a bit and go home and the cuts would go through pretty much as planned," said Chessum, 21, a sabbatical officer at University College London. "That has changed. Now students really feel they can stop this." A statement published by student leaders praised the storming of the building housing Conservative party headquarters by a fringe group of protesters on Wednesday. "We reject any attempt to characterise the Millbank protest as small, 'extremist' or unrepresentative of our movement. We celebrate the fact that thousands of students were willing to send a message to the Tories that we will fight to win. Occupations are a long established tradition in the student movement that should be defended." The statement was signed by Clare Solomon, president of the University of London Union, Cameron Tait, president of Sussex university's student union and Lee Hall, author of Billy Elliot, among others. It puts local student representatives at odds with the NUS national leadership which condemned Wednesday's violence. The NUS plans to campaign locally against Lib Dem MPs, reminding them of their pre-election pledge to vote against a rise in tuition fees. NUS president Aaron Porter said: "Its an issue of principle. Clegg talked about no more broken promises – they made a promise and we will hold them to it." The union plans to raise petitions in constituencies with high numbers of student voters, warning MPs that they face losing their seat if they break their word on fees. A number of Lib Dem MPs plan to vote against a rise in fees, which is due to be presented to Parliament before Christmas. The 20 Lib Dem ministers, including Nick Clegg, the deputy prime minister, and business secretary Vince Cable, are expected to vote in favour of a rise. The resolution must be passed by both houses but cannot be amended. Clegg today admitted he should not have signed the NUS pledge on fees, blaming the state of public finances for the party's U-turn. "I should have been more careful perhaps in signing that pledge," he said. "At the time I really thought we could do it. I just didn't know, of course, before we came into government, quite what the state of the finances were." Writing in the Guardian today, Lib Dem MP Tim Farron describes fees as "the poll tax of our generation". "It is not for me to tell colleagues how to vote but I believe that we need to move away from burdening young people with debt, towards a fairer system. Education should be available to all – not just those who can stomach the debt." The Lib Dem MP Lorely Burt said the party was "stuck between a rock and a hard place". She added: "This is not our policy. We are not comfortable with it. In the coalition agreement we didn't manage to get our own policy but we have modified the Browne report [on higher education funding]to inject a considerable amount of fairness and progressiveness into the programme." Lib Dem opponents of a rise in fees have not coalesced around an alternative policy. Martin Horwood, who plans either to abstain or vote against, said: "The long-term alternative is really to pay for student finance through income tax and probably an inevitable reduction in student numbers, neither popular options with our Conservative partners. So short-term, I fear the alternative would be cuts in other areas like science or FE, which is why I'm hesitating to vote against." Student protests todayincluded a three-hour sit-in by 60 students at Manchester, demanding access to the university's accounts. "This is just what a few students who had the energy left after the London demo managed to achieve," said Jeremy Buck, 22, a student communications officer who was speaking on the group's behalf. "Imagine what will happen when they have enough time to organise properly for the 24th. It is a matter of watch this space." In Cambridge, students protested at the university's annual science, engineering and technology careers fair against "the marketisation of education". http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/n...nal-24-november I love how people are starting to take real direct action against the government in this country.
November 11, 201014 yr I wonder if we up north will be joining in the fun? One of the pics in the Daily Mail had a banner from Glasgow Uni
November 11, 201014 yr For every person who takes action though, there's one ignorant sod who'd rather sit back and scoff. Friend of mine on Facebook: "... thinks the tuition fees protest is pathetic. All it means if that you can spend less time going out boozing every night. Deal with it." ARGH. When I tried to jokingly correct him, I got told to shut up. I cannot tell you how angry I am right now tbh.
November 11, 201014 yr For every person who takes action though, there's one ignorant sod who'd rather sit back and scoff. Friend of mine on Facebook: "... thinks the tuition fees protest is pathetic. All it means if that you can spend less time going out boozing every night. Deal with it." ARGH. When I tried to jokingly correct him, I got told to shut up. I cannot tell you how angry I am right now tbh. I think you'll find this is the attitude of 90% of those who didn't go to University... Apart from those who went to Uni, or those who just hate the coalition in general (my friend who went to the protests yday said there were a few groups there who weren't even protesting about student fees...) no-one really cares about the student fees. They just think we're being greedy.
November 11, 201014 yr I think you'll find this is the attitude of 90% of those who didn't go to University... Apart from those who went to Uni, or those who just hate the coalition in general (my friend who went to the protests yday said there were a few groups there who weren't even protesting about student fees...) no-one really cares about the student fees. They just think we're being greedy. Well I think it's obvious that if it doesn't effect you, it won't concern you at all. It's just the ignorance and rudeness of people who slag people off for standing up for themselves pretty much ONLY because they're students.
November 11, 201014 yr I wasn't protesting the fees mainly, more the ridiculous 80% cuts which mean that humanities etc. will receive no government funding - and that the funding shortfall is being filled with a doubling/tripling in fees which isn't even going to cover the cuts. Essentially, we'll be paying triple for a worse education. It's the height of false economy.
November 12, 201014 yr I wasn't protesting the fees mainly, more the ridiculous 80% cuts which mean that humanities etc. will receive no government funding - and that the funding shortfall is being filled with a doubling/tripling in fees which isn't even going to cover the cuts. Essentially, we'll be paying triple for a worse education. It's the height of false economy. Spot on... The education cuts are actually a far worse problem than the fee rise..... You can expect to see some unis shutting down entirely I reckon, and won't THAT have a pretty disastrous effect on small businesses around the catchment area of a uni... -_-
November 12, 201014 yr I think you'll find this is the attitude of 90% of those who didn't go to University... Apart from those who went to Uni, or those who just hate the coalition in general (my friend who went to the protests yday said there were a few groups there who weren't even protesting about student fees...) no-one really cares about the student fees. They just think we're being greedy. Well I think it's obvious that if it doesn't effect you, it won't concern you at all. It's just the ignorance and rudeness of people who slag people off for standing up for themselves pretty much ONLY because they're students. I'm glad I associate with much different people to you guys then since the general consensus to people i have talked to about it (non students) have found the cuts extremely unreasonable and generally bad, and have been against them even though they are not effected, but then again i don't like to associate with people who only care about things that effect them and not care about what is right or wrong.
November 12, 201014 yr Author According to the NUS, atleast 3 Tory MPs have pledged to vote against the rise. Considering how tight the vote is going to be, that might well be decisive.
November 12, 201014 yr According to the NUS, atleast 3 Tory MPs have pledged to vote against the rise. Considering how tight the vote is going to be, that might well be decisive. You know, these pledges that the likes Clegg, Cable and co signed, could they not actually be considered legally binding documents....? Just a thought....
November 12, 201014 yr some students at my college were at that huge protest- I wasnt at college that day :P theres also an organised walkout on the 24th (Im also not at college that day :lol: ) which I think is a better way of protest, I could just tell that first thing was going to turn violent (apparently there were people walking there with coffins :o) I would like these fees to go down, £9,000 is just ludicrous :mellow: even though Im going this September, so I just escape them Edited November 12, 201014 yr by chart wizard
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