What do you think about the whole think?

 

I think it's sad he couldn't understand and back the purpose of the new treaty.

It will probably relagate Britain further to the sidelines of Europe, and doesn't help the whole continent to go better.

 

I know a lot of British people are anti-Europe so I wonder what you all think about it?

Edited December 12, 201113 yr by Hayzayy

I can only conclude that he's decided to pander to the right wing media and his own backbenchers rather than going with the Lib Dems and, you know, common sense. Not often you see those two put together these days :P

 

It's obviously going to turn even more of the rest of the EU against us but the Daily Express et al don't care because they're going OMFGZZZ FINALLY WERE LEAVING THE EU LOL.

 

I don't know what the future of the EU will be but I've long been of the opinion that while it exists, we should be a part of it. The veto will not help matters.

Leaving the EU would be utter madness. We would still have to abide by most EU rules in order to continue trading with it but we would have precisely no say in what those rules are.

 

To many of the anti-EU headbangers on the Tory right are still harking back to the days of Empire. A Britain outside the EU would be exactly what a map say it is, a small island just off mainland Europe.

EU veto: Cameron says he negotiated in 'good faith

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16134496

 

David Cameron has said he "genuinely looked to reach an agreement" at the EU summit but vetoed treaty change because it was not in the national interest.

 

Mr Cameron told MPs he negotiated in "good faith" and his demands were "modest, reasonable and relevant".

 

The prime minister said he used the veto as he did not secure "sufficient safeguards" on financial regulation.

 

There is no sign of his pro-European Deputy PM Nick Clegg, who usually sits alongside the PM in the Commons.

 

Labour leader Ed Miliband questioned why Mr Clegg was not in the Commons, saying the PM could "not even persuade" his deputy of the merits of his actions.

 

BBC Political Editor Nick Robinson said he had been told Mr Clegg - who said on Sunday the result "was bad for Britain" - had decided that his presence in the Chamber would be a distraction.

 

The statement began with Labour MPs shouting "where's Clegg" - and later during the statement Tory backbencher Nadine Dorries accused the Lib Dem leader of "cowardice".

 

Giving an account of the decisions he took in Brussels, Mr Cameron insisted he had agreed his negotiating stance with his Lib Dem partners before the summit and the two parties had to "put aside differences" to work in the national interest.

 

During rowdy exchanges, Commons Speaker John Bercow has had to intervene on several occasions to restore order.

 

Explaining his decision to veto the treaty, Mr Cameron said it was "not an easy thing to do but it was the right thing to do".

 

He said he was faced with the "choice of a treaty without proper safeguards or no treaty at all".

 

He dismissed claims that he had demanded "an opt-out" for the City from EU directives on finance, seeking only proper regulations and a "level playing field" for British business in Europe.

 

"I went to Brussels with one objective - to protect Britain's national interest. And that is what I did."

 

He argued: "I do not believe there is a binary choice for Britain that we can either sacrifice the national interest on issue after issue or lose our influence at the heart of Europe's negotiating process.

 

"I am absolutely clear that it is possible to be a both a full, committed and influential member of the EU but to stay out of arrangements where they do not protect our interests."

'Bad deal'

 

But Ed Miliband said the prime minister had gained nothing from the negotiations and had "given up his seat at the table".

 

"He has come back with a bad deal for Britain," he told MPs. "Far from protecting our interests, he has left us without a voice."

 

Suggesting the outcome was a "diplomatic disaster" for the UK, Mr Miliband said the prime minister "did not want a deal as he could not deliver it through his party".

 

Mr Cameron's efforts were applauded by a succession of eurosceptic Conservative MPs, one - John Redwood - saying he had shown "excellent statesmanship".

 

"Britain today has much more negotiating strength because they know they are dealing with a prime minister who will say no if he needs to," he said.

 

But former Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell said it was "vital" for the UK to remain an engaged member of the EU, while his colleague Martin Horwood said international investors needed reassuring that the UK remained "at the heart" of European decision-making.

 

Mr Cameron blocked changes to the EU's Lisbon Treaty, which were aimed at addressing the euro crisis, at a summit on Friday.

 

Senior Conservative figures have insisted the veto was in part to protect the City of London from excessive intervention by Europe, but Labour and the UK Independence Party have both argued that actually no additional safeguards were achieved.

 

The treaty changes needed the support of all 27 EU members, including those not in the euro, such as the UK, to go ahead.

 

It now looks likely that all 26 other members of the European Union will agree to a new "accord" setting out tougher budget rules aimed at preventing a repeat of the current eurozone crisis.

 

The new accord will hold eurozone members to strict budgetary rules including:

 

* a cap of 0.5% of GDP on countries' annual structural deficits

* "automatic consequences" for countries whose public deficit exceeds 3% of GDP

* a requirement to submit their national budgets to the European Commission, which will have the power to request that they be revised

 

French President Nicholas Sarkozy has suggested he and German Chancellor Angela Merkel "did everything" to let the UK agree to the treaty but Friday's outcome signalled "there are now clearly two Europes".

 

However the deal still has to be agreed by a number of national parliaments, and the reaction of the financial markets suggests it has failed to bring a swift end to the euro crisis.

 

The BBC's Rob Cameron in Prague said: "Commentators here have taken a more cautious - and arguably more accurate - view, reflecting the fact that the Czechs haven't signed up to anything yet."

 

The current French presidential front-runner, Socialist Francois Hollande, said on Monday that if he was elected next May he would renegotiate the accord, saying: "This accord is not the right answer."

 

One of Chancellor Merkel's close aides in the German parliament told the BBC's Stephen Evans he does not see why "Britain should stay isolated".

 

CDU Chief Whip Peter Altmaier said: "Over the last years there has been very intensive cooperation between the UK and Germany and I'm deeply convinced that this will continue. It will last. We have so much in common and there are so few issues that divide us."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I would say that this decision is far less in the "national" interests, and far more in the Banksters' and The City's interests..... -_-

All of which doesn't sort out the major problem which is that the Euro is on its way out- (for once) Boris Johnson was right, everyone is rushing to save the cancer and leaving the patient to die....

 

 

You'll note that Germany and France aren't putting much on the table themselves for all their lofty talk it's all the central banks, and I actually think Cameron did the right thing on this occasion. As for Clegg well my opinion of him can't really get any lower now.

You'll note that Germany and France aren't putting much on the table themselves for all their lofty talk it's all the central banks, and I actually think Cameron did the right thing on this occasion. As for Clegg well my opinion of him can't really get any lower now.

Clegg was stitched up - putting him in the company of several other ministers who have suffered the same from the lying, devious Cameron. He wasn't told the whole story before he issued his initial statement (or No 10 issued it for him). he is now standing up for Lib Dem principles - for a change.

 

And, if you think that Germany and France didn't offer anything, what exactly did Cameron veto?

Clegg was stitched up - putting him in the company of several other ministers who have suffered the same from the lying, devious Cameron. He wasn't told the whole story before he issued his initial statement (or No 10 issued it for him). he is now standing up for Lib Dem principles - for a change.

 

And, if you think that Germany and France didn't offer anything, what exactly did Cameron veto?

I'm no great fan of Cameron myself but I think it's clear to most that the Euro is fighting a losing battle. Of course things like the transaction tax (which would hit London and thusly the UK) far more than other countries, would mean that once again WE would be footing a large part of the bill. Very interesting programme on BBC2 last night "How the west went bust" which examined the problem in great depth, it seems inevitable certainly to the markets that Greece will default eventually and pouring money into it is not gonna save it.

 

For example Greek farmers and agricultural firms were given billions in subsidies from the EU to improve their technology etc and what did they actually do with it? they spent it on mercedes for themselves and funding a better lifestyle based on debt (that's in the programme spoke by a Greek economist I believe) basically the EU have done all of this without properly monitoring WHAT the money was ACTUALLY spent on. It's all very well saying NOW we want to monitor it but it's all far too late.

 

By trying to keep the UK as far as possible for this shambles I think it's the right thing (and yes I know we still have to pay into the IMF etc but the point is not to get us further into the crap than we are in now)

If the euro does collapse then the UK will be hit hard. It's as simple as that. Therefore, it is in the UK's interest to try to prevent that happening - or, at the very least, restricting the damage to just the departure of Greece.

What a farce. The national interest is protected with the UK at the heart of negotiations with us working WITH the eurozone nations and the wider EU to find the best solution to the crisis. If no solution is found, or one that isn't ideal for us because we've opted out of everything :manson: , then it badly affects us which is hardly in the national interest. IF the Eurozone collapses and the EU heads for a double dip recession we are going to be in a deeper hole than the vast majority of the EU. With the damage that the ConDems have already done to our economy and it's fragile recovery, our BIGGEST trading partner hitting the shitter would kill our economy stone cold dead.

 

 

Everytime the Tory's open their mouths over Europe and the further Camoron pushes us away from the EU the less work Salmond and the SNP has to do to convince me to vote for Independence over DevoMax. At this rate it won't be long before I'm campaigning WITH the SNP for Independence. (Shocking I know)

I'm no great fan of Cameron myself but I think it's clear to most that the Euro is fighting a losing battle. Of course things like the transaction tax (which would hit London and thusly the UK) far more than other countries, would mean that once again WE would be footing a large part of the bill.

 

By trying to keep the UK as far as possible for this shambles I think it's the right thing (and yes I know we still have to pay into the IMF etc but the point is not to get us further into the crap than we are in now)

The transaction tax would NOT adversely affect us.

 

1] The City of London itself isn't actually in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland never mind the bloody European Union.

2] Where on earth would these banks up and move too? It's too expensive for them to move all their employees across the world and everyone with an ounce of common sense knows they are just delivering empty threats.

3] The City of London is the WORLDS LARGEST TAX HAVEN. LARGEST. WORLDS LARGEST. They don't pay taxes any way so none of this affects them.

4] The absolutely TINY transaction tax would allow us to get some more revenue in that can actually help our recovery.

 

 

 

We need to be right at the heart of this to protect us as much as physically possible. As it stands, if we opt out, the EU can actually make mountains of decisions that adversely effect us without us having any way AT ALL. How on earth is that the right thing?

I'm no great fan of Cameron myself but I think it's clear to most that the Euro is fighting a losing battle. Of course things like the transaction tax (which would hit London and thusly the UK) far more than other countries, would mean that once again WE would be footing a large part of the bill. Very interesting programme on BBC2 last night "How the west went bust" which examined the problem in great depth, it seems inevitable certainly to the markets that Greece will default eventually and pouring money into it is not gonna save it.

 

For example Greek farmers and agricultural firms were given billions in subsidies from the EU to improve their technology etc and what did they actually do with it? they spent it on mercedes for themselves and funding a better lifestyle based on debt (that's in the programme spoke by a Greek economist I believe) basically the EU have done all of this without properly monitoring WHAT the money was ACTUALLY spent on. It's all very well saying NOW we want to monitor it but it's all far too late.

 

By trying to keep the UK as far as possible for this shambles I think it's the right thing (and yes I know we still have to pay into the IMF etc but the point is not to get us further into the crap than we are in now)

 

No, the BANKS would be footing the bill, which they've been allowed to dodge for far too long.. The City is one of the biggest Tax Havens in the world and accountable to absolutely no one.. People go on about the EU being unnaccountable, well, who the fukk voted for the Banksters or the totally undemocratic Corporation of London..? <_<

The transaction tax would NOT adversely affect us.

 

1] The City of London itself isn't actually in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland never mind the bloody European Union.

2] Where on earth would these banks up and move too? It's too expensive for them to move all their employees across the world and everyone with an ounce of common sense knows they are just delivering empty threats.

3] The City of London is the WORLDS LARGEST TAX HAVEN. LARGEST. WORLDS LARGEST. They don't pay taxes any way so none of this affects them.

4] The absolutely TINY transaction tax would allow us to get some more revenue in that can actually help our recovery.

 

We need to be right at the heart of this to protect us as much as physically possible. As it stands, if we opt out, the EU can actually make mountains of decisions that adversely effect us without us having any way AT ALL. How on earth is that the right thing?

 

Spot on...

 

If the euro does collapse then the UK will be hit hard. It's as simple as that. Therefore, it is in the UK's interest to try to prevent that happening - or, at the very least, restricting the damage to just the departure of Greece.

Of course we will be hard hit, I don't doubt nor dispute that, but there comes a time you have to try to limit your losses. Does anyone believe that Greece seriously won't default and that they're departure is not inevitable? No good pumping money into a lost cause. Most of its problems have been brought on by poor government- it's a shame that the EU in its rush for unity never really examined what countries were doing with their money.

Of course we will be hard hit, I don't doubt nor dispute that, but there comes a time you have to try to limit your losses. Does anyone believe that Greece seriously won't default and that they're departure is not inevitable? No good pumping money into a lost cause. Most of its problems have been brought on by poor government- it's a shame that the EU in its rush for unity never really examined what countries were doing with their money.

 

I actually agree that Greece should default, leave the EU and go back to a devalued Drachma, which was probably what Papandreou was going to do if he'd gotten his Referendum... I think that is genuinely the only way out for them.. Italy on the other hand has something like $500bn in gold reserves, which, no doubt, the Banksters would dearly love to get their mitts on.....

 

BUT, that does not mean to say that Cameron made the right decision. As much as there is wrong with the EU and, god knows it certainly needs reforming, we're better off inside than out...

 

What do you think about the whole think?

 

I think it's sad he couldn't understand and back the purpose of the new treaty.

It will probably relagate Britain further to the sidelines of Europe, and doesn't help the whole continent to go better.

 

I know a lot of British people are anti-Europe so I wonder what you all think about it?

When it comes to the EU, I'm one of those freaks that absolutely LOVES the whole idea of Europe co-operating strongly and working together closely. I think it's the best was to keep Europe competitive against the BRIC's and the emerging economies of South America and SE Asia. Just look at Australia. They've tied themselves to SE Asia and their economy is BOOMING because their trading partners have growing economies. Together as a single entity Europe can gain greatly from trade pacts.

 

I actually think the ECB should be made the lender of last resort to ALL Eurozone nations, which would calm the markets INSTANTLY. Merkel needs to bite the bullet and ride the back lash. While it'll cause a bit of agro for her, that'll die down when the markets calm down and the Eurozone calmly inches back from the brink just long enough for there to be a fix put in place.

No, the BANKS would be footing the bill, which they've been allowed to dodge for far too long.. The City is one of the biggest Tax Havens in the world and accountable to absolutely no one.. People go on about the EU being unnaccountable, well, who the fukk voted for the Banksters or the totally undemocratic Corporation of London..? <_<

Ok wait a minute I can't deal with everyone's outrage all at once! :D

 

Firstly let's NEVER forget our own government's involvement in all of this. We borrowed heavily certainly over the last 10 years more than we were bringing in (running a deficit) when we were in boom because the government was putting nothing away for a rainy day (I'm not even going into selling our gold at record bottom prices thank you Gordon) so we were living beyond our means as a country long before the banking crisis happened.

 

To pretend this is all just to do with the "bad old tories" is just fantasy, Labour are in this up to their ears and their solution to put a bit more on the country's credit card bill and hope for the best is just as, if not more so, reckless than what the current government is doing. The EU is nothing more or less than the wishes of Germany and France combined, the fact that they hold much of the purse strings makes this so.

 

Anyway this link GDP% contributed by financial services shows how much Corporation tax they contibute (it's an old article I grant you from 2006) but for years the sector was a cash cow for the UK government, who used that money (in addition to borrowing) instead of taxing us more for the things we want, hospitals, NHS etc.

 

I'm not an apologista for the banks, they have behaved appaulingly, but neither do I think that we just up the amount they have to pay and they just say "OK it's a fair cop" we want the money back BUT they need to be here to pay it, better to have 30 millionaires paying 20% tax than 3 paying 50% ( a simplified example I know).

 

If the euro is sinking then isn't it better to grab the dingy now. There are reports (unconfirmed of course) that the Germans are thinking of new Deutschmark denominations- interesting.

What a farce. The national interest is protected with the UK at the heart of negotiations with us working WITH the eurozone nations and the wider EU to find the best solution to the crisis. If no solution is found, or one that isn't ideal for us because we've opted out of everything :manson: , then it badly affects us which is hardly in the national interest. IF the Eurozone collapses and the EU heads for a double dip recession we are going to be in a deeper hole than the vast majority of the EU. With the damage that the ConDems have already done to our economy and it's fragile recovery, our BIGGEST trading partner hitting the shitter would kill our economy stone cold dead.

Everytime the Tory's open their mouths over Europe and the further Camoron pushes us away from the EU the less work Salmond and the SNP has to do to convince me to vote for Independence over DevoMax. At this rate it won't be long before I'm campaigning WITH the SNP for Independence. (Shocking I know)

If there is a referendum on EU membership I can see England voting to leave, Scotland (and, possibly Wales and Northern Ireland) voting to stay. That would play right into Salmond's hands.

I actually agree that Greece should default, leave the EU and go back to a devalued Drachma, which was probably what Papandreou was going to do if he'd gotten his Referendum... I think that is genuinely the only way out for them.. Italy on the other hand has something like $500bn in gold reserves, which, no doubt, the Banksters would dearly love to get their mitts on.....

 

BUT, that does not mean to say that Cameron made the right decision. As much as there is wrong with the EU and, god knows it certainly needs reforming, we're better off inside than out...

There we're arguing about exciting the EU- i think it's too early in the day to say that yet but certainly not in getting deeper seems sensible at the moment

When it comes to the EU, I'm one of those freaks that absolutely LOVES the whole idea of Europe co-operating strongly and working together closely. I think it's the best was to keep Europe competitive against the BRIC's and the emerging economies of South America and SE Asia. Just look at Australia. They've tied themselves to SE Asia and their economy is BOOMING because their trading partners have growing economies. Together as a single entity Europe can gain greatly from trade pacts.

 

I actually think the ECB should be made the lender of last resort to ALL Eurozone nations, which would calm the markets INSTANTLY. Merkel needs to bite the bullet and ride the back lash. While it'll cause a bit of agro for her, that'll die down when the markets calm down and the Eurozone calmly inches back from the brink just long enough for there to be a fix put in place.

I actually agree there is nothing to stop us trading and Co-operating with Europe. The main problem is that we need to become COMPETITIVE, those markets are, and will continue, to undercut us and produce goods cheaper than we can simply because they do not have things such as the minimum wage and the Tax demands that we have placed on ourselves (through needing to pay welfare, NHS etc). It may be desireable to have those things but the reality is that it prevents us, economically, from challenging most of those nations. I don't know what the answer is but we need to face up to economical truths. We now have a standard of living which exceeds most of our economies which is how we got a structural deficit in the first place.

If there is a referendum on EU membership I can see England voting to leave, Scotland (and, possibly Wales and Northern Ireland) voting to stay. That would play right into Salmond's hands.

I think you're right. The SNP have always made it very clear that staying part of the EU is part and parcel of the independence deal. Which is something I've always liked. The English do tend to be more Eurosceptic than the rest of the country, also Fife NE seem to like UKIP with the posho's not being fans of the EU.

 

 

Iirc the highest instance of BNP/UKIP vote is from England.