I actually agree there is nothing to stop us trading and Co-operating with Europe. The main problem is that we need to become COMPETITIVE, those markets are, and will continue, to undercut us and produce goods cheaper than we can simply because they do not have things such as the minimum wage and the Tax demands that we have placed on ourselves (through needing to pay welfare, NHS etc). It may be desireable to have those things but the reality is that it prevents us, economically, from challenging most of those nations. I don't know what the answer is but we need to face up to economical truths. We now have a standard of living which exceeds most of our economies which is how we got a structural deficit in the first place.

Britain is by no means alone in having a minimum wage. Besides, if the minimum wage is scrapped, the welfare bill will increase as more people will need to have their income supplemented with benefits.

Britain is by no means alone in having a minimum wage. Besides, if the minimum wage is scrapped, the welfare bill will increase as more people will need to have their income supplemented with benefits.

The point is that the countries we are competing with have NEITHER. I'm not advocating scrapping either just pointing out some of the reasons that we have failed to compete with those countries now that they have "embraced" shall we say capitalism

Ok wait a minute I can't deal with everyone's outrage all at once! :D

 

Firstly let's NEVER forget our own government's involvement in all of this. We borrowed heavily certainly over the last 10 years more than we were bringing in (running a deficit) when we were in boom because the government was putting nothing away for a rainy day (I'm not even going into selling our gold at record bottom prices thank you Gordon) so we were living beyond our means as a country long before the banking crisis happened.

 

To pretend this is all just to do with the "bad old tories" is just fantasy, Labour are in this up to their ears and their solution to put a bit more on the country's credit card bill and hope for the best is just as, if not more so, reckless than what the current government is doing. The EU is nothing more or less than the wishes of Germany and France combined, the fact that they hold much of the purse strings makes this so.

 

Anyway this link GDP% contributed by financial services shows how much Corporation tax they contibute (it's an old article I grant you from 2006) but for years the sector was a cash cow for the UK government, who used that money (in addition to borrowing) instead of taxing us more for the things we want, hospitals, NHS etc.

 

I'm not an apologista for the banks, they have behaved appaulingly, but neither do I think that we just up the amount they have to pay and they just say "OK it's a fair cop" we want the money back BUT they need to be here to pay it, better to have 30 millionaires paying 20% tax than 3 paying 50% ( a simplified example I know).

 

If the euro is sinking then isn't it better to grab the dingy now. There are reports (unconfirmed of course) that the Germans are thinking of new Deutschmark denominations- interesting.

That article leaves out how much of that tax paid by the financial services industry goes straight back into their coffers in the form of tax relief on pension contributions. Restricting that to the basic rate of tax would save £7 billion per year. Labour finally decided they wanted to do it shortly before they lost the election, the Lib Dems want to do it. It's just the Tories who are standing in the way.

The point is that the countries we are competing with have NEITHER. I'm not advocating scrapping either just pointing out some of the reasons that we have failed to compete with those countries now that they have "embraced" shall we say capitalism

So we get the typical Tory solution. Let the people at the top compete to see who can pay themselves the most and make sure that the "little people" have their benefits reduced to match the very worst.

 

The whole point of the single market is to achieve something like a level playing field within the EU. That idiot Cameron claims to support the single market but then says he wants Britain to abide by a different set of rules from everyone else. We already fail to implement the working time directive in full, unlike the rest of the EU. Now Cameron wants to ignore any other rule he and his party's paymasters don't like. You know, revolutionary things like the right to paid holiday.

To be fair, China and such like have a much lower cost of living which goes hand in hand with their lower wages. It may be cheaper to build there but a company has to add in transportation costs and the risk of lower quality materials/end goods if the UK was to actually invest in the manufacturing sector by encouraging companies to manufacture here and helping people to train/retrain to make our labour force into a well trained, high skilled one that is worth the premium to ensure that the end goods are of a high quality, not only this but we are so close to the major European markets and the States that transport costs are lower.

 

The Minimum Wage Act isn't a problem, it's the lack of investment in the industry and the workforce that is hampering our ability to be effective and competitive. The minimum wage act is vital to ensure that people in this country get paid a fair wage (it's currently miles bellow what it should be, especially in London) for the work they do. As for tax, our Corporation Tax levels may not be as low as the State of Delaware or the Republic of Ireland but the levels are actually reasonable. I spent part of the final year of my accounting degree on Corporation Tax.

That article leaves out how much of that tax paid by the financial services industry goes straight back into their coffers in the form of tax relief on pension contributions. Restricting that to the basic rate of tax would save £7 billion per year. Labour finally decided they wanted to do it shortly before they lost the election, the Lib Dems want to do it. It's just the Tories who are standing in the way.

How miraculous- 13 yrs in power (and let's be honest if they really were the Labour party they should have been attending to this long before the banking crisis happened) and only just before they lose an election they decide what to do about it? Genius.

How miraculous- 13 yrs in power (and let's be honest if they really were the Labour party they should have been attending to this long before the banking crisis happened) and only just before they lose an election they decide what to do about it? Genius.

 

I think the phrase you're looking for is "better late than never"

So we get the typical Tory solution. Let the people at the top compete to see who can pay themselves the most and make sure that the "little people" have their benefits reduced to match the very worst.

 

The whole point of the single market is to achieve something like a level playing field within the EU. That idiot Cameron claims to support the single market but then says he wants Britain to abide by a different set of rules from everyone else. We already fail to implement the working time directive in full, unlike the rest of the EU. Now Cameron wants to ignore any other rule he and his party's paymasters don't like. You know, revolutionary things like the right to paid holiday.

You may be right but let us not forget how much France also chooses to pick and choose which parts it wants to abide by (as indeed most of the major players probably do. Remember its fines in connection with the treatment of romany gypsies? Wonder if that's been paid?

 

Oh Suedehead will we ever agree? :D

So we get the typical Tory solution. Let the people at the top compete to see who can pay themselves the most and make sure that the "little people" have their benefits reduced to match the very worst.

 

The whole point of the single market is to achieve something like a level playing field within the EU. That idiot Cameron claims to support the single market but then says he wants Britain to abide by a different set of rules from everyone else. We already fail to implement the working time directive in full, unlike the rest of the EU. Now Cameron wants to ignore any other rule he and his party's paymasters don't like. You know, revolutionary things like the right to paid holiday.

Exactly! Closer EU co-operation would insure standardisation of the markets across the EU making it easier for companies to trade across the borders which would increase competitiveness across the entire EU and lead to potentially more profits which leads to more corporation tax being collected and more money being pumped into our economy.

 

 

Their refusal to implement the Working Time Directive is just disgusting tbh.

I think the phrase you're looking for is "better late than never"

If that's the best you expect from politicians then yes :D

 

or the word "convenient"

Ok wait a minute I can't deal with everyone's outrage all at once! :D

 

Firstly let's NEVER forget our own government's involvement in all of this. We borrowed heavily certainly over the last 10 years more than we were bringing in (running a deficit) when we were in boom because the government was putting nothing away for a rainy day (I'm not even going into selling our gold at record bottom prices thank you Gordon) so we were living beyond our means as a country long before the banking crisis happened.

 

To pretend this is all just to do with the "bad old tories" is just fantasy, Labour are in this up to their ears and their solution to put a bit more on the country's credit card bill and hope for the best is just as, if not more so, reckless than what the current government is doing. The EU is nothing more or less than the wishes of Germany and France combined, the fact that they hold much of the purse strings makes this so.

 

Anyway this link GDP% contributed by financial services shows how much Corporation tax they contibute (it's an old article I grant you from 2006) but for years the sector was a cash cow for the UK government, who used that money (in addition to borrowing) instead of taxing us more for the things we want, hospitals, NHS etc.

 

I'm not an apologista for the banks, they have behaved appaulingly, but neither do I think that we just up the amount they have to pay and they just say "OK it's a fair cop" we want the money back BUT they need to be here to pay it, better to have 30 millionaires paying 20% tax than 3 paying 50% ( a simplified example I know).

 

If the euro is sinking then isn't it better to grab the dingy now. There are reports (unconfirmed of course) that the Germans are thinking of new Deutschmark denominations- interesting.

 

You assume that I think that last "Labour" government were anything other than Tories in disguise.. As far as I'm concerned, Blair and Brown were just as bad as Thatcher and Major ever were... Governments borrow heavily because too many Corporations and millionaires are using tax-avoidance measures, and they get away with it because so-called "democratically elected" governments are in hock to them.. Big Money should be out of politics, this is the whole problem as I see it, both here and in the US, these people and their lobbyists have far too much power, they buy-off politicians.. Follow the money, look to who the big campaign contributers are, it's J P Morgan, Goldman Sachs, the City, Wall Street, wealthy Landowners, Corporations... "Liberalised Democracy" is bullshit, it's all bought and paid for, what we need is a Revolution, which is why I support the Occupy Movement 100%, it's ordinary people wanting to take back the rights they always should have had....

You assume that I think that last "Labour" government were anything other than Tories in disguise.. As far as I'm concerned, Blair and Brown were just as bad as Thatcher and Major ever were... Governments borrow heavily because too many Corporations and millionaires are using tax-avoidance measures, and they get away with it because so-called "democratically elected" governments are in hock to them.. Big Money should be out of politics, this is the whole problem as I see it, both here and in the US, these people and their lobbyists have far too much power, they buy-off politicians.. Follow the money, look to who the big campaign contributers are, it's J P Morgan, Goldman Sachs, the City, Wall Street, wealthy Landowners, Corporations... "Liberalised Democracy" is bullshit, it's all bought and paid for, what we need is a Revolution, which is why I support the Occupy Movement 100%, it's ordinary people wanting to take back the rights they always should have had....

I agree with you entirely. My Response was to both you and Silas so aplogies for not making that clear. Governments also borrow heavily to fulfill election promises that they either don't cost up properly or in an unforseen manner cost more than was first thought. The more power taken away from politicians the better on that we agree- be that UK ones or those in Europe. A lot of what I see in Europe is basically Merkosy imposing their will and throwing authority around. Merkal made it clear that she would give no exceptions to the plan- isn't that what the current government did to the trade unions earlier this year in relation to pensions? They get almost universally criticised for it yet in this instance its somehow different.

How miraculous- 13 yrs in power (and let's be honest if they really were the Labour party they should have been attending to this long before the banking crisis happened) and only just before they lose an election they decide what to do about it? Genius.

Hence my use of the word "finally". They should have done it years ago. the imposition of the 50% tax rate made the proportion of tax relief going to the wealthiest even greater but that's still a feeble excuse for not ending this anomaly early in their term of office. Had they done so, it's highly unlikely that the current government would have spent even as much as five minutes considering the merits of reversing it.

You may be right but let us not forget how much France also chooses to pick and choose which parts it wants to abide by (as indeed most of the major players probably do. Remember its fines in connection with the treatment of romany gypsies? Wonder if that's been paid?

 

Oh Suedehead will we ever agree? :D

The UK often implements directives (apart from the Working Time Directive) by the letter even when it's silly. Other countries apply a bit of common sense and, for example, exempt small operations. For example, there was a directive relating to cheese production. The French decided not to apply it to "the bloke making a bit of cheese in his garden shed". To me, that's just common sense particularly if it is clear to the public. After all, that sort of person is likely to sell only to local customers who can go and see for themselves what the premises are like. They can then decide whether or not they are happy to buy the product. OTOH, if it is mass produced somewhere, it is reasonable for a customer to expect that certain standards are maintained and policed by someone else on their behalf.

The UK often implements directives (apart from the Working Time Directive) by the letter even when it's silly. Other countries apply a bit of common sense and, for example, exempt small operations. For example, there was a directive relating to cheese production. The French decided not to apply it to "the bloke making a bit of cheese in his garden shed". To me, that's just common sense particularly if it is clear to the public. After all, that sort of person is likely to sell only to local customers who can go and see for themselves what the premises are like. They can then decide whether or not they are happy to buy the product. OTOH, if it is mass produced somewhere, it is reasonable for a customer to expect that certain standards are maintained and policed by someone else on their behalf.

There's quite a difference really in the persecution of a section of the population in a country and cheese rules though. Another example beef ban again France was fined £100,000 a day by the EU for refusing to lift the ban on British beef back in the 90s- still unpaid by 2002 when the EU dropped the fine due to the fact that as soon as they started formal proceedings France relented and the fine could not be imposed retrospectively. I use these purely to illustrate the fact some of the biggest players simply act like they have exemptions even if they don't, it's a new thing Cameron has done.

Edited December 12, 201113 yr by Dasher76

The French were wrong about the beef ban, simple as that. If they had allowed British beef in and labelled it as such then French customers could have decided for themselves whether to buy it.

 

Of course, the anti-EU press completely overlooked the fact that the EU was the first country or group of countries to lift the ban. The US continued to ban British beef for many years. Perhaps the anti-EU Tories with a large number of farmers in their constituency would like to ponder on that.

The UK often implements directives (apart from the Working Time Directive) by the letter even when it's silly. Other countries apply a bit of common sense and, for example, exempt small operations. For example, there was a directive relating to cheese production. The French decided not to apply it to "the bloke making a bit of cheese in his garden shed". To me, that's just common sense particularly if it is clear to the public. After all, that sort of person is likely to sell only to local customers who can go and see for themselves what the premises are like. They can then decide whether or not they are happy to buy the product. OTOH, if it is mass produced somewhere, it is reasonable for a customer to expect that certain standards are maintained and policed by someone else on their behalf.

 

That's a good point.. Take the Pub Smoking ban for example as well, many of Germany's federal States, for example, dont actually enforce it... A lot of it is down to interpretation...

 

That's a good point.. Take the Pub Smoking ban for example as well, many of Germany's federal States, for example, dont actually enforce it... A lot of it is down to interpretation...

The smoking ban is nothing to do with the EU.

For example Greek farmers and agricultural firms were given billions in subsidies from the EU to improve their technology etc and what did they actually do with it? they spent it on mercedes for themselves and funding a better lifestyle based on debt (that's in the programme spoke by a Greek economist I believe) basically the EU have done all of this without properly monitoring WHAT the money was ACTUALLY spent on. It's all very well saying NOW we want to monitor it but it's all far too late.

 

This is so biased and stereotypical. If you have ever had to deal with European subsidies, you would know that they are among the hardest to obtain, and they are very strictly ruled. You can't mess with EU money, and there's always so many conditions attached to those subsidies.

Only because you think you have heard some unknown Greek economists talking about some unknown Greek farmers taking advantages of European subsidaries doesn't mean it's a the truth or a common thing.

 

For all it's worth, I think the EU is the only way to get out of this crisis, and our countries won't be able to get out of the water if they play the game on their own and refuse to cooperate with their neighboors.

 

Not to mention the History of our continent which is a sufficient reason on its own to cooperate and to work together as a whole.

This is so biased and stereotypical. If you have ever had to deal with European subsidies, you would know that they are among the hardest to obtain, and they are very strictly ruled. You can't mess with EU money, and there's always so many conditions attached to those subsidies.

Only because you think you have heard some unknown Greek economists talking about some unknown Greek farmers taking advantages of European subsidaries doesn't mean it's a the truth or a common thing.

 

For all it's worth, I think the EU is the only way to get out of this crisis, and our countries won't be able to get out of the water if they play the game on their own and refuse to cooperate with their neighboors.

 

Not to mention the History of our continent which is a sufficient reason on its own to cooperate and to work together as a whole.

Exactly. And that's not to mention its role in upholding democracy. I'm old enough to remember when Spain, Portugal and Greece were under right wing dictatorships. Their membership of the EU has played a major role in building democracy in those countries. Don't forget there was a (rather farcical) attempted coup in Spain just before they joined. The EU is now in a position to do the same to countries in the former Soviet bloc and Soviet Union. We should be proud to be part of such an organisation.