Ray had a programme on ITVBe though!! :kink:

 

Indeed, not winning isn't always a guarantee of being more successful, but I do think Fleur could be one of those who succeeds despite not winning. The same for Ben actually. I'd say this is the strongest Top 2 since 2010... possibly even 2008, in terms of potential commercial appeal.

basically it's about what fanbase gets you to the final, if you've got the old dears behind you then you're f***ed. Mother's Day record and that's your lot. after all they base their judgment on doe eye factor and shyness, the music doesn't a bit to them!

and what an anti--climax having personality-vacuum, formerly alleged drug dealer tulisa sitting. i'm sure she'll hope this moment in the spotlight will relight her career.

If anything I think it's better for Ben to come second not just because I prefer fleur but also because we've seen how they handle male winners and I do think Ben has potential still so it'd be a shame if they handled him like they have some woinners in the past. But I'm not sure what would come of Fleur if she won, they haven't had a winner like that before. I'd say she's closest to Little Mix's second album I guess? It'll be interesting to see if she does change up the winner's single, they haven't done that before really but I think it's what they might need for it to sell well again.

 

 

Although I agree Syco are not the best, I think the main criteria for doing well is whether Simon believes you are worth investing in. In this regard coming first or second is irrelevant. I think (and hope) that he has seen enough of the reaction to Ben and the kind of fan base to see enough potential to give him a fair chance. IF he wins of course. Both are signed regardless imo.

basically it's about what fanbase gets you to the final, if you've got the old dears behind you then you're f***ed. Mother's Day record and that's your lot. after all they base their judgment on doe eye factor and shyness, the music doesn't a bit to them!

 

How patronising of you. I assume when you get older (whatever age you deem that to be) you are ready for your opinion to dismissed as worthless.

not patronising at all, there has been a clear model throughout of the various series of a pleasent but unremarkable contestant getting towards the end. maloney, nicholas, ray. people simply aren't voting on musical ability. of course i'm not saying all old people are that way but what 20-something would have voted nicholas through week after week, there's nothing for anyone under the age of 50 to get from what they offer.

I think Jake is somewhat right, I agree with the general point. A lot of the older population watching won't buy music, but that doesn't mean they won't vote. They're more likely to vote for whoever is nice, relatable and normal (ie Ben in this case, Matt or Sam for example in previous years) but they won't buy their records afterwards. I think that's why voting success on these shows doesn't always correlate into sales or success and why people who struggle in the voting and finish low-ish (ie Ella) can still do well for themselves.

 

Ray had a programme on ITVBe though!! :kink:

 

Indeed, not winning isn't always a guarantee of being more successful, but I do think Fleur could be one of those who succeeds despite not winning. The same for Ben actually. I'd say this is the strongest Top 2 since 2010... possibly even 2008, in terms of potential commercial appeal.

Definitely, this is the only one since Rebecca and Matt where both really have a chance given the right opportunities. Marcus, Jahmene, Nicholas and Sam even were doomed from the start in some ways.

 

On another note, as for Andrea it's better if he gets someone else to sign him because looking at the songs he sang for most weeks I'm worried Syco would give him a mothers' day covers album or something like that but with a voice like his he's worth so much more.

and what an anti--climax having personality-vacuum, formerly alleged drug dealer tulisa sitting. i'm sure she'll hope this moment in the spotlight will relight her career.

Aw, I thought she was really good last night, 100x better than Cheryl in her comments last night. She actually sounds like she cares and is listening to their vocals as opposed to whether they look nice.

the question is realistically what can andrea achieve at another label other than? he is a humble and pleasant man with a great voice but that isn't enough, he would need to court a younger demographic and by releasing what? diva ballads. he is just one of the unfortunates the maths of x factor fooks over

not patronising at all, there has been a clear model throughout of the various series of a pleasent but unremarkable contestant getting towards the end. maloney, nicholas, ray. people simply aren't voting on musical ability. of course i'm not saying all old people are that way but what 20-something would have voted nicholas through week after week, there's nothing for anyone under the age of 50 to get from what they offer.

 

 

But that is where your point falls down. Its not only 20 year olds that buy music. There are all sorts of reasons people vote and image/likeability is massive for most of the contestants. I doubt as many people would be voting for Fleur if she was dancing around like that 2 stone heavier or for Ben if he wasn't so good looking. Its a combination of things. Don't get me wrong I would never vote for any of those contestants you listed but most are influenced by something other than the "talent" which is subjective anyway.

It's not even the looks being emphasised that gets me for Ben. It's when people keep saying how nice and normal he is, as if Fleur and indeed the rest of the finalists are alien or really horrible people. I'm sure they're all nice people but it isn't Surprise Surprise; they're is going for a record contract not a chance for Holly Willoughby to have it arranged so their kitchen can be renovated. Good looks (in Ben's case, and Fleur's I suppose as she is stunning) are sadly key to being a success in most cases, whereas being nice and normal isn't really. Nobody thinks "I bet she'd make sure you had a cup of tea when you were at her house, I must buy her cd".

i think it's very clear the voting bias down the line and it's the gulf between middle england wanting someone nice and normal and more often than not male and on the other end of things, females with masses of ability leave midway through as we still live in an age where a confident female is seen as a bad thing.(it's these contrasts that have been the reason as to why very few long term credible stars have been born) ultimately fleur has done very well to get to the final when tbh all the odds were stacked against her from the get-go.

 

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It's not even the looks being emphasised that gets me for Ben. It's when people keep saying how nice and normal he is, as if Fleur and indeed the rest of the finalists are alien or really horrible people. I'm sure they're all nice people but it isn't Surprise Surprise; they're is going for a record contract not a chance for Holly Willoughby to have it arranged so their kitchen can be renovated. Good looks (in Ben's case, and Fleur's I suppose as she is stunning) are sadly key to being a success in most cases, whereas being nice and normal isn't really. Nobody thinks "I bet she'd make sure you had a cup of tea when you were at her house, I must buy her cd".

 

That's true but it really helps if people like you. I mean look at Alexandra as an example of an XF contestant. I like her but she has some qualities that make her unlikeable to a lot of people. Having people want to route for you is massive. Look at Olly Murs. he is so average its criminal but people seem to warm to him (he's so down to earth etc etc) is all I ever hear. His terrible singing seems to be irrelevant :) As for Ben his looks are a massive plus and what imo can give him a better shot than previous male winners.

Edited December 14, 201410 yr by torresgirl

I agree that people aren't voting based on who's actually a POPSTAR, and that's why I think we've had so many flop winners - not because winning is a poisoned chalice, just because the public haven't voted for the most commercial person. I don't think Olly Murs would have done any differently if he won, for example!

But that is where your point falls down. Its not only 20 year olds that buy music. There are all sorts of reasons people vote and image/likeability is massive for most of the contestants. I doubt as many people would be voting for Fleur if she was dancing around like that 2 stone heavier or for Ben if he wasn't so good looking. Its a combination of things. Don't get me wrong I would never vote for any of those contestants you listed but most are influenced by something other than the "talent" which is subjective anyway.

how many 20 year old musicians do you know with, lets call it an older fanbase? a big age gap simply doesn't work in the music industry world, it's unmarketable and it's why the mother's day model has been used to ad infinium.

 

i'd argue that a lot of people really do vote on trivial terms. we are here on a music forum so we are going to be critical about performance, people watch it at a more superficial level. the british people loves seeing humble, normal people on the television, chasing their dream. it just doesn't make for a viable popstar after because the very reason you make it as a popstar is because you aren't normal.

 

fleur has been very lucky as being both black and female are normally never taken up the public through indirect racism. i think her coming across as a thoroughly lovely girl helps too and we the brits love an underdog and get behind them.and she possesses that one ingredient which goes a long way: genuine star presence.

As for Ben his looks are a massive plus and what imo can give him a better shot than previous male winners.

I know I'm biased but I don't agree with this at all, personally I'd put Matt and certainly Shayne leagues above him looks wise and definitely vocally. They were both nice, normal blokes (Matt has been a bit more controversial personality wise since but not too much) too. I just don't see what Ben has that previous male winners don't, other than the fact he's a bit more rocky but that depends on him being given the right material which you can't always trust Syco with:lol: Fleur has the fact she can rap and puts on a bigger performance than most guest performers for example.

fleur has been very lucky as being both black and female are normally never taken up the public through indirect racism. i think her coming across as a thoroughly lovely girl helps too and we the brits love an underdog and get behind them.and she possesses that one ingredient which goes a long way: genuine star presence.

 

I hate to say it but the opening sentence was kind of why I thought she'd be out early on. :( The public rarely take to singers like her on The X Factor but thankfully she proved herself to be way more than Lorna from last year, more than just a "nice voice", she's an all-rounder, has a lovely personality and has been shown as an underdog, a bit of a dark horse for the win. She kept impressing week on week and no-one thought she was in any danger each week, but I know until a few weeks ago I never really considered her making the top 2 as an option! :o

I hate to say it but the opening sentence was kind of why I thought she'd be out early on. :( The public rarely take to singers like her on The X Factor but thankfully she proved herself to be way more than Lorna from last year, more than just a "nice voice", she's an all-rounder, has a lovely personality and has been shown as an underdog, a bit of a dark horse for the win. She kept impressing week on week and no-one thought she was in any danger each week, but I know until a few weeks ago I never really considered her making the top 2 as an option! :o

I remember me and my friend loving Fleur on week 1, but we both said "let's not support her too much or get too invested so we don't get too angry when she goes in week 3", but by week 3 or 4 I stated to think "she's gonna last a while". It wasn't even until maybe Bang Bang though if started to let myself believe "she could actually win!"

how many 20 year old musicians do you know with, lets call it an older fanbase? a big age gap simply doesn't work in the music industry world, it's unmarketable and it's why the mother's day model has been used to ad infinium.

 

i'd argue that a lot of people really do vote on trivial terms. we are here on a music forum so we are going to be critical about performance, people watch it at a more superficial level. the british people loves seeing humble, normal people on the television, chasing their dream. it just doesn't make for a viable popstar after because the very reason you make it as a popstar is because you aren't normal.

 

fleur has been very lucky as being both black and female are normally never taken up the public through indirect racism. i think her coming across as a thoroughly lovely girl helps too and we the brits love an underdog and get behind them.and she possesses that one ingredient which goes a long way: genuine star presence.

 

I doubt many 50 year olds buy One Direction records that's true but you are still missing the point. Older people buy a lot of music and isn't all about 20 year olds buying fellow young people's music. Artists like Ed Sheeran, even Buble etc are bought by teenagers to the middle-aged and that is why they are so successful. They appeal to a wide demographic. Also being successful is not all about itunes. There are many singers who are not #1 but make a living performing live and selling consistently smaller amounts. There is a market for older people as well as the young. They just have to be marketed right. An example Joe McElderry won the show but his first album was marketed at the completely wrong audience and flopped. His second played to his strengths and his audience more and sold 3 times as more and was successful. I doubt many teenagers bought that album. Also racism will have nothing to do with it if Fleur comes second! Look at Alex and JLS, people voted in their millions for both because they were great.

Edited December 14, 201410 yr by torresgirl

I know I'm biased but I don't agree with this at all, personally I'd put Matt and certainly Shayne leagues above him looks wise and definitely vocally. They were both nice, normal blokes (Matt has been a bit more controversial personality wise since but not too much) too. I just don't see what Ben has that previous male winners don't, other than the fact he's a bit more rocky but that depends on him being given the right material which you can't always trust Syco with:lol: Fleur has the fact she can rap and puts on a bigger performance than most guest performers for example.

 

 

Matt better looking? Yikes. That is subjective but Matt did not have the right personality. He was nowhere near as likeable. Shayne was very nice looking but Ben is better imo. Also Shayne was the most successful of the male winners so the point I'm making has some validity there. He did well for a while with not great material and his looks definitely helped him.