The same applies to Brexit - there were slightly more ordinary people who decided that the EU was detrimental to them/the country, than vice versa. Clearly they mistrusted the experts advising them to vote Remain, as simply wanting to keep their snouts in the trough.

You're making the gigantic assumption again that the "elite" overwhelmingly backed Remain, and therefore the result was a total rejection of said elite in favour of a majority of ordinary voters. If those running the press aren't part of the elite then the whole term is meaningless.

 

As for whether Cameron could have chosen not to promise a referendum - there was a clear strategic case for it in terms of doing slightly better in an election, but while that explains his decision it doesn't justify it. As for whether UKIP could have held the balance of power and demanded one anyway, that's a massive hypothetical. I'm not sure that the referendum pledge was a deciding factor in the dozen or so seats UKIP would have needed to win off the Tories to be a significant factor in a hung parliament.

You're making the gigantic assumption again that the "elite" overwhelmingly backed Remain, and therefore the result was a total rejection of said elite in favour of a majority of ordinary voters. If those running the press aren't part of the elite then the whole term is meaningless.

 

Quite so - which is why I do not use that term. I prefer (Political) 'Establishment'.

 

 

As for whether Cameron could have chosen not to promise a referendum - there was a clear strategic case for it in terms of doing slightly better in an election, but while that explains his decision it doesn't justify it. As for whether UKIP could have held the balance of power and demanded one anyway, that's a massive hypothetical. I'm not sure that the referendum pledge was a deciding factor in the dozen or so seats UKIP would have needed to win off the Tories to be a significant factor in a hung parliament. (*)

 

But I'm talking in terms of the GE following 2015 if the referendum had not happened. I doubt even the most ardent Remainers would claim that the UKUP vote would have collapsed in the next GE, if no referendum had been held.

 

(*) It might not necessarily have been the Tories they won them from - 5 of UKIP's best 8 target seats after 2015 were Labour held.

Edited August 24, 20177 yr by vidcapper

Quite so - which is why I do not use that term. I prefer (Political) 'Establishment'.

That's convenient.

 

It's not really useful to try and separate out the political and media establishments - they're inextricably linked in many ways, not least of which in that the majority of the time you hear from a senior politician it's through the media.

 

But I'm talking in terms of the GE following 2015 if the referendum had not happened. I doubt even the most ardent Remainers would claim that the UKUP vote would have collapsed in the next GE, if no referendum had been held.

 

(*) It might not necessarily have been the Tories they won them from - 5 of UKIP's best 8 target seats after 2015 were Labour held.

But it was the Tories who could have experienced an electoral boost in UKIP target seats by promising a referendum - Labour didn't promise one, so the results in Labour-held seats UKIP were targeting wouldn't have been any different.

ISTM this is a bit of a red herring, as even if he had not said that, there would still have been demands for a rerun.

 

Had we had a referendum on red herrings I think we all could have accepted the result quite happily....

 

Doesn't disguise the hypocrisy of farage "besties with Trump and Assange" who all have very selective views on what democracy actually means.

The same applies to Brexit - there were slightly more ordinary people who decided that the EU was detrimental to them/the country, than vice versa. Clearly they mistrusted the experts advising them to vote Remain, as simply wanting to keep their snouts in the trough.

 

based on confirmed lies by the Leave side of course, feel free to quote the truthful bits from the Leave campaign, I'm all agog in anticipation....

 

I believe we have been quite lengthy about the bits that Remain claimed and have proven to be true (already).

 

Which goes to prove people are gullible or stupid or too lazy to find out information for themselves?

That's convenient.

 

It's not really useful to try and separate out the political and media establishments - they're inextricably linked in many ways, not least of which in that the majority of the time you hear from a senior politician it's through the media.

 

But when they do it through social network sites, they tend to put their foot in it... :P

 

 

based on confirmed lies by the Leave side of course, feel free to quote the truthful bits from the Leave campaign, I'm all agog in anticipation....

 

How about 'vote for us, and we will leave the EU'

 

How about 'vote for us, and we will leave the EU'

 

Well, based on all the other lies, chances are still not zero that one will be too... :P

surprisingly good article on the state of Brexit right now from.....SKY!

 

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-the-ne...ctable-11019976

This is undoubtedly over-simplistic, but as I see it :

 

Remainer : Someone who voted to stay in, but accepts the democratic vote to leave.

 

Remoaner : Someone who voted to stay in, but rejects the democratic vote to leave.

 

ISTM the second position is much harder to justify.

This is undoubtedly over-simplistic, but as I see it :

 

Remainer : Someone who voted to stay in, but accepts the democratic vote to leave.

 

Remoaner : Someone who voted to stay in, but rejects the democratic vote to leave.

 

ISTM the second position is much harder to justify.

It isn't a matter of "rejecting" the result. I think it was a terrible decision and will continue to exercise my democratic right to argue in favour of remaining in the EU. I'm not going to change my mind simply because a small majority of people who voted on one day in June 2016 thought differently.

It isn't a matter of "rejecting" the result. I think it was a terrible decision and will continue to exercise my democratic right to argue in favour of remaining in the EU.

 

Without another referendum that simply isn't an option (*) , so the best you can probably hope for is for a referendum to rejoin at a future date.

 

(*) It would obviously involve rejecting the result of a referendum they gov't themselves called, and stated "this is your decision, we will implement what you decide". The political fallout would be enormous - both the Tories & Labour might well split on political lines, and the now quiescent UKIP would stage a resurgence.

 

I'm not going to change my mind simply because a small majority of people who voted on one day in June 2016 thought differently.

 

No-one is suggesting you should change your mind, as long as you realise that Leavers consider the reasons for their choice to be as valid as yours to Remain.

 

Without another referendum that simply isn't an option (*) , so the best you can probably hope for is for a referendum to rejoin at a future date.

 

(*) It would obviously involve rejecting the result of a referendum they gov't themselves called, and stated "this is your decision, we will implement what you decide". The political fallout would be enormous - both the Tories & Labour might well split on political lines, and the now quiescent UKIP would stage a resurgence.

No-one is suggesting you should change your mind, as long as you realise that Leavers consider the reasons for their choice to be as valid as yours to Remain.

 

Regardless of what anyone voted for the best solution is for the public to vote on the deal agreed by Team Twat. If the public think it's a good deal which will energise the UK, they vote to accept, if they see as a terrible deal which will ruin the economy (and have changed their minds after seeing all the lies materialise) then they vote against (which means remaining by implication).

 

Anyone who believes in democracy would be perfectly happy with that, given people voted Leave for many different reasons, not least empty promises of more money to the NHS....

 

Anyone who doesn't see that as perfectly reasonable is anti-democratic and doesn't have the best-intentions for the future of the UK - ie unpatriotic. And then everybody's opinion is perfectly valid because we are basing it on actual facts, not lies, promises, fear-mongering and threats.

Regardless of what anyone voted for the best solution is for the public to vote on the deal agreed by Team Twat. If the public think it's a good deal which will energise the UK, they vote to accept, if they see as a terrible deal which will ruin the economy (and have changed their minds after seeing all the lies materialise) then they vote against (which means remaining by implication).

 

In other words 'heads I win, tails you lose' from the Remain pov? :rolleyes:

 

You're assumption is wrong - rejecting a deal defaults to Hard Brexit.

 

How on earth could rejecting what the EU offered, mean we want to stay in? :wacko:

 

Anyone who believes in democracy would be perfectly happy with that, given people voted Leave for many different reasons, not least empty promises of more money to the NHS....

 

Incorrect again - just because the £350m proved no more than an election slogan, doesn't mean there wouldn't be more money for the NHS. We's still be up £8.5bn through ending our annual EU contribution.

 

 

 

 

Yay our economy is in the shitter, GDP has fallen by 10% but thank f*** we saved that 1% of our annual budget we were saving on EU membership

In other words 'heads I win, tails you lose' from the Remain pov? :rolleyes:

 

You're assumption is wrong - rejecting a deal defaults to Hard Brexit.

 

How on earth could rejecting what the EU offered, mean we want to stay in? :wacko:

Incorrect again - just because the £350m proved no more than an election slogan, doesn't mean there wouldn't be more money for the NHS. We's still be up £8.5bn through ending our annual EU contribution.

Oh just using the patriotic shite arguments of brexiteers against themselves.

 

Democracy is what the people want. That changes every 5 years or havent you noticed political changes according to circumstances?

 

Nothing is forever, not even fascist farage, currently sitting with nazis, nor the tory party when it all crashes down around them. 30 years from now the old voters will be dead and the current young people will dominate politics. They ardnt suddenly going to hate europe.

Taking the topic in a different direction...

 

Before the referendum, did you intend to respect the result, whatever it turned out to be?

Dunno if pledging to never judge public opinion on the outcome counts as respecting the result? I certainly never would have taken a Leave vote as carte blanche to do any Leave outcome no matter how extreme, any more than nobody would have ever taken a Remain vote as carte blanche to join the Euro and have ever closer union with the rest of the EU. Given the Leave campaign's leading figures mostly committed to keep us in the Single Market even if we voted Leave...

Edited September 13, 20177 yr by Qassändra

Incorrect again - just because the £350m proved no more than an election slogan, doesn't mean there wouldn't be more money for the NHS. We's still be up £8.5bn through ending our annual EU contribution.

Without considering how much we'd be down given it's difficult to forge a half-decent trade deal with the EU that involves making no contributions whatsoever.

Oh just using the patriotic shite arguments of brexiteers against themselves.

 

Democracy is what the people want. That changes every 5 years or havent you noticed political changes according to circumstances?

 

Then how come it took over 40 years for us to have a 2nd referendum on EU issue?

Then how come it took over 40 years for us to have a 2nd referendum on EU issue?

 

It wasn't an issue till Farge shit-stirred and Johnson bullshitted about all the regulations which we will end up keeping anyway, and all the immigrants which will still keep coming anyway (there's a huge lack of applicants for unfilled posts and we havent yet left - that means either immigrants take those posts at much higher pay rates to entice them into a country where the currency is doing very badly or those companies go out of business. That means less jobs, less tax income, even higher trillion-dollar deficits we owe as a country).

 

Note: Churchill and Thatcher were VERY pro-EU. It wasn't an issue except amongst a clear minority who took advantage of post-banking-crisis mood to promote lies and propaganda. Frankly I wish their HAD been a Brexit vote 20 years ago, as it would have lost clearly by some distance and we wouldnt be in the situation we are in now.

 

Going forward, as we are all already financially worse off - and still a member of the EU - people will see the lies about Brexit for what they are. People's opinions change at the drop of a hat when their wallet gets hit.

It wasn't an issue till Farge shit-stirred and Johnson bullshitted about all the regulations which we will end up keeping anyway, and all the immigrants which will still keep coming anyway (there's a huge lack of applicants for unfilled posts and we havent yet left - that means either immigrants take those posts at much higher pay rates to entice them into a country where the currency is doing very badly or those companies go out of business. That means less jobs, less tax income, even higher trillion-dollar deficits we owe as a country).

 

Note: Churchill and Thatcher were VERY pro-EU. It wasn't an issue except amongst a clear minority who took advantage of post-banking-crisis mood to promote lies and propaganda. Frankly I wish their HAD been a Brexit vote 20 years ago, as it would have lost clearly by some distance and we wouldnt be in the situation we are in now.

 

Going forward, as we are all already financially worse off - and still a member of the EU - people will see the lies about Brexit for what they are. People's opinions change at the drop of a hat when their wallet gets hit.

 

Then prepare to be disappointed yet again, people voted leave mostly because of sovereignty, the British people want the powers given to the EU over decades back in the UK, if there was a referendum on the Maastrict treaty signed in the 90's or the Lisbon treaty signed in shame by Gordon Brown then the UK would have chosen to leave the EU a lot sooner.

 

And to say Churchill and Thatcher was pro-EU is an absolute falsehood, Churchill always believed if the UK had a choice between Europe or the open seas, the UK would always choose the open seas, Brexit proves he was right. And Thatcher realised very quickly when she became Prime Minister that the EU was not all as it seems, once Thatcher knew a United States of Europe was coming, Thatcher quickly turned against the EU, check out the famous Bruges speech from her, it's no wonder soon after that speech EU fanatics from her own government Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine plotted her removal from Downing Street and unfortunately they succeeded.

 

Also I noticed none of the Remoaners here are talking about the sickening state of union speech from President Juncker yesterday when he confirmed on doubling down his mission for a United States of Europe. Thank God the British people voted OUT!

Edited September 14, 20177 yr by PeaceMob