Absolutely true. I am taking a hit on my work pension and collecting it early (in January) but working flexibly at the same time (part-time) because I've worked out Im better off with the hit (and then having it pacing inflation for 6 years) than waiting till another 6 years of no-pay-increases and the massive rises in inflation I'm expecting will make it worth f***-all by 2024.

 

So, in fact, I'm putting my money where my mouth is, unlike those I'm Alright Jack's who are already there who don't give a toss about those working till they are 70 on wages worth increasingly less).

 

I look forward to Brexiteers protestations when their benefits/pensions get hit as the economy goes tits up and they get outvoted by those who can see they are doing much worse and the pendulum swings the other way, and they get to work for peanuts on all those farms (as the Tories are suggesting), or die from lack of investment in the NHS. Let's see how keen they are in 5 years time eh?

 

Why do you see Brexit as *inevitably* being a failure?

 

After all, part of the Project Fear line was that disaster would ensure the very day after a Leave vote, but once that was proven to be as false as the infamous £350m/NHS claim, the goalposts have been regularly moved. Currently they are at 29/9/19, then will no doubt be shifted to the end of the transitional period - then after that, when...? ;)

 

As for a change of government, I simply cannot see that happening as long as Corbyn is Labour leader - his policies are just too left-wing for the political centre & right to swallow.

But most Brexiters will remember times of double-digit inflation & interest rates, so 3% is hardly going to intimidate them.

 

I found a useful graph on this subject (don't worry, it's not from the Mail). ;)

 

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/gr...at-britain.aspx

 

Not coincidentally, the highest levels were at a time when the trade unions were at their strongest, and virtually able to hold the country to ransom - a situation that might well reoccur if the country were unwise enough to elect Corbyn's union-loving Labour party to power.

Edited October 26, 20177 yr by vidcapper

So much for EU harmony...

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/870950...ws-eastern-bloc

 

Freedom Of Movement is one thing, but allowing circumvention of local labour laws is quite another - it puts local labour at an inherent disadvantage.

Why do you see Brexit as *inevitably* being a failure?

 

After all, part of the Project Fear line was that disaster would ensure the very day after a Leave vote, but once that was proven to be as false as the infamous £350m/NHS claim, the goalposts have been regularly moved. Currently they are at 29/9/19, then will no doubt be shifted to the end of the transitional period - then after that, when...? ;)

 

As for a change of government, I simply cannot see that happening as long as Corbyn is Labour leader - his policies are just too left-wing for the political centre & right to swallow.

 

I've talked about the facts at length, before, I dont see the point of rehashing it.

 

Did you not see the very troubling item on Newsnight last night about the state of the NHS? It's in crisis.

 

Project fear did not claim disaster would strike the next day following the referendum. "When we leave". The signs are already there, you choose to ignore them and cherry pick on the few pathetic "good news" stories that Rees-Mogg & co like to distort.

 

Corbyn. Anything can happen politically, we have just seen that everywhere.

I found a useful graph on this subject (don't worry, it's not from the Mail). ;)

 

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/gr...at-britain.aspx

 

Not coincidentally, the highest levels were at a time when the trade unions were at their strongest, and virtually able to hold the country to ransom - a situation that might well reoccur if the country were unwise enough to elect Corbyn's union-loving Labour party to power.

 

Or another interpretation could be that the UK was in sheer economic shit before joining the EU, and that after a few years of settling down the economy settled down into a steady pattern. The right-wing blamed the unions for all the countries ills and gave no credit to the EU role in prosperity. What I said above about cherry-picking data to suit arguments that are fatuous.

So much for EU harmony...

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/870950...ws-eastern-bloc

 

Freedom Of Movement is one thing, but allowing circumvention of local labour laws is quite another - it puts local labour at an inherent disadvantage.

 

This is the Express. I can't read the article due to the annoying adverts it is selling to get hits, but I would imagine it's to do with jobs that locals don't want (or employers can't fill vacancies in other words). I look forward and praise in advance everyone on benefits volunteering to work in fields of crops and caring for severe dementia patients for little money rather than get benefits paid for by those who do. Plenty of vacancies for British workers to fill.....

 

By the way, I currently live-in care for no money whatsoever, (indeed I pay the bills to a large part for my parents) am older than anyone on Buzzjack, and also work a full-time job. So I kinda know what hard work and persevering in the face of exhausting adversity is. I am never not tired and I don't expect (nor receive) State help. How about you?

 

 

Why do you see Brexit as *inevitably* being a failure?

 

After all, part of the Project Fear line was that disaster would ensure the very day after a Leave vote, but once that was proven to be as false as the infamous £350m/NHS claim, the goalposts have been regularly moved. Currently they are at 29/9/19, then will no doubt be shifted to the end of the transitional period - then after that, when...? ;)

 

As for a change of government, I simply cannot see that happening as long as Corbyn is Labour leader - his policies are just too left-wing for the political centre & right to swallow.

At the risk of being boring there is a big difference between a blatant lie about an verifiable fact and a forecast that proved not to be accurate in every detail. The difference is made even greater when one of the reasons for the difference between forecast and reality is that the Bank Of England spent tens of billions of pounds trying to prevent the bleakest forecasts coming true.

Trying to find an article when the Express even told a half truth about the EU.

 

 

Don’t wait for me... I’ll be a while. Probably forever

I've talked about the facts at length, before, I dont see the point of rehashing it.

 

Did you not see the very troubling item on Newsnight last night about the state of the NHS? It's in crisis.

 

Project fear did not claim disaster would strike the next day following the referendum. "When we leave". The signs are already there, you choose to ignore them and cherry pick on the few pathetic "good news" stories that Rees-Mogg & co like to distort.

 

Corbyn. Anything can happen politically, we have just seen that everywhere.

 

The NHS has been said to be 'in crisis' for as long as I can remember. :rolleyes:

 

What about George Osborne's 'emergency bredit budget threat? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/j...tes-to-leave-eu

 

When has this country ever elected a party with a leader as left-wing as Corbyn?

 

Or another interpretation could be that the UK was in sheer economic shit before joining the EU, and that after a few years of settling down the economy settled down into a steady pattern. The right-wing blamed the unions for all the countries ills and gave no credit to the EU role in prosperity. What I said above about cherry-picking data to suit arguments that are fatuous.

 

Must I point out again that the EU didn't even *exist* until the 1st Nov 1993? :teresa:

 

Seriously though, the EEC was pretty toothless when we joined in the 1970's, so could not have had the influence you ascribe to it above.

 

It wasn't until the early 80's that the power of the unions was broken, and that correlates far better with economic stabilisation than our joining the EEC.

 

**********************************

 

As for cherry-picking arguments - Remainers are just as guilty of confirmation bias. You've formed a hypothesis that Brexit must inevitably fail, and thus blame all bad economic news on Brexit, which dismissing any good news as 'just coincidental'.

How many more times? The emergency Budget was avoided by the Bank of England spending tens of billions of pounds on mitigating the effects of the referendum result.

How many more times? The emergency Budget was avoided by the Bank of England spending tens of billions of pounds on mitigating the effects of the referendum result.

 

The 'Emergency Budget' was proposed before the vote, but George Osborne must have known that a BoE intervention could have the same economic effect, thus making his threat hollow - but of course a Bank Of England intervention doesn't sound as intimidating as an Emergency Budget... ;)

The 'Emergency Budget' was proposed before the vote, but George Osborne must have known that a BoE intervention could have the same economic effect, thus making his threat hollow - but of course a Bank Of England intervention doesn't sound as intimidating as an Emergency Budget... ;)

OTOH, it didn't take much intelligence to work out that many of the things the Remain campaign talked about could be avoided in some way. The Leave campaign showed no sign of admitting how expensive those measures could be.

The NHS has been said to be 'in crisis' for as long as I can remember. :rolleyes:

 

What about George Osborne's 'emergency bredit budget threat? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/j...tes-to-leave-eu

 

When has this country ever elected a party with a leader as left-wing as Corbyn?

Must I point out again that the EU didn't even *exist* until the 1st Nov 1993? :teresa:

 

Seriously though, the EEC was pretty toothless when we joined in the 1970's, so could not have had the influence you ascribe to it above.

 

It wasn't until the early 80's that the power of the unions was broken, and that correlates far better with economic stabilisation than our joining the EEC.

 

**********************************

 

As for cherry-picking arguments - Remainers are just as guilty of confirmation bias. You've formed a hypothesis that Brexit must inevitably fail, and thus blame all bad economic news on Brexit, which dismissing any good news as 'just coincidental'.

 

 

1. Piss off. Sorry to be blunt you are utterly ignorant about the NHS. Anyone who has used the services (or lack of) or nearly died from lack of ambulance responses, or waited hours to be seen on trolleys in corridors, or been bed-blocked by people needing care homes that aren't there knows the truth. This is not propaganda this is verifiable fact and that you can find amusement in the deaths of people who aren't you speaks volumes. Things are getting worse by the month and will continue to decline while we have a party in power who is aiming to kill the NHS off by stealth (see Hunt, jeremy).

 

dead people, of course, can't vote or complain, or be a "burden" on the state.

 

2. There was a rescue. See Suedehead BofE comments. I'm not sticking up for Osbourne, one of the biggest twats in british politics ever. See, I'm not blinded to reality like some.

 

3. Suddenly the version of the EU we voted for in 1973 has no bearing on our economic prosperity? Deluded. Nitpcker. Our prosperity is not down to Unions being held under control - you might argue it HELPED, but to assign all blame and ignore economic facts is myopic in the extreme. Desperate Breixteers trying to find something, ANYTHING, to support their overwhelmingly fact-free cause.

 

4. You choose to ignore facts. That's the difference between us. I don't cherry-pick and I respond to every half-baked thing offered up as evidence and tear it down (or, occasionally, agree with). Scientists don't cherry-pick facts that support their assertions, they have to deal all facts presented and one by one take out the wrong ones. That's how I approach evidence. I don't go looking for data to support my pre-conceived ideas. If Brexit somehow looks wonderfully succesfully and politicians negotiate marvellous deals with the rest of the world that will be more than enough to convince anyone dealing in facts.

 

Theer is no evidence being provided by anyone that is the case now, or is going to be the case, other than rich people with agendas and wishful-thinking anti-democratic "call everyone a traitor" rhetoric as they try to bully everyone down into submission who doesn't support their lying, nasty tactics.

 

Finally, please feel free to offfer me up any evidence that I have provided that claims any "good news" is coincidental to Brexit. I must have written a whole bloody economic thesis in my replies to you by now, so you have plenty of opportunity to show me up. failing that, retract the statement as just an attempt on your part to make claims about someone you disagree with.

 

Sounds familiar as far as Brexiteer strategy goes.

 

Remainers use evidence to argue the case.

Brexiteers use accusations and lies and fantasy to argue the case.

 

In a nutshell.

 

 

 

 

 

1. Piss off. Sorry to be blunt you are utterly ignorant about the NHS. Anyone who has used the services (or lack of) or nearly died from lack of ambulance responses, or waited hours to be seen on trolleys in corridors, or been bed-blocked by people needing care homes that aren't there knows the truth. This is not propaganda this is verifiable fact and that you can find amusement in the deaths of people who aren't you speaks volumes. Things are getting worse by the month and will continue to decline while we have a party in power who is aiming to kill the NHS off by stealth (see Hunt, jeremy).

 

dead people, of course, can't vote or complain, or be a "burden" on the state.

 

2. There was a rescue. See Suedehead BofE comments. I'm not sticking up for Osbourne, one of the biggest twats in british politics ever. See, I'm not blinded to reality like some.

 

3. Suddenly the version of the EU we voted for in 1973 has no bearing on our economic prosperity? Deluded. Nitpcker. Our prosperity is not down to Unions being held under control - you might argue it HELPED, but to assign all blame and ignore economic facts is myopic in the extreme. Desperate Breixteers trying to find something, ANYTHING, to support their overwhelmingly fact-free cause.

 

4. You choose to ignore facts. That's the difference between us. I don't cherry-pick and I respond to every half-baked thing offered up as evidence and tear it down (or, occasionally, agree with). Scientists don't cherry-pick facts that support their assertions, they have to deal all facts presented and one by one take out the wrong ones. That's how I approach evidence. I don't go looking for data to support my pre-conceived ideas. If Brexit somehow looks wonderfully succesfully and politicians negotiate marvellous deals with the rest of the world that will be more than enough to convince anyone dealing in facts.

 

Theer is no evidence being provided by anyone that is the case now, or is going to be the case, other than rich people with agendas and wishful-thinking anti-democratic "call everyone a traitor" rhetoric as they try to bully everyone down into submission who doesn't support their lying, nasty tactics.

 

Finally, please feel free to offfer me up any evidence that I have provided that claims any "good news" is coincidental to Brexit. I must have written a whole bloody economic thesis in my replies to you by now, so you have plenty of opportunity to show me up. failing that, retract the statement as just an attempt on your part to make claims about someone you disagree with.

 

Sounds familiar as far as Brexiteer strategy goes.

 

Remainers use evidence to argue the case.

Brexiteers use accusations and lies and fantasy to argue the case.

 

In a nutshell.

 

Now you are starting to get as abusive as 'Magic Pumpkin' (or whatever their latest nickname is) - it does you no credit.

Now you are starting to get as abusive as 'Magic Pumpkin' (or whatever their latest nickname is) - it does you no credit.

 

Try not to focus on the excalamation of frustration "piss off" which was not a personal abuse at you (followed by sorry, an apology), and focus on the content, and show a little concern for your fellow human beings instead like most of us on here do.

Try not to focus on the excalamation of frustration "piss off" which was not a personal abuse at you (followed by sorry, an apology), and focus on the content, and show a little concern for your fellow human beings instead like most of us on here do.

 

But you could simply have omitted the exclamation, rather than leaving it in then apologizing for it. I do that all the time when composing posts, then 'thinking better of it' before sending them. Just because I endeavor to post politely, doesn't mean I don't get extremely frustrated at the way my opinions on the EU are summarily dismissed, and even ridiculed.

 

BTW, how did you get from one cynical comment to 'having little concern for fellow human beings'? :huh:

 

I intended no disparagement when I said we hear 'the NHS is in crisis' all the time - just pointing out that it's becoming a case of 'the boy who cried wolf' syndrome - you can never tell if it's *really* in crisis, or just rhetoric being used to push for extra funding. :unsure:

Edited October 27, 20177 yr by vidcapper

But you could simply have omitted the exclamation, rather than leaving it in then apologizing for it. I do that all the time when composing posts, then 'thinking better of it' before sending them. Just because I endeavor to post politely, doesn't mean I don't get extremely frustrated at the way my opinions on the EU are summarily dismissed, and even ridiculed.

 

BTW, how did you get from one cynical comment to 'having little concern for fellow human beings'? :huh:

 

I intended no disparagement when I said we hear 'the NHS is in crisis' all the time - just pointing out that it's becoming a case of 'the boy who cried wolf' syndrome - you can never tell if it's *really* in crisis, or just rhetoric being used to push for extra funding. :unsure:

 

Then I'm glad it was a misunderstanding. It's not just rhetoric. It's difficult to not assume you lack compassion when you virtually never make statements of support for those in need. It's not difficult, it takes about 5 seconds:

 

"I feel really sorry for all the old people needing care homes or being let home to die but end up staying dying in hospital due to lack of staff and money. The government needs to do more".

 

 

Then I'm glad it was a misunderstanding. It's not just rhetoric. It's difficult to not assume you lack compassion when you virtually never make statements of support for those in need. It's not difficult, it takes about 5 seconds:

 

But there's no guarantee such expressions on my part will be taken at face value - it's not unknown here for my comments to be misinterpreted... :teresa:

 

But there's no guarantee such expressions on my part will be taken at face value - it's not unknown here for my comments to be misinterpreted... :teresa:

 

No they wouldn't. A short sincere statement with no ulterior motive other than supporting ailing fellow humans can't be taken any other way. Try it.

No they wouldn't. A short sincere statement with no ulterior motive other than supporting ailing fellow humans can't be taken any other way.

 

I suspect otherwise - it might be seen as half-hearted, like when councillors are caught making non-PC comments off the record, and come up with fake, rather than sincere apologies.