Gutted I missed this :( must check for a repeat!

Better things to do with my life than watch a fish attempt to put up a fight from the barrel.

s that's it then, the New Left inherit Labour for the next decade or so till they realise the population is no more left-leaning (in an almost horizontal sense) than it was in the 80's.

 

In the meantime, the country will lurch even farther to the right while they are out of power, unions castrated, workers rights eaten away, the NHS quietly gradually privatised, and the young poor excluded from achieving thanks to lack of financial support, and Council houses done away with piecemeal fashion.

 

Withut the EU (thanks Corbyn for your lack of supprt) I have no optimism that there will be any more brakes on unbridled Tories, heaven knows Corbyn and his idealists have done nothing of any practical help, unless you call mutual admiration amongst the converted "practical", mixed with a slice of demonisation of those that don't tow the party line (like the hypocrite Corbyn wasn't when he was the one doing the criticising).

 

sighs....

I'm feeling slightly more optimistic about the future of Manchester today. So that's nice.

In the meantime, the country will lurch even farther to the right while they are out of power, unions castrated, workers rights eaten away, the NHS quietly gradually privatised, and the young poor excluded from achieving thanks to lack of financial support, and Council houses done away with piecemeal fashion.

 

Withut the EU (thanks Corbyn for your lack of supprt) I have no optimism that there will be any more brakes on unbridled Tories, heaven knows Corbyn and his idealists have done nothing of any practical help, unless you call mutual admiration amongst the converted "practical", mixed with a slice of demonisation of those that don't tow the party line (like the hypocrite Corbyn wasn't when he was the one doing the criticising).

 

And once again you contradict yourself. You can't call for a more pragmatic Labour Party, at the very same time that you bemoan them being TOO pragmatic and too in line with public opinion on the EU, even when being passionately in favour of it would've been suicidal for the party.

 

I'm feeling slightly more optimistic about the future of Manchester today. So that's nice.

 

If only the Labour mainstream (a) had more MPs like Andy Burnham rather than the talent vacuum they've currently got, and (b ) Andy Burnham himself hadn't spectacularly lost his nerve last summer and based his leadership campaign on a Progress dream manifesto, then the party would be in a much better place.

Edited August 10, 20168 yr by Danny

And once again you contradict yourself. You can't call for a more pragmatic Labour Party, at the very same time that you bemoan them being TOO pragmatic and too in line with public opinion on the EU, even when being passionately in favour of it would've been suicidal for the party.

If only the Labour mainstream (a) had more MPs like Andy Burnham rather than the talent vacuum they've currently got, and (b ) Andy Burnham himself hadn't spectacularly lost his nerve last summer and based his leadership campaign on a Progress dream manifesto, then the party would be in a much better place.

Andy Burnham's not necessarily any more talented than a lot of the others, he was running for a position where it would have been counterproductive to oppose Corbyn.

 

Also, grad tax and rail renationalisation. Open Labour dream manifesto more like.

 

Those are both pretty popular policies outside of the westminister circle jerk. Although I'm not convinced renationalisation will fix the problems with the railways. The franchise system is fairly flawed in that we basically have a bunch of small monopolies but that's another topic for another time.

And once again you contradict yourself. You can't call for a more pragmatic Labour Party, at the very same time that you bemoan them being TOO pragmatic and too in line with public opinion on the EU, even when being passionately in favour of it would've been suicidal for the party.

 

"Once again"? Contradiction (or opposing views held at the same time), is part of life, it's called looking at the Big Picture, as opposed to simplistic black and white. The world is grey....

 

The Labour Party policy, as voted for by MP's, was pro-EU. Virtually no-one was aware of that due to massive failure by Corbyn (on the grounds that he actually wanted immediate withdrawal the next day regardless of the consequences of being utterly unprepared for it). The party is on a suicidal heading right now, being seen to be pro-EU wouldnt have changed that. Trying to pander to anti-EU voters who feel alienated will lose the mainstream and they will still prob vote UKIP anyway. Had Corbyn pointed out the lies strongly by the anti-EU campaigners, then right now we could well not be faced with leaving. The country was split down the middle, with slightly less people wanting to leave overall than those who wanted to stay or weren't bothered enough to vote (expecting remain to win).

 

Corbyn doesn't engage with people. He's had too many mad policies over the decades to be anything more than a niche candidate. He's a huge hypocrite. He has no leadership skills. He will be gone sometime after the next general election. He does however help give the English electorate clear choices for the next election:

 

Far Left.

Centre.

Far Right.

 

That is all.

 

 

Also, grad tax and rail renationalisation. Open Labour dream manifesto more like.

 

As well as saying the mansion tax was "politics of envy", saying Labour needed to be tougher on the "workshy", saying Labour should worship the super-rich, saying Labour should dance to the Tories' tune on austerity even more than Miliband and Balls did, etc.

"Once again"? Contradiction (or opposing views held at the same time), is part of life, it's called looking at the Big Picture, as opposed to simplistic black and white. The world is grey....

 

The Labour Party policy, as voted for by MP's, was pro-EU. Virtually no-one was aware of that due to massive failure by Corbyn (on the grounds that he actually wanted immediate withdrawal the next day regardless of the consequences of being utterly unprepared for it). The party is on a suicidal heading right now, being seen to be pro-EU wouldnt have changed that. Trying to pander to anti-EU voters who feel alienated will lose the mainstream and they will still prob vote UKIP anyway. Had Corbyn pointed out the lies strongly by the anti-EU campaigners, then right now we could well not be faced with leaving. The country was split down the middle, with slightly less people wanting to leave overall than those who wanted to stay or weren't bothered enough to vote (expecting remain to win).

 

Corbyn doesn't engage with people. He's had too many mad policies over the decades to be anything more than a niche candidate. He's a huge hypocrite. He has no leadership skills. He will be gone sometime after the next general election. He does however help give the English electorate clear choices for the next election:

 

Far Left.

Centre.

Far Right.

 

That is all.

 

But passionate support for the EU is considered by the public to be a "mad"/"niche"/extreme policy. Your personal opinion on Europe is not the "mainstream" opinion, as the referendum showed.

 

Once again, you (and many others like you) can't give high-minded lectures about how Labour should compromise more to be seen as appealing to the public, but then when it comes to an issue that you personally happen to think is important, demand that Labour should throw all pragmatic concerns out and become an obsessed pressure group about it, no matter what the huge damage it does to the party.

Edited August 10, 20168 yr by Danny

48% isn't mainstream? Give over.

48% isn't mainstream? Give over.

 

How much of the 48% do you think were passionately in favour of the EU and considered it their top political priority that should be fought to the death for, rather than (like Corbyn, ironically enough) thinking the EU had a whole load of flaws but on balance there were a few too many unanswered questions about Brexit, and that there were a few too many racists supporting Brexit which people didn't want to associate themselves with?

Edited August 10, 20168 yr by Danny

But passionate support for the EU is considered by the public to be a "mad"/"niche"/extreme policy. Your personal opinion on Europe is not the "mainstream" opinion, as the referendum showed.

 

Once again, you (and many others like you) can't give high-minded lectures about how Labour should compromise more to be seen as appealing to the public, but then when it comes to an issue that you personally happen to think is important, demand that Labour should throw all pragmatic concerns out and become an obsessed pressure group about it, no matter what the huge damage it does to the party.

 

What Soy Adrian said.

 

Tories managed to combine both extreme Brexit and extreme Remain....is the party hugely damaged by that?

 

a) not with the public

b) unified front afterwards

 

They were on both sides, if nothing else, passionate. Labour as a party was a wet fish, and it hasn't helped them in the slightest having a leader that was a flounder amongst an ocean of sharks, just flipping and flopping a bit trying not to attract their attention. As I've said before, the only passion Corbyn has demonstrated so far for anything, is a passion to keep his job. He's VERY committed to that one....

How much of the 48% do you think were passionately in favour of the EU and considered it their top political priority that should be fought to the death for, rather than (like Corbyn, ironically enough) thinking the EU had a whole load of flaws but on balance there were a few too many unanswered questions about Brexit, and that there were a few too many racists supporting Brexit which people didn't want to associate themselves with?

There was a referendum on our membership. Invariably that means that most politicians and parties would pick a side and argue for it - that's kind of their job.

What Soy Adrian said.

 

Tories managed to combine both extreme Brexit and extreme Remain....is the party hugely damaged by that?

 

a) not with the public

b) unified front afterwards

 

That's the point -- the Tories represented BOTH positions, so voters on either side didn't feel disenfranchised by the party. You are suggesting Corbyn/Labour should've been uniformly and loudly pro-EU, which would've thus disenfranchised two-thirds of current Labour seats (most of which were happy to vote for Corbyn's Labour as recently as May's local elections, incidentally, probably because he wasn't alienating them by telling them their opinion on the EU was stupid/racist/antithetical to Labour, and that people should mindlessly obey their superiors in London on whom the rest of the country are supposedly dependent).

 

Again, if you really feel being in the EU is one of the most important issues of all, then you're entitled to your opinion - but do you really not see how "Labour should care about winning elections and not being 100% pure on issues, unless it's an issue that I care about like the EU, in which case they should've been willing to destroy themselves as a party for the sake of being on the morally-right side of the argument" is a ridiculously hypocritical stance?

Edited August 10, 20168 yr by Danny

Resentment of Corbyn in those areas was almost as high as resentment of the EU, just for the record.

Resentment of Corbyn in those areas was almost as high as resentment of the EU, just for the record.

 

That's not borne out by a comparison of Labour's results in May, to Remain's results in June.

That's the point -- the Tories represented BOTH positions, so voters on either side didn't feel disenfranchised by the party. You are suggesting Corbyn/Labour should've been uniformly and loudly pro-EU, which would've thus disenfranchised two-thirds of current Labour seats (most of which were happy to vote for Corbyn's Labour as recently as May's local elections, incidentally, probably because he wasn't alienating them by telling them their opinion on the EU was stupid/racist/antithetical to Labour, and that people should mindlessly obey their superiors in London on whom the rest of the country are supposedly dependent).

 

Again, if you really feel being in the EU is one of the most important issues of all, then you're entitled to your opinion - but do you really not see how "Labour should care about winning elections and not being 100% pure on issues, unless it's an issue that I care about like the EU, in which case they should've been willing to destroy themselves as a party for the sake of being on the morally-right side of the argument" is a ridiculously hypocritical stance?

 

I'M not the one who chose to pretty much ignore LABOUR party policy, of which he was the leader. That includes Unions and many working class voters. You are the one implying that all working class voters are anti-EU and that by not committing to the issue one way or the other that is of any help to either viewpoint. Just as many were well-off Tory supporters and racist, that doesn't mean Labour should try and pander to get their votes either. A SANE passsionate labour voice could have made all the difference, and we will all pay for Corbyn's stance over the next 10 years. Including the very same poor people who didn't quite get what they think they were voting for.

 

I pretty much have said since I joined Buzzjack that the Labour Party needs to look at the bigger picture. The reason it's in a total infighting mess is precisely because they don't look at the bigger picture. I'm a lifelong union member, and I financially support the Labour Party, so yes I am entitled to my opinion - been there longer than all the recent johnny cum latelys and johnny-cum-back-agains that ruined the Labour Party (and as a byproduct, the Tory-dominated country) in the 80's. Been there, done it, been on strike, seen it all before.

 

I'm left of centre, and sometimes you have to take a practical view on what you are willing to compromise on for the greater good. There were 3 million of us on the dole in the 80's (2 and a half years myself) so I pretty much know what it's like to have nothing, not even full benefits (which were rubbish back then). Even despite that, Labour STILL self-imploded under Lefty idealists who just alienated huge swathes of the population with their militant comrade-cum-the-revolution-first against-the-wall rubbish.

 

History, despite Corbyn's own hazy memory of events, does repeat. Labour run the risk of being replaced as an electoral force (albeit one that sticks to it's idealised left principles), that's how serious the issue is....

 

 

That's not borne out by a comparison of Labour's results in May, to Remain's results in June.

Turnout in the locals was around half of what it was in the referendum. Did you miss the bit where loads of non-voters (many of whom used to or culturally would be expected to vote Labour) turned out to vote to leave because they were generally angry at all politicians including Corbyn?

 

As an aside, winning those sorts of people over was meant to be his trump card. Looking at his past views, I suppose he did in a sense.

That's not borne out by a comparison of Labour's results in May, to Remain's results in June.

One got 31%, one got 48%. Which one's supposed to be the unpopular viewpoint again?