Totally agree about world working together, and also UK reforms to elections needed. It's a LibDem wish list (and other smaller parties). Not a priority for the 2 parties who have dominated for 80 years though. Thing with power is, those who have it not keen on giving it up......

Massive difference between pro-Russia and pro-Putin. Deliberately ignored by those who seek to promote an agenda.

 

 

But don't worry, we've got Boris instead who is massively massively pro-Kremlin endorced oligarchs.

 

 

Good for him. Good for him for calling out Blair, his own leader (who he often disagreed with). We are all pro-people and anti-demagogue. Except for the Tories. Sadly people in Russia are being fed lies and then they become a problem. That's what always happens. Johnson is well aware of this, he uses the same methods. People are frequently gullible, blinkered, and all-too-willing to tolerate other people's suffering, and this is going on in all countries, it never goes away, young men burning with hormones and resentment are always happy to spur on wars.

 

Johnson represents what I warned against happening when Corbyn was running. Some older people havent forgiven the far left for what they did in the 80's to Labour's chances, which gave us Thatcher and the banking crisis and much more for longer than might have happened, nor those who did well out of Thatcherism (not me). Labour might still have won in 1983, despite the loony fringe, if not for the Falklands, cos sadly nothing spurs on jingoistic spirit like a war. Johnson will prob get a boost unless the Russian links are brought out into the open as everyone forgets about those parties....

 

And, for the record, as I said at the time, I voted for Corbyn's Labour as the best option available locally to get rid of a Tory (I was wrong about that sadly).

So Labour MP Graham Stringer is sharing a platform with Nigel Farage at his anti net zero rallies - wonder if he will be purged from the party like left wing MPs are when they sign an anti war letter?

just to get the facts:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/j...in-recent-years

 

Threatening MP's for signing letters that imply NATO is to blame (in part I presume) for Putin's invasion of Ukraine at this time seems a reasonable reaction given you-know-who got evicted from the party for saying they voted Libdem, hardly a criminal offence. Putin is to blame for Ukraine, not NATO. Poland prob feels a bit more secure than Ukraine do, hence their ongoing preference to join NATO, the EU. MP's could always set up their own anti-NATO party if they feel that strongly about it, just like the MP's who left quoting Brexit and anti-semitism as a reason to bail out. Of course, like them, you run the risk of losing your seat to stand up for something you believe in but which isn't current Labour policy....

 

But yes, sharing views with Farage is highly questionable, given the damage he's already done and is a supporter of Putin and an inveterate liar. I wouldn't shed any tears over that being as good a reason to boot him out as voting Libdem. If he's that invested in Farage he is free to stand for whatever Farage currently stands for (not UKIP).

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I can't do it. I can't vote for a party that thinks Priti "Mega Prisons on Islands" Patel is soft on crime and the answer is more policing rather than fix the causes of crime. A party that thinks that environmental protesters are an obstacle to be charged with injunctions over in order to protect motorists rather than investing in public transport. Encouraging essential workers for society that they must shut up and accept lower wages rather than introducing wealth taxes on the rich in order to fund better wages. Mandating support for NATO, an organisation that while good at the present moment, must be able to come under criticism, among other forms of banning leftwing voices.

 

This current incarnation of the party has changed dreadfully over the past few years and voting them will not change a thing towards an ideal society even in the long-term assuming that they win every election from herein, they are only there to seem like a reprieve from the Tories' current nonsense.

 

the voters they are aiming for with this will take one look, say that Labour is still too woke because "they support the transes" and go back to voting Tory anyway.

This is what happens in a proto-fascist one party state: the opposition becomes compliant.

Starmer is disappointing sure but compared to the Tories under Johnson who have destroyed our economy with an ultra hard Brexit, siphoned off billions of public funds to their wealthy donors, have launched a savage war on trans people and other minorities via their war on woke, are privatising the NHS in plain sight, partied whilst people couldn't attend funerals of loved ones lost to Covid...

 

The list goes on. Labour will be slightly better. Maybe not enough as you or I would like (underestimate) but it's a pretty easy choice at the end of the day. I'm not going to not vote and empower Johnson to create even more carnage to feed his narcissistic ego.

Regardless of my personal vote in a year or two's time, the strategy of simultaneously alienating and mocking left voters while by the same token apparently dependent on their votes to get in power is one that has gone on for far too long and has been far too played out by centrists with nothing to offer the electorate. The choice must always be between centrists and a idiotically bad far-right in order for the centrists to win, which isn't much of a vindication of their ideology as a whole.

 

This is the part of the cycle where the left make demands upon Labour without ANY legitimacy to claims such as 'don't criticise us now, it's time to beat the Tories'. There's nothing to risk, and they apparently need our votes, so now they need to work on showing ways in which they will actually improve things, and this latest whip round of stances is absolutely abhorrent from them and in some cases, worse than what the Tories are currently doing. Because some political strategist barely worth the name (or rather more likely, ideologically inclined to protect capital) has decided that the best voters to win over are the ones who will absolutely never vote for them.

 

(it is hyperbole, I will likely, dependent upon my constituency, vote for Labour in 2024, but I would much rather be campaigning for them and actively promoting them to win and f*** that as things stand)

I don't disagree with any of the above. I just think that Labour Government (especially in coalition with Lib Dems) will be a lot better than the disgusting shower we have in power now. And if/when they get in they will be pulled to the left by their MPs/unions etc well certainly more than the Tories.

 

What we wanted- well that didn't work twice sadly in 2017 and 2019. I'm depressed about the politics of cynicism but would be far more depressed at 5 more years of Johnson. Especially with a resurgent Trump gunning for US president.

I find it hard to agree, I mean do you give up on principle because it will never work and just have a Labour government that accepts the system the tories put in place and dictate the boundaries of the debate or do you fight for your own principles and try to make the arguement to the electorate?

 

There’s no chance in hell the unions will move the party to the left if they win an election (by default) it will vindicate their right wing views.

I find it hard to agree, I mean do you give up on principle because it will never work and just have a Labour government that accepts the system the tories put in place and dictate the boundaries of the debate or do you fight for your own principles and try to make the arguement to the electorate?

 

There’s no chance in hell the unions will move the party to the left if they win an election (by default) it will vindicate their right wing views.

 

You get in to power and then you try and change. No matter how good the principles are, they are useless unless you're in a position to do something. You can't force the elctorate to be left wing, but what I would hope Labour would do (in the event they got elected) is the left of the party influences the Cabinet to make good changes that will benefit the left/centre in the long run. As much as I was a huge fan of the Blair/Brown years, one thing the former took for granted massively was the FPTP system.

Except that left wing polivies ARE POPULAR!!! We warned years ago you rightbwingers would try to gaslight us about it. It was brexshit plus media manipulation and state sabotage that took down Corbyn ... to a point where he STILL GOR MORE VOTRS THAN BLAIR, CAMERON, THAT ONE WHO ATE THE SANDWICH, OR BROWN!!!

 

Left wing policy ideas are the CORRECT ones and poll extremely well, and showed in Corbyn's figures. Not our fault the extreme centrists in Labour sabotaged hin in thebfirst one, that the Tories were buoyes by brexshit and rhe bandwagon effect and a one party state media and one party state electoral system from the dark ages!!! Sorry bout it, extreme centrist!

You get in to power and then you try and change. No matter how good the principles are, they are useless unless you're in a position to do something. You can't force the elctorate to be left wing, but what I would hope Labour would do (in the event they got elected) is the left of the party influences the Cabinet to make good changes that will benefit the left/centre in the long run. As much as I was a huge fan of the Blair/Brown years, one thing the former took for granted massively was the FPTP system.

 

The problem with that is that the last Labour government were right wing campaigning and more right wing in government - right wing on law and order, right wing on foreign policy and right wing on economics.

 

And this leadership shows no sign whatsoever about being left wing when entering power. Yvette Cooper and Rachel Reeves being in the positions they are proves that.

The problem with that is that the last Labour government were right wing campaigning and more right wing in government - right wing on law and order, right wing on foreign policy and right wing on economics.

 

And this leadership shows no sign whatsoever about being left wing when entering power. Yvette Cooper and Rachel Reeves being in the positions they are proves that.

 

Yeah but you are forgetting the electorate is right wing on law and order and foreign policy - rightly, or wrongly. I don't think the Government will ever turn left win, but there is a way to be influenced.

I’m oof forgetting that I argued that you have to stand up for your principles are argue why they are wrong in the first post.

It’s a pity Lisa Nandy has went to the tv studios yday and stated Labour wouldn’t be neutral in an Irish unity referendum!

Yeah but you are forgetting the electorate is right wing on law and order and foreign policy - rightly, or wrongly. I don't think the Government will ever turn left win, but there is a way to be influenced.

 

Corbyn 2017. Only stopped by state hysteria and internal sabotage ;)

 

2019, brexshit, sabotage and two years of INTENSE anti-democratic propaganda, and he srill did better numbers than Brown or Milliband ;)

I’m a bit concerned about the situation with Starmer. I’m hoping this is yet another smear by the Tory party who have absolutely no room to talk given the number of fines already issued and pending police enquiry. However, this will look bad if he is found to have done wrong and undermine his credibility and reputation. This comes at a key time when Labour are trying to reconnect and rebuild their core base.

I’m a bit concerned about the situation with Starmer. I’m hoping this is yet another smear by the Tory party who have absolutely no room to talk given the number of fines already issued and pending police enquiry. However, this will look bad if he is found to have done wrong and undermine his credibility and reputation. This comes at a key time when Labour are trying to reconnect and rebuild their core base.

Hence Starmer's statement that he will resign if he is fined. Potentially, this could be a massive own-goal by the Tories. If Starmer is fined and goes, that shows up Johnson as unprincipled. If Starmer is not fined, he will still hold the moral high ground and the Tories will be shown up as the lying muckrakers they are. The only real risk is the pressure it puts on Durham police. The Met were supposedly reluctant to be seen to interfere in the choice of PM. Equally, Durham Police may be worried about being seen to be in a position to sack the Leader of the Opposition.

I wrote this on another forum, but may as well repeat on here :D

 

Given how much the Tories have pushed beergate, its difficult to see now what the heck they are going to benefit from it in the long term... or even short term, especially now given Keir has said he will step down if fined.

 

If he's fined and does step down, then Labour can move on with a new leader, show they do have integrity and not like the lying Tories.

 

If he's not fined and stays, then he's now made the gesture that he would stand down and shows he has integrity and not like the lying Tories.

 

As the Gray report is due, the met police fines are on-going and there is the parliament enquiry too, the Tories wont be able to move on in a hurry. I guess it was the muddy the waters in the run up to the council elections - but lets face it, its now back-fired