Correction: David Davies did not have much to do with this agreement.

 

The EU never doubted that the UK was leaving. Why do you think that wasn't the case?

 

Maybe they took Gina Miller too seriously? :mellow:

 

 

No doubt, but since the EU are going to be our neighbours, I believe it would be better for everyone that the UK and the EU can be strong allies without the UK actually having to be in it.

 

That has been my position all along - many Remainers mistakenly seem to equate Brexit with isolationism.

Edited December 8, 20177 yr by vidsanta

As predicted we've a sufficiently vaguely worded statement that placates the likes of REES-MOGG, DUNCAN-SMITH and BONE until the final deal is thrashed out in around 15 months time - no doubt it is just simply storing up the real problems and sticking points for later and simply 'kicking the can down the road' but I think all parties realised that failure to move on would have resulted in a collapse of government and even more chaos.

 

Incidentally I don't think David Davis has had much to do with anything, he looks the very definition of 'coasting to retirement' at the moment.

I'm not "preaching" disaster, I'm extrapolating based on available facts, and blatantly obvious lies that were told. You have faith all will be well, I don't.

 

If you're allowed to have faith that all will be disastrous, then I hold that I am allowed to maintain the opposite view.

 

If you're allowed to have faith that all will be disastrous, then I hold that I am allowed to maintain the opposite view.

You missed the point. John's belief (which I share) that it will be a disaster is backed up with facts. Your belief that it will be the most wonderful thing ever to have happened to any country in this (or any other) universe is based on blind faith.

You missed the point. John's belief (which I share) that it will be a disaster is backed up with facts. Your belief that it will be the most wonderful thing ever to have happened to any country in this (or any other) universe is based on blind faith.

 

Brexit won't even be completed for 15 months, so no *facts* can possibly be available before then, and probably not for several years after.

 

As for the other, I've never claimed Brexit will be a guaranteed success, only that I don't believe it will be the disaster many Remainers claim. In any case, I've made it clear that my main reason for voting Leave was political, rather than economic.

 

As a side issue, how would 'failure' even be defined in Brexit terms - it will surely be a matter of interpretation.

 

so, a few thoughts.

 

Hard Brexit seems more unlikely now, so well done TM for stepping up to the plate where the useless isloated Davies refused to.

 

We are paying £40b or so, it's a joy to have the right nutters have to eat humble pie over that, and it's pissed off Farage so a big bonus there.

 

There will be no border between Ireland/N Ireland or between N Ireland and the UK, so that's a great way for EU citizens, or anyone travelling via the EU, to have ongoing access to the UK (albeit illegally). Presumably this all relies on a trade deal, but that shouldn't be too hard given the way the UK has held firm with all of it's principles against the EU (as in, caved in as predicted).

 

8 years of European justice overseeing of EU citizens cases is sensible, and another matter Farage is moaning about so it must be good news.

 

we leave in march 2019, except that we also simultaneously have another 2 years to sort stuff out before actually being free to sort out trade deals out of the EU. So 2021 then.

 

S another Hard Brexit demand watered then. So, all in all, the UK might come out of this without having it's economy destroyed, and all of the BS spouted by Leavers about the EU caving in to our demands (Please note, the UK has caved in to EU demands) has proved to be just that - assuming a trade deal can be done.

 

See, I can be optimistic? I was also not wrong about the liars gotta lie bout caving in and the fanatical liars gotta lie Leavers didn't get their way.

 

I've probably missed a lot of stuff, but over to others...

Meanwhile in sensible governments, the EU and Japan have agreed a huge trade deal worth 30% of global GDP. That would have been a nice deal for the UK. Too bad, I guess https://www.ft.com/content/f0f093fb-89e9-39...2a-39a789c321a1

 

So what I'm getting from this announcement is that we will probably stay in the customs union, Ireland will sort that. We may well stay in the single market, the regulatory agreement will see to that. We will after all be a lot like Norway, bound to the EU's rules, paying them for all of this hassle, just not getting a vote on their direction. Great taking back control that.

 

I'm happy it's not hard out, but it really begs the question, what was the fucking point?

But now we're independent so will lose all those immigrants!111 Oh hang on...

 

I mean, fair play, this is actually a decent deal and we could actually come out OK with it, Farage calling is 'pathetic' exemplifies this even more and pleases me greatly, even though there's still quite a lot of questions left hanging and the question of trade and security.

Decent deal? Nothing has been agreed yet!! Only that 'sufficient progress has been made to move to the next stage of the negotiations'. The cabinet still don't agree on what kind of relationship the UK and EU should have outside of meaningless non-phrases such as a deep and special relationship. Theresa May has ruled out both remaining within the Customs Union and the Single Market and so the hard reality of that statement meeting the equally hard reality of 'how can that be possible without a hard border between Ireland / N Ireland?' has simply been kicked down the road to be sorted out at a later date because there is no real answer to that question, but to admit that now would risk the government collapsing!

The Commons has just voted for an amendment insisting that there is a meaningful vote on the final agreement. A small step in the right direction.

The Commons has just voted for an amendment insisting that there is a meaningful vote on the final agreement. A small step in the right direction.

 

309 to 305.. Oofffft.

 

What a great end to 2017. :D

The howls of protest from many Leavers tonight has been entertaining. How dare MPs vote to be allowed to do their job?

The Commons has just voted for an amendment insisting that there is a meaningful vote on the final agreement. A small step in the right direction.

 

But what is a 'meaningful vote' in this context? A HoC vote, or another referendum?

Another article I wish I'd written...

 

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/howthebritishmedia.htm

 

 

How The British Media Lied And Tricked Us Into Joining The EU

 

Vernon Coleman

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Coleman

How the far right spread lies and hate

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/dail...4b0ce3b344492f2

But what is a 'meaningful vote' in this context? A HoC vote, or another referendum?

A vote that is more than a choice between accepting whatever deal May (or any successor) comes up with or leaving with no deal at all. The amendment was purely about what choices will be presented to the Commons.

How the far right spread lies and hate

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/dail...4b0ce3b344492f2

 

There was no point in posting this in more than *one* thread, since I was only ever going to read it once.

 

A vote that is more than a choice between accepting whatever deal May (or any successor) comes up with or leaving with no deal at all. The amendment was purely about what choices will be presented to the Commons.

 

But those are the only two realistic options, since the gov't has *no* mandate for remaining in the EU.

Parliament can still vote to Remain. If parliament cannot vote against the government line, what is the point of it?

There was no point in posting this in more than *one* thread, since I was only ever going to read it once.

 

It was the same point and worth repeating.

 

You are using the techniques of spreading lies and you continue to do so. You are either gullible or doing it intentionally. Either way you further the right wing agenda as pushed and explained in the article.

 

Btw i see you are noticeably inactive in commenting on the progress of the brexit deals. I thought you would be over the moon that a deal has been reached and we can more likely be able to trade with our closest neighbours for the wellbeing of the uk and that british parliament can now democratically decide on the final deal representing the views of the british people. You DO want the uk to do well dont you? You did want british people to have a democratically elected parliament control our destiny? I certainly dont recall anything in the regerendum about electing May Queen as ruler over the queendom.

Parliament can still vote to Remain. If parliament cannot vote against the government line, what is the point of it?

 

They *could* - but it would be political suicide. Who on earth would be dumb enough to piss off 17.4 million voters, a majority of whom support the party in power!