So stop posting. I'm not trying to persuade you that Brexit is a mistake. That's futile. I'm trying to stop you posting lies about Brexit to stop other people being taken in by fatuous unsupported statements.

 

Since the issue was decided 2 years ago, what I or anyone else says on either side of the argument now, is irrelevant.

 

There's a big difference and the reason we are in the sorry state we are in are because powerful liars have been doing exactly that. They havent got the result by telling the truth in the slightest. So the rest of us will spend the rest of our lives pointing out how the liars made a mess of our country lying to gullible fools. Get used to it, I would suggest because the "I Told You So"s is going to go on until the Uk is back in the EU down the line, assuming it still exists and Europe hasnt been taken over by far-right fascists in uniforms doing away with democracy.

More hyperbole.

 

If you don't like democratic arguments with reason and evidence, there are plenty of websites catering for that viewpoint, though intolerant racist homophobic misogynistic bullying is a bit of an unfortunate side-effect of those sorts of places, rather than caring, decent human beings that force their appalling liberal views onto others by not accepting other people having a right to take away their rights.

 

So what proportion of Leavers do you consider to be naive dupes, and what proportion 'intolerant bigots' * ?

 

* I reject the term 'racist' in the EU contest, as virtually all EU countries are Caucasian, and therefore the *same* race as Britons.

 

Since the issue was decided 2 years ago, what I or anyone else says on either side of the argument now, is irrelevant.

 

More hyperbole.

So what proportion of Leavers do you consider to be naive dupes, and what proportion 'intolerant bigots' * ?

 

* I reject the term 'racist' in the EU contest, as virtually all EU countries are Caucasian, and therefore the *same* race as Britons.

 

Oh, what was that march by 100,000 people today all about then? It ain't over till the fatheaded lady sings. Or Mrs May as she is better known.

 

"I told you so". Get used to it....

 

naive dupes: 23.457234% I never mentioned intolerant bigots so you can provide your own estimate. My naive dupes calculation is beyond reproach because it's something I believe in therefore you are obliged to accept it as fact.

 

Why are you relating the "racist" reference to the EU when this is not an EU thread? I didn't mention the EU, and I specifically said there were racist WEBSITES. I suppose you are going to say that is a lie despite it being provably factual (I have posted links before to loathesome hateful racist websites so they exist). Or else you are just twisting my statement to make it appear as though I said something I didn't in the hope that I'll go off on one and you scream "injustice"?

 

Oh, what was that march by 100,000 people today all about then? It ain't over till the fatheaded lady sings. Or Mrs May as she is better known.

 

There was nothing about that in the Mail?

 

[OK, there was - but I bet some of you believe the Mail might ignore it. :P ]

 

All I will say is : People don't march in protest when they already have what they want.

 

Or else you are just twisting my statement to make it appear as though I said something I didn't in the hope that I'll go off on one and you scream "injustice"?

 

So you don't enjoy being on the receiving end - then perhaps you'll think about that before you do that to me again... ;)

 

There was nothing about that in the Mail?

 

[OK, there was - but I bet some of you believe the Mail might ignore it. :P ]

 

All I will say is : People don't march in protest when they already have what they want.

So you don't enjoy being on the receiving end - then perhaps you'll think about that before you do that to me again... ;)

 

Brexiters were marching after the result beating people up and murdering.

 

Just saying.....

 

No. I don't twist your words, I repeat them back to you, bit of a difference. That you say them badly (your claim) can be easily corrected with a follow-up statement clarifying what you are saying - just like I did with your "misunderstanding" of my very clear statement. Then is no further discussion required. But by all means feel free to blame me for picking on you unfairly and explain clearly why and how I am doing that and I will reflect on your statements.

Brexiters were marching after the result beating people up and murdering.

 

Just saying.....

 

That is a blatant example of stereotyping - just because someone voted Leave (*) doesn't mean they are necessarily violent - after all, you wouldn't dream of saying 'all Muslims are terrorists' just because a very tiny minority of them are brainwashed dupes.

 

(*) And how would you even know how they voted, anyway?

 

No. I don't twist your words, I repeat them back to you, bit of a difference.

Then I must ask that you retain the context too.

 

That you say them badly (your claim) can be easily corrected with a follow-up statement clarifying what you are saying

 

Lately I seem to be asked that all the time. :(

 

Going off at a tangent : concurrent vs consecutive sentences?

 

Say someone is convicted of one burglary and gets sent down for a year

 

Someone else is convicted of 10 burglaries and gets a one year sentence for each, but to be served concurrently - surely they are getting a 10 times light sentence than the first person?

 

 

Going off at a tangent : concurrent vs consecutive sentences?

 

Say someone is convicted of one burglary and gets sent down for a year

 

Someone else is convicted of 10 burglaries and gets a one year sentence for each, but to be served concurrently - surely they are getting a 10 times light sentence than the first person?

OTOH, consecutive sentencing would mean aa longer sentence for a sting of burglaries than for a single, but far more serious crime.

That is a blatant example of stereotyping - just because someone voted Leave (*) doesn't mean they are necessarily violent - after all, you wouldn't dream of saying 'all Muslims are terrorists' just because a very tiny minority of them are brainwashed dupes.

 

(*) And how would you even know how they voted, anyway?

 

Then I must ask that you retain the context too.

Lately I seem to be asked that all the time. :(

 

Violence went up against non-whites after the referendum result and during it. They weren't Remainers. Remainers believe in tolerance and inclusion. If you choose to ignore that hate speech incites hate actions that's your choice. In the real world there is 100% a link. Old argument feel free to refer to previous discussions rather than me repeat myself.

 

No I'm not going into context. If you feel; I have misrepresented your own words, that's up to you to correct it and clarify what you mean. You can't blame someone else for repeating what you say. Don't say it if you don't want it repeating, or phrase it better. Or accept that you do actually agree with what is being repeated. Your choice. Feel free to repeat my own words back to me. I almost always stand by them, and if I have reviewed what I say, then I say so and retract it. I don't blame others for commenting on what I have said.

 

 

OTOH, consecutive sentencing would mean aa longer sentence for a sting of burglaries than for a single, but far more serious crime.

 

Your point being?

 

Violence went up against non-whites after the referendum result and during it. They weren't Remainers. Remainers believe in tolerance and inclusion. If you choose to ignore that hate speech incites hate actions that's your choice. In the real world there is 100% a link. Old argument feel free to refer to previous discussions rather than me repeat myself.

 

I concede that violent racists were extremely unlikely to be Remainers - however, I strongly resist any suggestion that they are in any way representative of typical Leavers, such as myself, or most of the rest of the 17.4m.

Your point being?

I concede that violent racists were extremely unlikely to be Remainers - however, I strongly resist any suggestion that they are in any way representative of typical Leavers, such as myself, or most of the rest of the 17.4m.

 

Nobody is claiming that extremist followers are typical of anything, just that they are attracted to the movement and fired-up by hate speech. As long as you condemn them as the criminals they are and make quite plain that there is no place in UK society, now or after Brexit, for Hate-fuelled actions, then you can continue to make unsubstantiated claims about the numbers of people that they don't represent. If you try to use the threat of violence as some reason for not doing something you don't want to happen then you have no moral high ground. Criminal behaviour is criminal behaviour and their future hypothetical behaviour has no part in any discussions on democracy.

Nobody is claiming that extremist followers are typical of anything, just that they are attracted to the movement and fired-up by hate speech. As long as you condemn them as the criminals they are and make quite plain that there is no place in UK society, now or after Brexit, for Hate-fuelled actions, then you can continue to make unsubstantiated claims about the numbers of people that they don't represent.

 

Surely you are not claiming that I have ever supported racist violence in any way? :huh:

 

If you try to use the threat of violence as some reason for not doing something you don't want to happen then you have no moral high ground. Criminal behaviour is criminal behaviour and their future hypothetical behaviour has no part in any discussions on democracy.

 

I have not advocated the threat of violence - the most I have done is made a pragmatic prediction of what might happen if democracy (in the form of the referendum vote) is denied.

Your point being?

I concede that violent racists were extremely unlikely to be Remainers - however, I strongly resist any suggestion that they are in any way representative of typical Leavers, such as myself, or most of the rest of the 17.4m.

 

What leads you to thinking that you represent ‘typical’ leavers?

 

Soz, just being devil’s advocate :w00t:

What leads you to thinking that you represent ‘typical’ leavers?

 

Soz, just being devil’s advocate :w00t:

 

Well, because I'm not a violent racist seems a good place to start.

Surely you are not claiming that I have ever supported racist violence in any way? :huh:

I have not advocated the threat of violence - the most I have done is made a pragmatic prediction of what might happen if democracy (in the form of the referendum vote) is denied.

 

NO I have been very clear that not condemning violence says as much as supporting it. If it were a Remain pacifist who shot Nigel Farage then there would be a sudden condemnation of Remainers being anti-democratic from Brexiters. Not condemning it is the same as supporting it, as Farage was incapable of expressing sympathy for the murdered MP, only worried how it might affect Brexit, and refusing to condemn the act or anyone who supports it. Still doesn't but is very capable of expressing criticism on anyone or anything. So it's purely a choice and that says everything you need to know about him.

 

A pragmatic prediction of violence if a political choice that everyone is free to express a point of view on isn't quite what a small minority thought they were voting for (there was nothing written down and it continues to mean all things to everyone who voted Leave) sounds like a warning. Another pragmatic prediction of violence is if the Northern Ireland border isn't properly sorted out as per the signed agreement between Ireland, The UK, and Northern Ireland then we could end up with terrorism for decades to come.

 

The main difference is on your pragmatic prediction there is no evidence to point to that it would happen, while with mine we had 40 years of bloody experience. My pragmatic prediction therefore holds a bit more weight than yours (and it is based on an existing agreement that we signed up to).

 

 

NO I have been very clear that not condemning violence says as much as supporting it.

 

I'm sorry, but that is flawed logic - it's like insinuating that anyone who doesn't take part in a 'Unite Against Fascism' march, might well be a secret nazi. :wacko:

 

The point is - you don't have to actively condemn something, to be against it. I don't engage in virtue signalling, but that doesn't mean I support violence & injustice!

 

The main difference is on your pragmatic prediction there is no evidence to point to that it would happen, while with mine we had 40 years of bloody experience. My pragmatic prediction therefore holds a bit more weight than yours (and it is based on an existing agreement that we signed up to).

 

But I wasn't talking of NI (partly because I have no interest in it - either now, or well before Brexit). I was referring to potential civil unrest caused by a government ignoring the result of a referendum.

 

You mean like the civil unrest of ignoring a 2/3s majority in Scotland in the same referendum ignoring Northern Ireland plus the REAL UNREST THAT COULD HAPPEN THERE IN CASE OF BREXIT, plus ignoring 50% of the electorate who voted remain, plus ignoring rhe 63% who didn't vote leave, plus the millions in Europe who didn't get a say? You know, THAT ignoring of the result? It was a split ADVISORY referendum split down the middle in numbers and countries. It can be ignored. Ther ehas been no consequence ignoring the remain voters and repeating right wing fascist memes from the 1930s, werrl errer therree perplereee, perplwree herrr sperkwrwnnn, when neither is true oops. Or are you saying leavers are more likely to be violent and spurred on/ incited to violence by the bile spewing press?

Also it is insane anyone would support a US-style justice system. Two crimes and then arrested for mistakenly taking a 25bottle of lemonade from somewhere without realising? Oops. 3 strikes!

I'm sorry, but that is flawed logic - it's like insinuating that anyone who doesn't take part in a 'Unite Against Fascism' march, might well be a secret nazi. :wacko:

 

The point is - you don't have to actively condemn something, to be against it. I don't engage in virtue signalling, but that doesn't mean I support violence & injustice!

But I wasn't talking of NI (partly because I have no interest in it - either now, or well before Brexit). I was referring to potential civil unrest caused by a government ignoring the result of a referendum.

 

What Queefy said. In the case of Farage he doesn't speak out against fascism because he is very much in favour of it. Simple rights and wrongs. You could choose not speak out in support of anyone not murdering burglars, yet you choose to do so. Why is that somehow more important than speaking out against the end of democracy and justice, and criticising those that do it? There is nothing wrong with my logic. If you don't speak out against injustice (which you are more than capable of doing, as seen from your point of view) than the inference is you either aren't bothered or are in support of it. I can't see any other reason when you (and farage) can go one endlessly about trivial issues and choose not to speak out on vital ones.

 

Just say it. One sentence. Much quicker than these tedious ongoing assertions that you or Fred Bloggs/ Whoever isn';t in favour of fascism unless they actually come out and say they are. FASCISTS DON'T GET ELECTED SAYING WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO TO DEMOCRACY. They do it sneakily bit by bit and lie all the way. I take them very very seriously, and only a blinkered fool wouldn't do so.

 

re: NI: you gave a hypothetical dystopian example of what might happen in the UK following a non-Hard-Brexit result and I gave a realistic comment on a possible future dystopian result on what would happen in the UK if there was a Hard-Brexit result. What part of that means you can casually ignore reality in favour of fantasy? Oh that's right - BREXITEERING! Not based on reality.......Silly me.

You mean like the civil unrest of ignoring a 2/3s majority in Scotland in the same referendum ignoring Northern Ireland plus the REAL UNREST THAT COULD HAPPEN THERE IN CASE OF BREXIT, plus ignoring 50% of the electorate who voted remain, plus ignoring rhe 63% who didn't vote leave, plus the millions in Europe who didn't get a say? You know, THAT ignoring of the result? It was a split ADVISORY referendum split down the middle in numbers and countries. It can be ignored. Ther ehas been no consequence ignoring the remain voters and repeating right wing fascist memes from the 1930s, werrl errer therree perplereee, perplwree herrr sperkwrwnnn, when neither is true oops. Or are you saying leavers are more likely to be violent and spurred on/ incited to violence by the bile spewing press?

 

Yawn.

What Queefy said. In the case of Farage he doesn't speak out against fascism because he is very much in favour of it. Simple rights and wrongs. You could choose not speak out in support of anyone not murdering burglars, yet you choose to do so. Why is that somehow more important than speaking out against the end of democracy and justice, and criticising those that do it? There is nothing wrong with my logic. If you don't speak out against injustice (which you are more than capable of doing, as seen from your point of view) than the inference is you either aren't bothered or are in support of it. I can't see any other reason when you (and farage) can go one endlessly about trivial issues and choose not to speak out on vital ones.

 

Well, one reason is that this forum is hardly a representative sample - if it were, then there would be as many Leavers posting here as Remainers. Also there would be as many Mail readers as Guardian ones.

 

Just say it. One sentence. Much quicker than these tedious ongoing assertions that you or Fred Bloggs/ Whoever isn';t in favour of fascism unless they actually come out and say they are. FASCISTS DON'T GET ELECTED SAYING WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO TO DEMOCRACY. They do it sneakily bit by bit and lie all the way. I take them very very seriously, and only a blinkered fool wouldn't do so.

 

What would be the point in saying it when I don't believe that anyone here would think me sincere?

 

However, if I will make you feel better : I condemn anyone on the violent political extremes, whether extreme Right wing or Left.