but wait are we sure Cersei and Jamie are dead??? cos we actually don't see it, think they might be alive, also it doesn't fit with the prophecy about Cersei

also a bit lacklustre ending for such a pivotal character

 

loved the ending with Arya and the horse, that was perfection

 

Danny turning crazy was expected but think it makes sense, it's in her genes, think that kinda fits...

Danny turning crazy was expected but think it makes sense, it's in her genes, think that kinda fits...

 

It does indeed make sense in that way, it has been for-shadowed for ages. It was expected from lots of us. The main criticism is how it was done and how it didn't feel believable to her character because her turn from good to evil wasn't fleshed out enough. A few seasons ago she chained up her dragons for a full season because one of them killed a child. Now she's willingly killing innocents because she heard some bells. It just didn't feel like the same character who, while was egotistical and hungry for power, risked her life for Westeros 2 episodes ago (saving Jon TWICE). She's said up until very recently that she didn't want to be the Queen of ash, so for her to torch the city when she'd already won, didn't quite make sense? Isn't this the city she wants to rule? The bell chimes being symbolic has been explained but on her 9 year journey, Dany has seen MUCH worse and overcome it. Taking this city with as few casualties possible has been her goal for her entire arc, so people feel a little short changed that they tried to develop her maddening over the course of 2 episodes instead of properly fleshing it out over the past 4 or 5 seasons, and instead showing how she wants to do good instead.

The episode was really good in some aspects; Hound vs Mountain - especially when paralleled with Arya's fleeing, Arya's scenes in general - especially the last one with the horse! Jaime killing Euron was perfect. The fall of Kings Landing in general was great to see, although Dany certainly was excessive. Cersei's crying honestly made me feel bad for her...Until I remembered all the horrid things she's done. I have a feeling she's not dead either - I feel Jaime would've used his body to protect her as he was going to die from blood loss due to his wounds anyway.

 

Varys' death was a long time coming, but felt very rushed.

 

I honestly don't see how Jon or Dany can be on the iron throne now, if there is an iron throne left. Dany for obvious reasons, but Jon for being complicit in her rampage and not controlling his men and allowing them to butcher countless many people/not trying to stop Dany (although what could he do tbh).

 

I feel that Sansa is the only person left who could rule. She's proven herself and has strong allies. Arya has seen first hand what Dany has done and would be a great person to help Sansa rule from the shadows. Then there's Tyrion, whom she is close with. I can't see anyone other than Sansa now, unless Dany kills her, which in turn causes Arya or Jon to kill Dany.

 

Also, in the beginning of the episode Varys is writing a letter about Jon's true heritage and gives it to the little girl? I have a feeling the letter is inside the burnt toy horse she had and itsurvives and someone comes across it. The message then spreads fast and with Jon being a targaryen, people turn against him due to Dany's actions and the mad king or trust him a lot less?

Dany's arc the last 2 seasons has been developed fine. I agree more episodes would have benefited the pace and it could have been more nuanced but it is all there and her path to this shown from season 1. But back to the last 2 seasons-

 

She initially landed at Dragonstone and declared she would take King's Landing 'with fire & blood'. Tyrion and the others talked her out of attacking the capital immediately and convinced her to wait. During this time she lost the Dornish and Greyjoy fleets and then immediately lost the Tyrells - 'be a dragon'. 3 crucial allies were defeated immediately and Tyrion's attack on Casterly Rock was pointless and cost her more men pointlessly. Her immediate response was to ignore her advisors and attack the Lannister/Tarly armies. She exercised her power through fear and forced the remainder to surrender. She then wants to turn her attention again to Cersei but Jon convinces her of the Night King's threat. A threat she realises is the bigger and more pressing threat. During this she loses a child, but agrees it must be dealt with.

Following this she learns there is no love for her in Westeros, even though she was told from day one that the people will welcome her. The North hates her, even after she loses half her army fighting to save them and she has no friends anywhere else in the realm. She loses closest friend and soon believes the man she loves and her remaining advisors are plotting against her. She's now paranoid and in fear of losing everything she has spent her whole adult life working towards. It has been her only thought since Viserys died. She then loses another child and her only other real friend in close succession. One of her advisors is actually proven to be treasonous, and Jon flat out rejects her, to which she surmises all she has left is for people to fear. her She knows the unwritten rule - 'in the game of thrones you win or you die', and when she has finally won she knows that leaving any of her enemies alive is dangerous. She sees the Red Keep and it symbolises everything that has been taken from her - her home, her family, her friends, her children - and she is overwhelmed by anger and hate. If she allows them to surrender she will not be loved and she will not be truly feared. She will be a target to be overthrown and so she demonstrates her natural impulses. Ones she has been fighting against her whole life.

It is not rational thought but it is to her in the moment.

I think that's fine and it makes sense. The trouble is that you've almost spent more time on that plot than the show did! I'm fine with all of the outcomes as a principal, it just needed to be better executed in terms of pacing - this season is just so rushed and that's where most of the grumbles are coming from...

 

I think that's fine and it makes sense. The trouble is that you've almost spent more time on that plot than the show did! I'm fine with all of the outcomes as a principal, it just needed to be better executed in terms of pacing - this season is just so rushed and that's where most of the grumbles are coming from...

I do agree with you that the pacing could be better but I budgetary constraint and deadlines came in to play here.

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile... Arya with a white/pale horse. The symbolism is too much to take

Arya really has stolen season 8...now that's a character arc done right and climaxing in the most spectacular way and the perfect moment. She stole the Battle of Winterfell, stole the Kingslanding scenes...maybe she'll now steal Dany's life?!

My favourite episode of the season, it was achieved a lot better than the Battle of Winterfell for me. There's not much more I can add to what has been said about Dany - definitely pacing issues but it does feel that this has been her destiny. Varys storyline this episode was atrocious though, I know there's not much time left but he found out the truth about Jon at the end of last week's episode then he's trying to kill her through his little birds, tells Jon he should be King and dies within 10 minutes! That would have been a full season arc before!!

 

Cleganebowl was epic, although still really not sure about Zombie Mountain. Ayra's parts were interesting considering they didn't play any pivotal role in the episode butttt I'm sure it will have a significant part next week... :kink:

 

I'm in two minds about Cersei and Jaime. I felt the scenes with Cersei standing over her kingdom watching it burn (by dragonfire and her wildfire) but refusing to leave the Red Keep was brilliant and then for her to continue watching her world fall apart as her last remaining allies were killed or deserted her, leaving her alone standing over her painted Kingdom. IF they are dead, I wish it would have been that point where Jaime killed her. IF they are dead, the way they went was quite... mundane for two HUGE characters especially as we're left uncertain?

 

They really messed up with the entire Euron Greyjoy character, why oh why they didn't introduce him and have him more central earlier I'm really not sure when he ended up playing an proportionately large role in the endgame.

 

At least the show, for better or worse, is going to actually finish the story unlike the series' creator.

Well, I enjoyed it, it certainly wasn't without its bizarre knowledge and strange character moments but the spectacle was amongst the best it has ever been and it was really heart-in-mouth stuff.

 

There's an awful lot to unpack and a lot good and some frustrating, I'll start with good...obviously visually it was incredible, MOST of the deaths were actually done very well, Cleganebowl was brilliant, the zombie didn't look as scary as it could've been, but it was a fitting end, as for Jaime and Cersei (assuming they are dead, they really can't fake that out), I actually thought that was a fitting end, Cersei is undeniably monstrous but she was a complex character so her seeming more vulnerable and dying with her brother actually felt quite apt, just a shame that she's been given absolutely sod all to do this season presumably as her death was entirely inevitable, it's a shame for one of the best TV villains of the last few years she's gone out on a whimper in comparison to what they should've done (on another note, very pleasing to see Euron gone, what an awfully handled character he was). Arya's arc again was very tense and it was nice to see her more vulnerable and the scene with the horse was...interesting, although I could've done with less fakeouts when we knew she wasn't gonna die yet.

 

Again, I can certainly see the complaints that Dany's madness was too sudden, but I'd just put that down to timing and the need to wrap it up with very little help from the source material. She was likeable as a character throughout, but was always a flawed leader, she was too impulsive, her hands constantly had to tone down her more vicious schemes. She's lost friends, her right to the throne and the respect of almost everyone around her, it's very plausible that she snapped and thought if she couldn't rule, then no one could. Had this descent had more time to flourish, I don't think there would be any dissent as on paper, it makes sense.

 

The main negatives for me were Varys' death which felt ridiculous given how quick it arrived and an insult to a great character who's been handled poorly this season, and the iron fleet thing really annoyed me with how easily ONE dragon burnt the whole thing and not get hit once when that somehow wasn't possible last week with TWO! I guess Drogon's clearly the best trained of the three, I'm surprised he didn't need a bit of a break for air throughout the episode :lol:

 

I'm certainly interested to see the aftermath, Dany is obviously dead but given Jon was largely ineffective, it's hard to see how his siblings would trust him with the throne (if there even is one, looking more like the North will now rule) even if he does kill her. I think Arya killing Dany as a substitute mad queen for Cersei could be likely. How they'll deal with the dragon I'm not sure, but given Jon's Targaryen blood, it'd be hard to see how the dragon could burn him...

Zombie Mountain looked more like Zombie Varys on steroids

I know a couple of you had excused Dany's descent for 'timing', but they've had 8 seasons and they spent most of that drilling in that Dany doesn't want to turn out like her father, often doing ruthless things but with clear positive motives (burning rapists and slavers). And punishing people who commit treason in the same way that Rob, Ned, Sansa, Arya etc have all done.

 

Personally I think it would have worked better if Dany took the throne a bit earlier. Cersei has been kind of pointless since she blew up the sept and this episode only proved that they didn't have any larger plan for her( I feel like they only kept her around because is was so popular, but it wasn't wise to keep her for the sake of it). If Dany had defeated Cersei earlier, taken the throne and become slowly power mad and evil with new new status as she reigned, it would have been a bit more believable leading up to where we are now with Jon or Arya having to kill her.

 

Things I really liked about the episode:

- King Drogon f***ing Up Euron's fleet. Deserved.

- The Hound's closure and final moments.

- Cersei's comedic sneaking past the Hound. Stunt queen.

- Again, the visuals. Give every Emmy to the special effects department.

Omg Cersei creeping past The Hound was so f***ing funny!!!

Emilia Clarke's script for the episode...

 

Danaerys: Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys. Dracarys.

I really liked it, certainly I can't see why it's getting so much hate. As usual I suspect it's because people want something to happen or they feel it's too obvious.

 

Dany becoming the Mad Queen has been paralleled since the first Season. I feel you have to give the writers somce slack here, certainly the first 4-5 seasons were on the highest quality and a large part of that was because they had some excellent source material. To give some context it takes George RR Martin about 7 years to write a book. These guys probably have 3-4 months to write the scripts. I'm sure in the books there will be a much more satisying conclusion, well, that's if those books ever manage to get written.

 

For me I summarise as it the signs were always there. She's always been a fearful ruler even when she was murdering rapists. Her whole life she has wanted the Throne, then when she found out she was no longer the rightful heir she goes batshit. That's it, simple as. I'm sure given the time they would do it much better. And I'm sure in the books it will be a much bigger payof You'd feel at this moment in time it will be Arya or Sansa who ultimately stops Dany, I can't see it being Jon.

 

Feels sad we lost so many good characters in the space of 75 minutes.

That was an amazing episode hands down. My only complaint is how Jaime has been handled this season, not necessarily the fact he’s gone back to Cersei as that was always a huge possibility anyway (seeing as he went North to fight the dead for honour and to save Westeros, not to escape Cersei) but the fact he was paired up with Brienne only for them to immediately separate. A bit more time needed to be spent on him realising he wasn’t prepared to lose his family, OR that whole Jaime + Brienne relationship needed to come to an end after the Battle of Winterfell with her dying in the war after being knighted.

 

Other than that I’m in awe. Dany burning the city to the ground has been her objective ever since the first season and we were fools to think she shouldn’t go along with it, especially without Ser Barristan or Jorah around to sway her thinking as they have only ever been the two who could truly change her thought processes. Tyrion has made mistake after mistake ever since they docked in Westeros which led to the death of the only two Westerosi houses that genuinely supported her claim to the throne: Martell and Tyrell. Jon betrayed her as soon as he possibly could by telling Sansa about his heritage, who then Littlefinger’d Tyrion into spreading the truth to Varys and so on. She lost all her major allies to the Iron Fleet and the Lannister army, lost Viserion to the Night King, lost a good portion of her army to the Night King, lost her trust and love in Jon, lost her faith from Tyrion and Varys, lost her most trusted advisor Jorah, lost her second baby Rhaegal, lost her best friend Missandei, and finally lost her claim to the throne. The minute the bells were rung she knew she would not last on the Iron Throne. She knew that the North would back Jon and Sansa/Varys between them would have every house in the Reach, the Vale, etc etc backing Jon as well. She knew no one in Westeros loved her or ever would love her, and seeing how easily the people of Kings Landing would surrender to an attacker proved to her how the city is loyal to no one. No one who she can trust is alive any longer to counsel her actions so she thinks back to her ultimate goal and her original plan - burn cities to the ground and liberate Westeros from tyrants. Cersei was a menacing bitch who would do anything she could to stay in power, she loved her children deeply and suffered immensely when each of them died with her becoming more and more wicked. Dany is just the same.

 

At this point I can see Sansa taking the throne, or whatever’s left of it. Perhaps the capital will now move more North where she’ll permanently have respect and loyalty from the likes of House Arryn and so on. She knew from the beginning that Dany was not to be trusted and who else is better at discovering tyrants than Sansa? She spent 6 seasons being tormented by Cersei, Joffrey, and Ramsey who were no doubt the shows most vicious rulers. She knows more than anyone what people can turn out to be like.

 

Hands down one of my favourite episodes ever. The entire sequence where Arya is only just surviving the Burning of Kings Landing, Pompeii vibes and all it was just visually breathtaking every scene. I felt terrified for everyone in that city. The people she tried to save only for them to get burned alive. Her last moments with The Hound. I love Arya. She’ll be one of the few people who survived the fires with lasting scars to show for it I imagine too. Her killing Dany is the only ending I can really think of. Her list just got wiped out and replaced with just the one: Danaerys Targaryen. Cleganebowl was just as epic as i could have dreamed. The way The Mountain simply threw Qyburn into a wall and killed him was hilarious. Then Cersei’s reaction. Zombie Mountain (who literally cannot he killed apparently even being stabbed in the head) has been nothing but loyal to Cersei/Qyburn since his Frankenstein-like revival yet upon seeing his brother suddenly his brain switched back to all that hate he has for Sandor and all his loyalty dropped instantly. Another great scene. 10/10 episode from me tbh.

 

Minor complaints:

- Eurons endgame being diminished just to him wanting to kill Jaime. Not even a conversation about her baby or anything specific. His character has been rather empty in the show, but that’s not just an issue from this episode or even this season.

- Davos fighting alongside Jon. Davos has always said he’s not a fighter yet he marches into a city full of enemies alongside Jon f***ing Snow. I’m glad he didn’t die but I was worried for him.

Edited May 14, 20196 yr by Dexton

I hands down hated the episode... Some questions and points raised:

 

- Why the MOST INTELLIGENT characters such as Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger make the most stupid mistakes? These three were (in Tyrion's case still have been) among then best characters in the whole series and when they die they have made seem like idiots.

- Why Euron Greyjoy ever existed? What an awful storyline and totally unnecessary character. The fight against Jamie was embarrassingly bad.

- Why did Rhaegal die so easily but Drogon couldn't be harmed in any way?

- Why has Jon Snow become totally uninteresting during this season?

- Why did they introduce Harry Strickland as a character and then the whole army got destroyed in 2 seconds

- In S8E3 the dothrakis were killed and now there were another army of them in this battle

 

Only thing I enjoyed was the random death of Qyburn.

 

Long story short: the whole series crashes down like the Red Keep lol If only they would've kept the focus in the main storylines and not brought in people like Euron etc.

 

I'm not mad about Dany though, that progression has been given for a while, it's everyone around her that has been failing in the storyline (most recently how Varys was handled).

Edited May 14, 20196 yr by SKOB

They needed seasons 9 and 10 in my opinion to flesh everything out, it just feels rushed now.

They needed seasons 9 and 10 in my opinion to flesh everything out, it just feels rushed now.

 

It was never going to happen for all sorts of reasons, not least because of the cast contracts. Also if we had more episodes people would have just called them boring. It’s tough to please everyone.

really can't stand all these people complaining and saying they hated the episode, like if's the cool thing to say

typical attitude of build it up, tear it down

Do we think we'll get any kind of spin off shows after this is done? Maybe something based around when then the Targaryens were in power the first time?