Did you even read anything anyone said? Matt is being blamed for his actions and decisions that lead to more Covid deaths. He’s not being accused of causing the actual deaths or even creating the virus. For better or worse, he is the face of a lot of the hurt caused over the last few years and he should recognise that. I can’t accept anyone defending him, it’s way too raw.

 

But if your actions or decisions lead to deaths, isn't that the same thing as causing the deaths? I'm not trying to be a dick btw, but to me it's the same thing. I get that others might not see it that way. Totally get why a lot of people don't like him, I don't have much time for him either and agreed with most of the viewpoints being raised here.

Roo - I feel like you said you agree with Steve but then everything you've said since makes it sound like you actually don't! :D

But if your actions or decisions lead to deaths, isn't that the same thing as causing the deaths? I'm not trying to be a dick btw, but to me it's the same thing. I get that others might not see it that way. Totally get why a lot of people don't like him, I don't have much time for him either and agreed with most of the viewpoints being raised here.

 

I meant in that her didn’t go out and murder those people which is the point Steve (the one you started by saying you agree with) is using as an argument for Hancock not being responsible for the deaths.

 

I’m actually not sure who you’re agreeing with in this thread tbh, it just seems like more fence sitting and there’s more than enough in this thread as it is.

As an aside - I always find it odd when people say "I couldn't have done a better job..." as an excuse for someone else. You nor other people are being paid to do that job, it's a bizarre comparison. It's not unreasonable to expect the person who is in the job to be qualified and capable of doing it.

 

 

I can totally accept that Matt may have found himself out of his depth in a situation that nobody had experience of dealing with. It's his actions of accepting £400K and going on a reality TV show to promote an upcoming book about the COVID period to make himself lots of money that I'm struggling to defend. He shouldn't be there and it really saddens me to see so many people on social media saying he's such a victim just because a few people aren't staying silent about their thoughts on the situation.

Roo - I feel like you said you agree with Steve but then everything you've said since makes it sound like you actually don't! :D

 

Only the point that it wasn't as black and white with regards to accountability, responsability etc. but ultimately if you are head of the state and the public face you deserve to bare the brunt. Grief is complex afterall.

 

 

I meant in that her didn’t go out and murder those people which is the point Steve (the one you started by saying you agree with) is using as an argument for Hancock not being responsible for the deaths.

 

I’m actually not sure who you’re agreeing with in this thread tbh, it just seems like more fence sitting and there’s more than enough in this thread as it is.

 

Ah ok. Is there fence sitting? I think it's ok to suggest he was accountable for some of the deaths (be it accidentally rather than through pure negligence) and should still be on the show. He has clearly moved on from covid, but obviously people who lost someone they cared about still have an emotional attachment and resentment towards Matt Hancock and that is totally fine. I'm fine with him going on the show, I don't think he should have gone on the show from a moral level, but it does not bother me. What bothers me more is people accuse him of being bullied, which I don't think is the case - he should be asked tough questions or campmates have moral conondrums. I'll apologise for not reading every post from wall to wall and leave this debate now!

Only the point that it wasn't as black and white with regards to accountability, responsability etc. but ultimately if you are head of the state and the public face you deserve to bare the brunt. Grief is complex afterall.

Ah ok. Is there fence sitting? I think it's ok to suggest he was accountable for some of the deaths (be it accidentally rather than through pure negligence) and should still be on the show. He has clearly moved on from covid, but obviously people who lost someone they cared about still have an emotional attachment and resentment towards Matt Hancock and that is totally fine. I'm fine with him going on the show, I don't think he should have gone on the show from a moral level, but it does not bother me. What bothers me more is people accuse him of being bullied, which I don't think is the case - he should be asked tough questions or campmates have moral conondrums. I'll apologise for not reading every post from wall to wall and leave this debate now!

 

Well that’s clarification of where you stand at least.

 

I guess I just don’t think it’s fine that Hancock has ‘moved on’ from Covid. It should not be that easy.

I don't think you've actually read any of my posts but allow me to clarify for once and for all.

 

My views on Matt Hancock

Of course, I'm no Hancock fan from before the show. I think he handled the COVID situation as health minister in a dreadful way and then broke his own guidelines. However, I was keen to watch him with an open mind on the show. I spoke of this in the post below, which I'm quoting so you can remind yourself of my actual stance rather than making assumptions.

In my opinion, since that early opinion, Matt has been completely pleasant as a campmate. He's not said anything detestable or proven himself to be a bad campmate. However, I think he's very aware of the cameras and has played up to that, including when he asked for forgiveness, so I'm not sure how genuine he's actually being.

 

Charlene's elimination

It was not me who "automatically" suggested Charlene's elimination was due to race, it was shadow2009. Proof is below.

I did, however, disagree with your claim that this was about "character not race." The British public have a history of not connecting with strong, confident Black women. Allow me to educate you a little. The last time there was a person of colour in the I'm a Celebrity top 3 was in 2016, when Adam Thomas came third. Two women of colour have made the top 3 *ever*. There have been 21 series, therefore 63 celebrities finishing in "medal positions", and a whopping TWO of those are women of colour! It's the same in other reality shows, too. One Black woman has won Strictly Come Dancing (Alesha Dixon) across 19 series, only four more ever making it to the final (out of a possible 63), or five out of 64 if you include AJ Odudu who was forced to withdraw after making it through to the final. Taking a deeper dive, you can see Alexandra Burke, one of the Black women to make the Strictly final, was the highest scoring dancer on average points that series. She topped the leaderboard seven times, more than any other contestant, yet was in two dance-offs and faced an uphill battle with the public. If you don't believe this, there was an actual article about it from The Guardian written about it at the time, I'd highly recommend a read: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/20...d-race-strictly

 

This is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to unconscious bias in the UK but you can't stick your head in the sand and say it's not happening. I'm not saying race was ENTIRELY the reason Charlene was eliminated - I know people haven't liked her regardless - but I don't think you can outright ignore it as a factor, and this is what you seem to be ignoring / continually misinterpreting in my posts.

 

I hope this has made my stance clear because I don't really know how to make it any clearer.

 

This is an excellent reply(apart from the patronising part where you say you are educating me 😐) but that doesn’t mean that it shows people don’t vote for a person who is black, is a female or is gay for example due to bias.

 

It may be that Charlene wasnt liked for any other number of reasons!

 

 

Well that’s clarification of where you stand at least.

 

I guess I just don’t think it’s fine that Hancock has ‘moved on’ from Covid. It should not be that easy.

 

To clarify I’m of the same opinion as Rooney there that it’s not fair to blame him alone for the deaths.

 

I also don’t think Matt is being bullied but it’s uncomfortable viewing sometimes esp with Sean’s reaction to the George and Matt convo the other night.

It's difficult in a vote to save situation to evidence people'e voting habits, you can only really observe who they do vote for rather than who they don't. You could statistically argue a point if the I'm a Celeb voting always showed that people don't connect with and vote for a certain type of person - and I can't claim to have enough knowledge of this show to know if that's true or not

This is an excellent reply(apart from the patronising part where you say you are educating me 😐) but that doesn’t mean that it shows people don’t vote for a person who is black, is a female or is gay for example due to bias.

 

It may be that Charlene wasnt liked for any other number of reasons!

I've said that literally multiple times and you've ignored it each time.

I knew this would happen from the minute it was confirmed he would be on it as said earlier. While I do usually respect the opposite side of the debate, please don't be fooled by these type of programs - everything that happens when the cameras are on is a fabrication or editing trick and is no reflection of what the real person is like, Matt knows this well. The fact he is abandoning his constituency for this show tells you all you need to know about what he is like. He is not remotely sorry for what he's done, he's doing this purely for himself and starting a celebrity career and it's working wonders for him (doesn't matter what happens on the show, he's getting paid 400k, petty arguments and bitching from other campmates won't lose him any sleep). One can only hope that the whip won't be restored and he won't be able to stand come next election as reported...

^^

Exactly that Chez. And that's why I'm so annoyed with ITV for being the people to pay for and facilitate his media narrative.

It's difficult in a vote to save situation to evidence people'e voting habits, you can only really observe who they do vote for rather than who they don't. You could statistically argue a point if the I'm a Celeb voting always showed that people don't connect with and vote for a certain type of person - and I can't claim to have enough knowledge of this show to know if that's true or not

 

I’m watching and it didn’t surprise me she was in the bottom 2 just because of her being edited telling people what to do etc, i didn’t think anything of the skin colour until I came into BJ and saw that view. That’s only my interpretation of it of course!

Edited November 20, 20222 yr by Steve201

I’m sad Sue isn’t more popular than she is. I think she’s been quite entertaining.

 

I don’t like that some of the camp mates are being accused of being two faced. I feel all of them have been put in a very awkward position by putting Matt in there. They can like the fact he’s brought home the stars and dislike what he’s done on the outside in equal measure in my view. Camp life is not real life. There’s nowhere for these people to discuss the impact of him being there without it looking two faced but that’s ITV’s fault for facilitating this.

Edited November 20, 20222 yr by Yobnedor

Odds via Paddy Power:

 

Winner:

 

Owen Warner 5/6

Jill Scott 2/1

Mike Tindall 8/1

Matt Hancock 10/1

Seann Walsh 20/1

Scarlette Douglas 66/1

Chris Moyles 66/1

Boy George 66/1

Babatúndé Aléshé 100/1

Sue Cleaver 150/1

This is an excellent reply(apart from the patronising part where you say you are educating me 😐) but that doesn’t mean that it shows people don’t vote for a person who is black, is a female or is gay for example due to bias.

 

It may be that Charlene wasnt liked for any other number of reasons!

 

And Joseph hasn’t refuted that there may be other reasons but he’s put forward plenty of evidence to suggest race could be a big factor. It feels like you’re being wilfully blinkered on this. You don’t want people to have an unconscious race bias so you don’t think anymore about it unless members of the public actually come out and state their racism.

 

To clarify I’m of the same opinion as Rooney there that it’s not fair to blame him alone for the deaths.

 

I also don’t think Matt is being bullied but it’s uncomfortable viewing sometimes esp with Sean’s reaction to the George and Matt convo the other night.

 

Whilst I’m SHOCKED that you have the same opinion as Rooney, no one has said that Matt Hancock alone is the only person who contributed to the deaths. But that doesn’t absolve him and for most of the lockdowns he was the face of the government.

I’m not being blinkered I just see no evidence that race plays a part all the time. So every negative decision about a person of a particular race and it’s racism? I don’t believe that is the case in this instance.

I’m not being blinkered I just see no evidence that race plays a part all the time. So every negative decision about a person of a particular race and it’s racism? I don’t believe that is the case in this instance.

 

No one has said that though.

Odds via Paddy Power:

 

Winner:

 

Owen Warner 5/6

Jill Scott 2/1

Mike Tindall 8/1

Matt Hancock 10/1

Seann Walsh 20/1

Scarlette Douglas 66/1

Chris Moyles 66/1

Boy George 66/1

Babatúndé Aléshé 100/1

Sue Cleaver 150/1

 

I'm glad to see Scarlette move up, love her!

 

I'd be here for Owen winning.

 

I don't want Matt, Seann or Chris to win.

I've watched a bit of it again this evening and I think my favourite is Jill, she seems like such a nice person :wub: