Posted March 4, 200718 yr Children lack discipline and turn to crime because their parents are too scared to smack them, says one of Britain's most senior black policemen. Parents no longer use physical punishment because they fear they will end up in court facing an assault charge, according to Supt Leroy Logan of the Metropolitan Police Force. He says that the results have been a decline in respect, a rise in family breakdowns and an increasing number of children being put up for adoption. Supt Logan, the deputy borough commander in Hackney, east London, made the comments last week during a meeting of the all-party Commons Home Affairs Committee, which is investigating patterns of crime among young black men, including last month's spate of shootings in south London. He told the committee that "lack of respect and discipline in the home" was caused by "the parent feeling a sense of helplessness or a fear of prosecution in the moderate correction of their child". advertisement Black families had raised with him their concerns over the law on smacking, he said, while some had even sent their children back to the Caribbean or Africa, where physical punishments are traditionally used, "to regain their cultural and community values of respect and discipline". After the hearing, Supt Logan, who is also the chairman of the National Black Police Association, said: "I was beaten by my parents. It was a wake-up call to me, it's the rite of passage that you need." In law, parents may smack their children without risk of being charged with assault, as long as the force used is "moderate and reasonable". Three years ago, legislation was changed so that blows hard enough to leave lasting marks, which would be classed as actual bodily harm, can no longer be explained away using the defence of reasonable punishment. Supt Logan's comments drew praise from parents' rights campaigners, who said they applied equally to white families who were now too afraid to smack their children. Norman Wells, the director of the pressure group Family and Youth Concern, said: "He is absolutely right, and it's not only black parents who are feeling intimidated by social workers and child protection agencies who equate a moderate smack with child abuse. "If parents are to be held responsible for their children's behaviour at school and in the community, it is vital that their authority to reasonably correct their children is recognised. The more parents' authority is undermined, the less responsibility they will be inclined to take for their -children, and the more their children will grow out of -control. "Parents are authority figures in their children's lives and they need to have effective sanctions at their disposal when their children misbehave. If children don't learn to respect their parents, there is little hope that they will respect other authority figures." Anne Houston, the CEO of the child protection charity Children 1st, said that children who are smacked by their parents may be more likely to resort to violence in later life. She said: "Supt Logan's comments suggest that if you don't hit children, you are not teaching them respect. That is not our experience. "Children learn from how their parents respond. If what they learn is that if you don't like something, you hit out, then that is not a good lesson. If their parents have other ways of dealing with things, that teaches children there are ways to deal with situations that do not involve hitting out. We help parents find alternative ways to discipline children."
March 4, 200718 yr im not so sure about the effectiveness of smacking alone, i think its more about a parent being strong and in control. physical violence isnt the only way, but a responsable parent should be able to guide their brats in life by reason, understanding and simple parental skills.
March 4, 200718 yr Smacking never taught me anything -_- It just hurts the child, it doesn't 'teach' them anything. It doesn't teach them what is 'right' and 'wrong'. I'll refrain from saying the next part of what I was going to say as some people may consider it as racist but basically I like how they're saying that they should use violence to stop violence in a way. :lol: Also some people don't realise that you need to EARN respect and you can't just demand it as that's basically saying you need to respect me but I can't respect you :rolleyes:
March 4, 200718 yr I think it can help, the child will know not to do what they have done again. I think it depends though on what people mean by 'smacking', as i do not agree with people hitting their children but there is no real harm in a smack.
March 4, 200718 yr Nothing wrong with smacking, beating the living $h!t out of a kid is not good but a firm smack if it gets out of order in the supermarket or whatever to teach it discipline is fine to me, I was smacked regularly as a kid as a means of disciplining me when I stepped out of line. When I see kids throwing tantrums in supermarkets etc the best way to deal with them is a firm smack on the bottom or the hand
March 4, 200718 yr load of bull -_- it depends how good the parent is and whether they can control there kids and teach them right from wrong........
March 4, 200718 yr Jim the reason why the majority of this generation have turned out bad (I am not referring to the posters here you all seem decent ppl but are very much in the minority) is the fact that the cane was abolished at school and kids have the upper hand with parents now \"I will report you to Childline/police\" and that is why there are so many bad apples in the current crop of youngsters. The cane in school made children $h!t scared to be naughty and the fear the threat of the cane alone generated kept kids in order by and large, I was caned at school and it was not a nice experience sitting outside the headmasters study awaiting the cane. If the cane was bought back schools would be places again where teachers can get back to teaching instead of their current role of human punchbag
March 4, 200718 yr Jim the reason why the majority of this generation have turned out bad (I am not referring to the posters here you all seem decent ppl but are very much in the minority) is the fact that the cane was abolished at school and kids have the upper hand with parents now \"I will report you to Childline/police\" and that is why there are so many bad apples in the current crop of youngsters. The cane in school made children $h!t scared to be naughty and the fear the threat of the cane alone generated kept kids in order by and large, I was caned at school and it was not a nice experience sitting outside the headmasters study awaiting the cane. If the cane was bought back schools would be places again where teachers can get back to teaching instead of their current role of human punchbag bravo! let's not froget the slipper too :lol:
March 4, 200718 yr im not so sure about the effectiveness of smacking alone, i think its more about a parent being strong and in control. physical violence isnt the only way, but a responsable parent should be able to guide their brats in life by reason, understanding and simple parental skills. I agree that parental control does not have to be by smacking alone. Many parents now feel unable to even say no to their children (I see this regularly in my job - and then amazed parents ask me how I control their children!) Parents need to be in control - to provide the role models for their children and if the only way to do this is hurt them - or with the fear of hurting them them surely this is giving the wrong message?? @Vic - I once smacked my son in a supermarket mid tantrum (it was a corker!) but I am sure my main motivation was to prove to other people in the supermarket that I was doing something - I later discovered stepping over child and walking away worked much faster. I am not against smacking - I was smacked rarely as a child - I have smacked my children but am aware that on many of those occasions was as much to do with my mood as my rational choice of effective punishment. It is possible to provide effective and reinforced boundaries for children with out smacking tho, particularly with older children. Children need to know there are consequences for their actions and as they get older need to have this knowledge to make more serious decisions where they have to work out the consequences for themselves. (most effective punishment? well popping a 2 day old PSP back in it's box for a week got the desired results - with no repetition of that little misdemeanour) I don't agree with corporal punishment on school - but then I don't have to cope with a roomful of rebllious, hormonal teenagers. I had the leather strap in primary school - but I could never use one on the children I teach - I would consider it a severe failing on my part if I couldn't control 5 year olds without hurting them!!! Edited March 4, 200718 yr by ICR
March 4, 200718 yr Smacking them won't keep them from crime I don't think. If anything it teaches them violence is ok. Also usually there is trust between a parent + child. If you hit them you'll break that trust. I was hit by my dad and it made me so scared of him, and now I hate him. So what good did smacking do?? I don't understand why any parent would want to physically hurt their child. I was reading once that in some countries they hit the child on the head. That is very dangerous.
March 4, 200718 yr Smacking them won\'t keep them from crime I don\'t think. If anything it teaches them violence is ok. Also usually there is trust between a parent + child. If you hit them you\'ll break that trust. I was hit by my dad and it made me so scared of him, and now I hate him. So what good did smacking do?? I don\'t understand why any parent would want to physically hurt their child. I was reading once that in some countries they hit the child on the head. That is very dangerous. No parent wants to hit their child though or at least they should not want to, violence against a child is a bad thing, I have friends who were badly beaten by their dad and that was out of order but a smack after a warning should be considered acceptable, I was always given a warning first and if I continued I was smacked and if I ever had kids I would maintain that policy, trust works 2 ways though, the child should be trusted to behave and if the child does not behave then the trust is broken too so its a 2 way street. Sadistic violence in the home I am utterly against, firm but fair discipline with a prior warning if no improvement in behaviour is acceptable IMHO
March 4, 200718 yr No parent wants to hit their child though or at least they should not want to, violence against a child is a bad thing, I have friends who were badly beaten by their dad and that was out of order but a smack after a warning should be considered acceptable, I was always given a warning first and if I continued I was smacked and if I ever had kids I would maintain that policy, trust works 2 ways though, the child should be trusted to behave and if the child does not behave then the trust is broken too so its a 2 way street. Sadistic violence in the home I am utterly against, firm but fair discipline with a prior warning if no improvement in behaviour is acceptable IMHO Yes I think there should be warnings too. I don't agree with using belts etc though. It's basically whipping your child, which isn't right. I'd still never hit my children. I'd feel like I had failed as a parent to have to resort to that.
March 4, 200718 yr Yes I think there should be warnings too. I don\'t agree with using belts etc though. It\'s basically whipping your child, which isn\'t right. I\'d still never hit my children. I\'d feel like I had failed as a parent to have to resort to that. Oh I agree with you over belts etc and smacks on the head by parents, that is definitely in my opinion child abuse and would cause more harm than good in the relationship between parent and child. I hope you have a lot of patience and tolerance as a person because there is bound to be situations in raising a kid where it will be stretched to the absolute limit and I am sure even if you could not go through with it that the thought of smacking your son/daughter will cross your mind
March 4, 200718 yr Oh I agree with you over belts etc and smacks on the head by parents, that is definitely in my opinion child abuse and would cause more harm than good in the relationship between parent and child. I hope you have a lot of patience and tolerance as a person because there is bound to be situations in raising a kid where it will be stretched to the absolute limit and I am sure even if you could not go through with it that the thought of smacking your son/daughter will cross your mind Especially nowdays, maybe years ago using belts etc was seen as normal... Well maybe the thought of it will cross my mind, but I could never do it. Who knows, they might be well behaved. No point me planning what I'd do in certain situations yet lol.
March 4, 200718 yr lol yeah many years to go yet before you need to address motherhood etc you have good moral values so I have no doubt you will make an excellent mum even if I don't agree with you about everything such as them not being allowed to have meat but I know from reading your posts that they will not be delinquent yobs.
March 4, 200718 yr lol yeah many years to go yet before you need to address motherhood etc you have good moral values so I have no doubt you will make an excellent mum even if I don't agree with you about everything such as them not being allowed to have meat but I know from reading your posts that they will not be delinquent yobs. Thanks. :) They won't starve don't worry, I'm a good cook. They'll have what everyone else has just the cruelty free version.
March 4, 200718 yr np :) Except pancakes :lol: soz :blush: Actually I've made them again and they came out nice. Before I was using this batter mix from a packet which is why they went wrong.
March 4, 200718 yr Actually I've made them again and they came out nice. Before I was using this batter mix from a packet which is why they went wrong. Yeah wasn't taking a pop at you lol just Robert's description that time kinda amused me :blush: aah glad they turned out well second time :) you are way better at cooking than I am anyways lol I still live on Subway's at lunch and pizza or curry in the evening :blush:
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