Thursday, February 28, 2008

"It's before my time"

David Hepworth Blog

 

It started with a stupid no-count item on the BBC news website about the Isley Brothers. I posted about it on the Word site. This drew this excellent response from Archie Valparaiso which got me thinking about the tyranny of what he calls the "now-now", the cultural/historical swerve whereby you're forgiven your ignorance about anything which either happened before you were born or didn't happen to be in the cross-hairs of your focus while you were a teenager. It's at its worst when dealing with pop music and results in news readers and politicians swapping light banter about the groups they used to like when they were teenagers, at the same time stressing their proud ignorance of anything that didn't. There's about to be a Radio Four programme called "The Jam Generation". Say no more.

 

Whenever I ask A Younger Person (and that covers an increasing amount of people) about anything which pre- or post-dated their "era" they will be very quick to say "before my time" with that patronising smirk that implies that one's date of birth excuses one's ignorance. I don't remember the Second World War but I know something about it. Count Basie was past the zenith of his career before I was born but I've listened to him and I don't regard his music as a message from a different planet. I've even read Dickens and he was born, oh, it must be before the First World War, surely?

 

I blame punk rock, he said once again. That would certainly fit in with Archie's view of the last 35 years as a continuity as far as the media is concerned. It's not to do with the music. It's the falsity of the idea that this represented a new beginning, a severing of links with the past, a marking of the time before which everything was somehow "quaint" or, in the argot of the time, "naff". It results in a failure to accept the fact that anyone who didn't live like you, dress like you, speak like you or share your value system lived their life less fully than you are living yours.

 

I would have more hopes for the government's plan to introduce five hours of cultural activity into the school week if it was less about herding the unwilling around art galleries and more about imparting the vital information that the world didn't begin yesterday whilst sitting them in class listening to classic British rock albums like Revolver; reading George Orwell's novel 1984; watching classic TV shows like Hancock's Half Hour; or classic British movies like A Clockwork Orange.

 

Educational theory today is dominated by the need to build up children's self-esteem and convince them that they are capable of great things. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it's balanced by the parallel message that I used to pick up at school. You're really Not All That.

 

Do you agree or disagree with the viewpoint that children are less aware of the recent cultural past in the UK, then their equivalent in the 1980s?

It always baffled me at school when teachers expected me to know stuff I didn't. Why should I just know things?! I didn't know because I wasn't told, simple as.

 

An easy example is the moon landings (fret not! I am aware of them!) - if someone asked a kid today to name who landed on the moon and when they probably wouldn't know, and we'd be appauled since it was such a historic event. BUT, I think it's simply BECAUSE it's so monumental and memorable for those who were around, we've sort of forgotten to pass it on? Because it's such a big thing in the public sphere, we assume that EVERYONE knows, young or old, meanwhile presuming that kids are aware of it. In an age where space travel is pretty frequent, kids probably just assume we've always been able to fly to the moon and back as we please!! Similarly, a lot of kids probably wouldn't know an awful lot about World War One or Two, other than they happened, because they haven't been told... A lot of times at work I've explained the EU to the younger staff members after being shell-shocked they didn't really know about it, their retort was "well I've never been told about it, why should I know?"

 

Therefore, I think that yes it might be a deacent idea to dedicate time to making people more aware of things that have happened, however obvious they may seem to us. We can't just expect kids to know about things.

In my experience I find people usually know these things :unsure: I must be lucky! :lol: And I LOVE 80s music (which should be fairly obvious given my favourite artist...), although I accept that these things may be subjective and considered 'naff' when viewed through SAW-tinted glasses in this day and age :lol:

Do kids not read anything any more? I never had my nose out of a book when I was growing up. You don't need to have 'lived through' things to know about them. :blink:

Do kids not read anything any more? I never had my nose out of a book when I was growing up. You don't need to have 'lived through' things to know about them. :blink:

Why read when you can play football or fight on a games cosole?!

 

I'm regularly appalled by peoples inability to read and/or spell (often on here!).

A lot of times at work I've explained the EU to the younger staff members after being shell-shocked they didn't really know about it, their retort was "well I've never been told about it, why should I know?"

 

Therefore, I think that yes it might be a deacent idea to dedicate time to making people more aware of things that have happened, however obvious they may seem to us. We can't just expect kids to know about things.

What? :blink: They are EVEN MORE people who don't know what the EU is? I pissed myself laughing when I was talking to someone once who didn't know what it was! (that person being 20 years old!)

 

I think it's just a case of some people know some things and some people don't know other things, just like a lot of older people don't know about the things of today like who popular bands are right now for example. As for Jupiter's comment it all depends of interest really considering I NEVER read books when I was younger and neither do I now but people pick things up in different ways like for example we're all using the internet what is probably the most powerful source of information right now though some of the information can be incorrect.

I'm regularly appalled by peoples inability to read and/or spell (often on here!).

That annoys the hell of me too! But sometimes it's just people thinking that you should abbreviate or use text language 'because it's quicker' or 'easier'.

Whilst that does irritate I get more annoyed by just stupid spelling and grammar mistakes!

It's up to the person themselves to delve into the past. From a cultural point of view I found myself digging into the past of music, cinema and television and do so even more now given the poor quality of today's output.

 

But when I was in primary school we learned a lot about popular history, including recent history. We wouldn't so much learn that Neil Armstrong was first man on the moon, we learned that Yuri Gagarin preceded him. We did school projects, much of which I still know today. You could argue that the rise of mass media has saturated events and that the only events kids today will be aware of will be things like the death of Princess Diana...and that's only because it's never out of the right wing, middle england press.

 

As for blaming 'punk rock' - I was born in 1977 two weeks after 'White Riot' was released. Besides Johnny Rotten, Joe Strummer et al were very well read young men, very aware of the world events of the time and, Strummer at least, a huge fan of 'old' music.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I was the 1980s counterpart in question and I had a huge thirst for knowledge of the recent past. Others I acquainted with did not - so, again, it's 100% up to the individual.

I want to know how many adults/older people know about the history before them. =/ I'm sorry that we've never had a great history program at my school and that I'm too busy to read Wikipedia all the time?

 

I'm not saying it's not important to know; I like to know I know quite a bit, but who really cares when the first moon landing was? I like to learn about events that can be compared to events going on now which is obviously more important to me than the past. Like looking at past wars is a must for me because history will always repeat itself, but honestly I couldn't give a f*** about dates and whatnot. Ideas / concepts are much more important.

i think the dumbing down of history has more to do with the 'pc brigade' not wanting to offend , or relate to ethnics, a subject that WASNT their past.

 

history is very important, it teaches us who we are, how we became who we are, and highlights the best and worst of our heritage...lessons to be learnt.

Political correctness has definitely played a major part, even Churchill has been dropped from history teachings in schools in the UK now and that is disgraceful, it should be compulsary to learn about people like Churchill in schools and his work but hey with Paris Hiton and Beckham and Nikki Graham about who needs Churchill in modern society :rolleyes:

 

There is no excuse for ignorance

So what do kids learn about now then?

I hated history at school because I could never see the point of it. All my historical knowledge has been gained from reading since I left school.

 

Churchill was never part of my school history. It was all about the industrial revolution etc. and it bored me rigid.

 

I've found it much more interesting to start with the recent past and work backwards because it's easier to see how everything is linked and how it's relevant to where we are today.

Agreed. I was talking about primary school though. Secondary school history was all about industrial revoution, suffragettes, the road to war x 2 etc

 

Maybe I was spoiled by teachers who set interesting projects. I started my lifelong interest in Greek Mythology at school as well as the popular kings / queens of history coupled with the likes of the Great Plague / Fire / Gunpowder Plot. I was hugely interested.

 

My girlfriend's son had to write a short essay on Henry VIII last year and I loved helping him out and he got a lot out of it too. I'm sure it's not dead, I'm sure.

we didnt do churchill as he was still alive when i was at school! :lol:

 

we did everything, from the stoneage through to the industrial age. we didnt do ww1 ww2.

 

we did alot about the crusades and the renaisance.... i think that was right.

We did loads of history at school. Even at primary school.

 

We did the Romans, Greeks, Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, the Vikings, the Industrial revolution etc etc at primary school

 

At secondary we did The Russian Revolution, WW1, the Highland Clearances, the Scottish Wars of independence etc etc. Tons of stuff. With loads of field trips. I loved History. ^_^

We did loads of history at school. Even at primary school.

 

We did the Romans, Greeks, Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, the Vikings, the Industrial revolution etc etc at primary school

 

At secondary we did The Russian Revolution, WW1, the Highland Clearances, the Scottish Wars of independence etc etc. Tons of stuff. With loads of field trips. I loved History. ^_^

 

 

I did all that in History it was my favourite subject and I loved it, especially going to museums, to learn more, for example, The Crimean War, Florence Nightmare, I just love reading up on the Tudor Years, with all the different kings and queens of Britain, and by collecting stamps, you get to learn more about history.

 

The only problem with my grammar is because I'm dyslexic, and get my past and present tense mixed up.

The Past is Another Country as they say ^_^

we didnt do churchill as he was still alive when i was at school! :lol:

 

My god! How old are you? I was six when I remember watching his funeral on TV. You don't come across as ancient if you don't mind me saying so Rob!

 

we did everything, from the stoneage through to the industrial age. we didnt do ww1 ww2.

 

we did alot about the crusades and the renaisance.... i think that was right.

 

We did Stonehenge and stuff in an ancient subject called 'Humanities' we started our history lessons in Secondary school at the Jacobite Rebellion - I remember being jealous of those a few years later starting with 'bang-up-to-date' stuff like World War 1! :lol: :lol:

 

I do think we have become a dumbed down society though - but it hasn't happened just recently - its happened gradually over about the last 20 odd years. Thatcher probably has a lot to answer for! No - don't take that seriously - I just hate the old bat! Mark Herman says everything that's wrong with the world in Brassed Off!

 

If you watch quiz shows lately (with contestants in their 30's and 40's) you'll know what I mean ... I think - my god - these people had probably the same education as me - and yet they are positively thick! And no - I don't mean answering questions on trivial pop culture and entertainment - I mean stuff that mattered - like world leaders, etc. Sometimes I do despair! Anyway - must be off now!

 

Norma