After running elections, and the ANC (African National Congress) continued their governmental rule with over 60% of the vote going their way. The Democratic Aliance held on to their 2nd spot and the new ANC breakaway party came a close 3rd.

The issue is that an ANC breakaway party manifests how unstable the ANC (government) and is why our previous president Thabo Mbeki resigned - he was victimised by new president Jacob Zuma and the labelled 'lunatic' ANC Youth League president.

What's even more worrying is that Jacob Zuma was fired from government for rape, fraud and corruption charges and now he's our new president! :o

One of his favourite quotes is "You can't get AIDS if you shower straight after intercourse" ;o

There is really nothing South Africa can do, we still are extremely divided due to the employment equity and if people vote for a corrupt rapist as president - it tells you how insecure they are about their position.

I think with black people being 9/10 in South Africa, the ruling "black" party will always win irrespective of if the president is Bush or some serial killer.

A sad day in South African history, not even Nelson Mandela is pleased at what's going on within the government. I truly miss those days when Mandela was ruling, the days when everyone was truly united.

tbh South Africa was better off under white rule / apartheid

 

Its a sad fact that South Africa has been in way worse state since the ANC took over than it ever was under white rule, there are more murders per head of population in South Africa than anywhere else in the world, AIDS is rife, poverty is increasing to dramatic levels, South Africa was in better state under white rule, blacks in Southern Africa simply don't know how to govern themselves, look at what has happened to Zimbabwe too since Ian Smith handed over to Mugabe and South Africa is fast becoming the new Zimbabwe

 

I am not being racist just practical based on what has happened

 

 

tbh South Africa was better off under white rule / apartheid

 

Its a sad fact that South Africa has been in way worse state since the ANC took over than it ever was under white rule, there are more murders per head of population in South Africa than anywhere else in the world, AIDS is rife, poverty is increasing to dramatic levels, South Africa was in better state under white rule, blacks in Southern Africa simply don't know how to govern themselves, look at what has happened to Zimbabwe too since Ian Smith handed over to Mugabe and South Africa is fast becoming the new Zimbabwe

 

I am not being racist just practical based on what has happened

 

Whilst I would say you are currently factually incorrect with regards to South Africa being worse off now than under white rule, the way things are going suggests your statement will soon be factually correct.

 

 

Using the United Nations internationally recognised Human Development Index (a measure of GDP; life expectancy; education; health; etc) in 1985 South Africa was ranked 125th; largely due to the lack of education provided towards 90% of the population by the ruling Apartheid government and the international embargoes that were in place (despite the best efforts of a certain Conservative Prime Minister at the time).

 

However, once Nelson Mandela was released and the ANC took power things got rapidly better (up to 95th in 1995); before initially falling away a little by the turn of the decade (101st in 1999). But since Nelson Mandela left office; things are getting rapidly worse; so by the last HDI for 2007 South Africa was ranked 121st due to the Aids crisis and the Government not maintaining the expenditure on infrastructure as they were under Mandela instead spending it on things more befitting an African dictatorship.

Whilst I would say you are currently factually incorrect with regards to South Africa being worse off now than under white rule, the way things are going suggests your statement will soon be factually correct.

Using the United Nations internationally recognised Human Development Index (a measure of GDP; life expectancy; education; health; etc) in 1985 South Africa was ranked 125th; largely due to the lack of education provided towards 90% of the population by the ruling Apartheid government and the international embargoes that were in place (despite the best efforts of a certain Conservative Prime Minister at the time).

 

However, once Nelson Mandela was released and the ANC took power things got rapidly better (up to 95th in 1995); before initially falling away a little by the turn of the decade (101st in 1999). But since Nelson Mandela left office; things are getting rapidly worse; so by the last HDI for 2007 South Africa was ranked 121st due to the Aids crisis and the Government not maintaining the expenditure on infrastructure as they were under Mandela instead spending it on things more befitting an African dictatorship.

Exactly, couldn't have said it more factually correct myself.

Our government "tries" but often falls short because they are either uneducated, racist or involved in crime? Hence why black people in our country are uneducated because they're voting for uneducated people so they see being uneducated as okay and when asked why don't they have jobs - Apartheid is just a convenient excuse

I think that the majority of black people are still falling back on Apartheid too much, I mean it's 15 years ago and they're still using employment equity and black economic empowerment to frightening extents, it took my cousin 2 years before he could get into varsity, not because he was dumb (he had straight As) but because he was white! So black people who were barely even around during Apartheid are now taking advantage and unfairly stealing opportunities that other people deserve more

Sometimes I even think the ANC is trying to drive out white and foreign people out of South Africa, when I look at how the white generation that wasn't even involved in Apartheid are now suffering because of their biasness and racist ways of governing

I think that the majority of black people are still falling back on Apartheid too much, I mean it's 15 years ago and they're still using employment equity and black economic empowerment to frightening extents, it took my cousin 2 years before he could get into varsity, not because he was dumb (he had straight As) but because he was white! So black people who were barely even around during Apartheid are now taking advantage and unfairly stealing opportunities that other people deserve more

Sometimes I even think the ANC is trying to drive out white and foreign people out of South Africa, when I look at how the white generation that wasn't even involved in Apartheid are now suffering because of their biasness and racist ways of governing

 

Exactly, what we have now in South Africa is effectively BLACK apartheid which is just as bad if not worse than anything that happened under PW Botha as the ANC are merely doing what they fought so hard against when it was done to them, sure blacks and whites are llowed more freedom in terms of non segregation than was under Botha but whites are suffering economic apartheid where bias is given to blacks at every single level and the whites are the oppressed.

 

I really fear for South Africa in the next 10-20 years I really do see it becoming the next Zimbabwe which is a shame as it is a beautiful country

 

There is a lot to be said fr white rule right across Africa, every country that is "independent" and black self governed is a complete and utter mess economically and socially in Africa, can anyone name a country where black rule is actually benefitting the people and there is prosperity and stability ? no one could

 

Africa needs white rule as blacks in Africa have proved right across the continent they are incapable of managing their own affairs

 

Anyone that thinks I am being racist (I am not) please name a stable black ruled country in Africa

Edited May 3, 200916 yr by B.A Baracus

Exactly, what we have now in South Africa is effectively BLACK apartheid which is just as bad if not worse than anything that happened under PW Botha as the ANC are merely doing what they fought so hard against when it was done to them, sure blacks and whites are llowed more freedom in terms of non segregation than was under Botha but whites are suffering economic apartheid where bias is given to blacks at every single level and the whites are the oppressed.

 

I really fear for South Africa in the next 10-20 years I really do see it becoming the next Zimbabwe which is a shame as it is a beautiful country

 

There is a lot to be said fr white rule right across Africa, every country that is "independent" and black self governed is a complete and utter mess economically and socially in Africa, can anyone name a country where black rule is actually benefitting the people and there is prosperity and stability ? no one could

 

Africa needs white rule as blacks in Africa have proved right across the continent they are incapable of managing their own affairs

 

Anyone that thinks I am being racist (I am not) please name a stable black ruled country in Africa

Stable black ruled country in Africa? Ever heard of Botswana? Ghana? Tanzania? The Seychelles? What a load of patronising f***ing bull$h!t - it has nothing to do with the fact that they're BLACK that these countries are failing, you talk as if white people by their very nature know better so don't even try to come out with your absolute bull$h!t...you are being racist even if you don't see it yourself. You are effectively saying that one race makes a better ruling class than the other by the very nature of their racial background - a textbook definition of racism! :manson:

Stable black ruled country in Africa? Ever heard of Botswana? Ghana? Tanzania? The Seychelles? What a load of patronising f***ing bull$h!t - it has nothing to do with the fact that they're BLACK that these countries are failing, you talk as if white people by their very nature know better so don't even try to come out with your absolute bull$h!t...you are being racist even if you don't see it yourself. You are effectively saying that one race makes a better ruling class than the other by the very nature of their racial background - a textbook definition of racism! :manson:

 

Ghana had political strife until recently, remember Jerry Rawlings ? remember the coups ? the stolen election, the human rights abuses ? now that Rawlings has gone Ghana is improving yes

 

Botswana the president was educated in and military trained in Britain, he is accustomed to Western ways and is very much a black Western orientated leader

 

Tanzania I will give you that one

 

Seychells do you remember France-Albert Rene ? he was educated in and graduated in England, wasnt he 22 or something before he went to the Seychelles ?

 

With 2 of them you have proved my point that 2 of the stable countries you listed are/were run by England educated people as opposed to the assortment of tribesmen/natives/voodoo witch doctors that rule Africa

 

The rest of Africa is still a bloody mess mate

Edited May 3, 200916 yr by B.A Baracus

I really don't think black people as a whole are incapable of governing a country. I just think the majority of them can't, the likes of Mandela could because he wasn't biased to one race/or group of society. He was educated, fair and everything a president needs to be..

The issue starts when the ruling government/president is biased to a particular group in society - most of the chaos in Africa is because of civil wars but in countries like Botswana and Tanzania which have the same 9/10 black/white ratio as South Africa, where their ruling party isn't 80% corrupt or isn't biased to a certain society group or isn't uneducated..

But I do agree with Craig that SA is heading down the Zim road, with the criminals and lunatics running our country it'll be a proven fact..

I'm not racist but generally you do get two types of black people:

- the educated, moralised and well mannered ones

- the thugs

 

The MAJORITY of Africa is ruled by type 2, the thugs in suits and ties. If you see an interview with the new SA president, Jacob Zuma - you can even see how evil and thugish he is in the way he says things and smiles.

Zuma definitely does fit into the Mugabe category as well, and the ruling parties across Africa usually do criminally take advantage of their power, it's almost fact. If the public would just shift their votes it'd be a different story but that will never happen. The success of a country depends on the government's actions and when you have a government like SA does - where ministers are driving drunk in car accidents, where 3/4 of the government has been charged with millions from fraud, where rapists are grining as money falls into their laps and where racism is the definition in most of their implementations - you definitely do worry about the future and prosperity of the country ..

What might happen to South Africa now? Crime will become worse, nothing will be done about the problems South Africa is trying to overcome, and there's nothing anyone can do... except war.

Ghana had political strife until recently, remember Jerry Rawlings ? remember the coups ? the stolen election, the human rights abuses ? now that Rawlings has gone Ghana is improving yes

 

Botswana the president was educated in and military trained in Britain, he is accustomed to Western ways and is very much a black Western orientated leader

 

Tanzania I will give you that one

 

Seychells do you remember France-Albert Rene ? he was educated in and graduated in England, wasnt he 22 or something before he went to the Seychelles ?

 

With 2 of them you have proved my point that 2 of the stable countries you listed are/were run by England educated people as opposed to the assortment of tribesmen/natives/voodoo witch doctors that rule Africa

 

The rest of Africa is still a bloody mess mate

You asked for examples of stable, black-run countries in Africa. Notwithstanding the past under Rawlings, Ghana is currently a stable democracy.

 

Much of Africa suffers from the same problems as many former communist states. A majority can agree on what they're against but not necessarily what they're for. A lot of the former communist states in eastern Europe have had the advantage of the support of the European Union, whereas African countries have had far less help.

You asked for examples of stable, black-run countries in Africa. Notwithstanding the past under Rawlings, Ghana is currently a stable democracy.

 

Much of Africa suffers from the same problems as many former communist states. A majority can agree on what they're against but not necessarily what they're for. A lot of the former communist states in eastern Europe have had the advantage of the support of the European Union, whereas African countries have had far less help.

 

It would probably never happen but I would like to see maybe through the UN a task force of Western "administrators" created who can move in under the authority of the UN and take over failing nations from their governments and turn them around economically and socially so say for example an African nation was not reaching the required standards the UN appoint administrators (management consultants or Arthur Andersen type people) from the task force to move in and take over those nations and get them up to the required standard

but what happens when these UN people leave? or the natural resistance the citizens will feel to the west's meddling in their affairs?

 

instead of taking over, i would say advising and helping would be far more pro-active.

 

if the government is struggling an independent outside body may be able to see the tiny thing that has gone wrong that may have been overlooked by the government and then advise behind the scenes on the best strategy, therefore it looks from the outside that the people they elected are making these positive changes and the leaders themselves learn so that when the advisor's are happy that their presence is no longer required to give their advice then then can leave knowing that the country has the knowledge to keep itself on the straight and narrow.

 

But tbh, the west isn't exactly brilliant at governement at times is it? Blair/Brown, Thatcher, Bush to name but a few.

It would probably never happen but I would like to see maybe through the UN a task force of Western "administrators" created who can move in under the authority of the UN and take over failing nations from their governments and turn them around economically and socially so say for example an African nation was not reaching the required standards the UN appoint administrators (management consultants or Arthur Andersen type people) from the task force to move in and take over those nations and get them up to the required standard

You mean the Arthur Andersen people who signed off the Enron accounts? :lol: Not the best example you could have chosen.

 

It's a nice idea in principle but we all know that at least one of the permanent members of the security council would probably veto any attempt to take over any given country, even an obvious basket case such as Zimbabwe.

but what happens when these UN people leave? or the natural resistance the citizens will feel to the west's meddling in their affairs?

 

instead of taking over, i would say advising and helping would be far more pro-active.

 

if the government is struggling an independent outside body may be able to see the tiny thing that has gone wrong that may have been overlooked by the government and then advise behind the scenes on the best strategy, therefore it looks from the outside that the people they elected are making these positive changes and the leaders themselves learn so that when the advisor's are happy that their presence is no longer required to give their advice then then can leave knowing that the country has the knowledge to keep itself on the straight and narrow.

 

But tbh, the west isn't exactly brilliant at governement at times is it? Blair/Brown, Thatcher, Bush to name but a few.

 

Would those countries accept consultants though ? places like say Liberia, Zimbabwe, Etheopia, Sierra Leone for example, there needs to be a situation where these people have executive power to take whatever measures are necessary and they see fit to carry out

 

The UN would set every nation in the world a series of targets both economical and social and if the presidents of these countries don't reach these targets they are in breach of contract and it is done for them by the "task force"

You mean the Arthur Andersen people who signed off the Enron accounts? :lol: Not the best example you could have chosen.

 

It's a nice idea in principle but we all know that at least one of the permanent members of the security council would probably veto any attempt to take over any given country, even an obvious basket case such as Zimbabwe.

 

LOL yeah true about Arthur Andersen but when I was writing I had to think quickly about the name of a world famous management consultancy/administrators and they were the first ones that came into my head

..And just what is the difference between corrupt, white politicians and corrupt black politicians then, are the likes of Zuma and Mugabe actually worse than the likes of Putin, Milosovic or Dubya Bush.....? Craig, for you to imply the majority of South Africans were somehow better off under apartheid is a complete load of sh!te, the blacks are the majority, and they might be more inclined to trust white politicians a tad more if they hadn't been so brutally treated for generations by white politicians..... :rolleyes: For example, I dont, and never will trust the Tories because of the Thatcher regime that I was brought up under as a kid, and saw the consequences of that regime on my friends and my own family... I dont really blame the black South Africans for not exactly being to ready to trust white politicians tbh... Sorry, Kath, you just cannot wipe out hundreds of years of Colonialism and imperialism just in a couple of decades, Apartheid is still very much living memory for the vast majority of Black South Africans, just as Thatcherism is living memory for the vast majority of Scottish people who will never, ever vote Tory again, and probably much the same thing will happen with the Labour party now because of "Nu Labor"; why do you think the Scottish Nationalists have done so incredibly well in Scotland in the past few years....? People are sick of "Labour", but will never trust the Tories because of Thatcher and what she and the Tories did to Scotland.... So now, because of it, they're turning to a bunch of numpties like Salmond instead of voting for the Lib Dems or a genuinely Socialist party.... :rolleyes:

 

Zuma's a piece of sh!t, sure, but he's their piece of sh!t, and, unfortunately, that's what' important.... And, despite all the bad things that may come along with it, I still believe that BLACK Africans should be in charge of their own destinies and not treated like children by the "white massa" who somehow knows better... If these people are uneducted, then that's the direct fault of Colonialism/Apartheid that's created people like Mugabe, Idi Amin, the Congolese president, and Zuma.... And it's all very well to talk about the violence and murders committed by the likes of Mugabe, but, how many black Africans and Arabic North Africans were slaughtered by the Brits, French, Dutch and Belgians... FUKKIN' MILLIONS.... The Europeans slaughtered WAY more black Africans in the period in the late 1800s known as the "Scramble for Africa", than Hitler killed Jews during the Holocaust, and people know bugger all about this, it's been airbrushed out of history... But Christ knows, we sure as hell all know what happened to the Jews because of the literally, hundreds of books and films..... :rolleyes:

 

No, sorry, all things considered, I really dont blame Black Africans for not exactly being too keen to trust white politicians.....

Sorry, Kath, you just cannot wipe out hundreds of years of Colonialism and imperialism just in a couple of decades, Apartheid is still very much living memory for the vast majority of Black South Africans

 

Well, now it's the other way round. The MAJORITY of the new black population couldn't care less about Apartheid because they weren't in that generation. Now the new white generation is suffering from this whole 'payback/restoration' thing that's now in place and they weren't even involved in Apartheid!

I was 2 years old when Apartheid ended and now I'm the white person who can't get into varsity or get a job because every other black person who was also only 2 years old when Apartheid ended are now getting free tickets to university irrespective of how dedicated they even are to their work

"Apartheid is still in the back of the black people's minds" is the biggest load of BULL$h!t, I LIVE in South Africa and i'm sick to death of hearing that $h!t. What more do the revenge driven black people want from this innocent white generation?! They've got all the power, all the money, all the jobs, all the education, they've taken, renamed and vandalised all our land AND now after 15 YEARS they are stilll allowed to use Apartheid as a convenient excuse to get what they want and to deliberately p*** off white people..

Honestly I LOVE black people, I listen to Jazmine Sullivan and several rnb artists 24/7, and I'd even sleep with Will Smith or LL Cool J - I think they're really hottt. But the way things are in SA, which you wouldn't know, drives me to hate the black people of our country, and honestly that's exactly what they want, to eliminate any chance of white people surviving in SA.

It's SICK. It's no democracy. It's one big revenge action. If the black people could control their overpopulation it'd be a much better country, with less poverty but if they keep having babies they can't afford - SA will still be in the crisis its in, they'd still be leaning back on Apartheid, and the white people's lives will become even more hell..

If you live in SA, you'd know EVERYONE is over Apartheid - its long in the past, we all shop at the same shops, live in the same towns etc. The issue is that the government just wants more and more and more, along with the majority of the black population. They're never happy with anything, the only thing that I think will make them happy is if there's not one white person left in South Africa!

 

Apartheid isn't MY fault, so why should I be suffering? Because I'm white? It's a passively active Re-Apartheid against white people that's been happening ever since Mandela left.

 

Mandela employed equal rights for everyone. And now all the rights and are biased to black people 15 years down the line, and I'm supposed suffer for what my previous generation did? Pretty effed up.

Well, now it's the other way round. The MAJORITY of the new black population couldn't care less about Apartheid because they weren't in that generation. Now the new white generation is suffering from this whole 'payback/restoration' thing that's now in place and they weren't even involved in Apartheid!

I was 2 years old when Apartheid ended and now I'm the white person who can't get into varsity or get a job because every other black person who was also only 2 years old when Apartheid ended are now getting free tickets to university irrespective of how dedicated they even are to their work

"Apartheid is still in the back of the black people's minds" is the biggest load of BULL$h!t, I LIVE in South Africa and i'm sick to death of hearing that $h!t. What more do the revenge driven black people want from this innocent white generation?! They've got all the power, all the money, all the jobs, all the education, they've taken, renamed and vandalised all our land AND now after 15 YEARS they are stilll allowed to use Apartheid as a convenient excuse to get what they want and to deliberately p*** off white people..

Honestly I LOVE black people, I listen to Jazmine Sullivan and several rnb artists 24/7, and I'd even sleep with Will Smith or LL Cool J - I think they're really hottt. But the way things are in SA, which you wouldn't know, drives me to hate the black people of our country, and honestly that's exactly what they want, to eliminate any chance of white people surviving in SA.

It's SICK. It's no democracy. It's one big revenge action. If the black people could control their overpopulation it'd be a much better country, with less poverty but if they keep having babies they can't afford - SA will still be in the crisis its in, they'd still be leaning back on Apartheid, and the white people's lives will become even more hell..

If you live in SA, you'd know EVERYONE is over Apartheid - its long in the past, we all shop at the same shops, live in the same towns etc. The issue is that the government just wants more and more and more, along with the majority of the black population. They're never happy with anything, the only thing that I think will make them happy is if there's not one white person left in South Africa!

 

Apartheid isn't MY fault, so why should I be suffering? Because I'm white? It's a passively active Re-Apartheid against white people that's been happening ever since Mandela left.

 

Mandela employed equal rights for everyone. And now all the rights and are biased to black people 15 years down the line, and I'm supposed suffer for what my previous generation did? Pretty effed up.

 

No offence Kathh, but that is a very jaundiced perspective, tbh.... You dont seem to realise the facts that so much still has to be done to redress the balance.... You complain about not getting into uni, well, just think about however many millions of black people that went before you didn't get into uni simply because of the colour of their skin...

 

Maybe there is an element of revenge about it, but, well, like I say, if your ancestors had treated people with a bit more respect in the first place.... :rolleyes: You should be blaming your parents and grandparents generations more than the ordinary blacks tbh.... If Apartheid had never existed, you probably wouldn't be getting treated the way you are now.... It's a simple law of the universe Kath, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, so, unfortunately you're going to have to get used to the situation existing for at least another generation.....

 

Dont get me wrong, I dont like this guy Zuma, he's probably just as poisonous for blacks as he is for whites, but, he's been voted in, so short of a popular uprising happening, you're stuck with him for the next few years, just like we're stuck with that tw@t Gordon Brown..... :rolleyes: There's really no such thing as a good leader anywhere in the world Kath.....

No offence Kathh, but that is a very jaundiced perspective, tbh.... You dont seem to realise the facts that so much still has to be done to redress the balance.... You complain about not getting into uni, well, just think about however many millions of black people that went before you didn't get into uni simply because of the colour of their skin...

 

Maybe there is an element of revenge about it, but, well, like I say, if your ancestors had treated people with a bit more respect in the first place.... :rolleyes: You should be blaming your parents and grandparents generations more than the ordinary blacks tbh.... If Apartheid had never existed, you probably wouldn't be getting treated the way you are now.... It's a simple law of the universe Kath, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, so, unfortunately you're going to have to get used to the situation existing for at least another generation.....

 

Dont get me wrong, I dont like this guy Zuma, he's probably just as poisonous for blacks as he is for whites, but, he's been voted in, so short of a popular uprising happening, you're stuck with him for the next few years, just like we're stuck with that tw@t Gordon Brown..... :rolleyes: There's really no such thing as a good leader anywhere in the world Kath.....

 

2 wrongs don't make a right though

 

That is part of the problem with Zimbabwe, because of the treatment of blacks under Smith the blacks think it is alright to sieze white farms and white land and basically terrorise the population of whites, African version of ethnic cleansing and the same thing will happen in South Africa unless the blacks get a grip and get over apartheid, doing reverse apartheid is as f***ed up as anything Botha did. The more I see and read of Zuma the more he reminds me of Mugabe

Edited May 4, 200916 yr by B.A Baracus

2 wrongs don't make a right though

 

That is part of the problem with Zimbabwe, because of the treatment of blacks under Smith the blacks think it is alright to sieze white farms and white land and basically terrorise the population of whites, African version of ethnic cleansing and the same thing will happen in South Africa unless the blacks get a grip and get over apartheid, doing reverse apartheid is as f***ed up as anything Botha did. The more I see and read of Zuma the more he reminds me of Mugabe

 

Maybe not, but it's understandable to oppress the oppressors once you get rid of them so they cant oppress you again, none of us sitting here in our safe European homes will ever appreciate what it's like for an Black African who has had that history, so I dont think we can really say that in similar circumstances we wouldn't do exactly the same, I mean, many people in Poland, Czech Republic and Russia are still quite hostile towards the Germans even 60 years after WW2, and some tensions and resentment still exist between China and Japan..... I'm afraid I have little sympathy for whites in SA or Zimbabwe, or the French in Morocco and Algeria, they lorded it over the people for hundreds of years, that's gonna breed resentment and revolution, simple as..... There were always going to be consequences for our actions, too bad the innocent have to suffer for the arrogance of their ancestors....

 

The situation in Zimbabwe could have mostly been avoided by Thatcher and the tories entering into real negotiations over land reform I reckon, they continually put off these discussions and Mugabe just got fed up with being fobbed off by the Tories and took matters into his own hands.... Cant really blame him for that tbh.... Everything else he's done is horrendous, but I believe that a lot of it could've been avoided simply by playing fair with the guy from day one when he kicked out Smith (because, let's face it, it WAS a popular uprising, the majority of Zimbabweans wanted rid of Smith like it or not, and they had no voting rights, so what else could they do except revolt?), it was actually quite a few years before he decided to simply seize the farms, if the UK Govt entered into very real land reform talks, as it was their duty to do so, given that Zim was a former UK colony, I dont think it would've played out the way it has in Zim, land was at the very heart of the debate in Zim....

 

By comparison, the revolution in SA was a largely bloodless affair, but Mandela just completely lost the plot by letting the criminals who oppressed the black majority off the hook... These b/astards should've all been put on trial for human rights abuses for what they did, Mandela simply let the whole bloody lot of them get away with it.... Truth and Reconciliation is all very well, but, it did rather feel like these people were gloating, and saying "Yeah, we did all this evil sh!t, but ha ha, we're not being prosecuted".. I'd find that very hard to bear personally if I was a black south african....