He's about to get fired, isn't he?

 

Of course not, after all Rupert Murdoch has no editorial control over Sky News. He even said that himself. :rolleyes:

 

Adam Boulton has gone up a notch in my opinion. He's up to notch 1.

Of course not, after all Rupert Murdoch has no editorial control over Sky News. He even said that himself. :rolleyes:

 

Adam Boulton has gone up a notch in my opinion. He's up to notch 1.

Well yes, but one presumes the people who ARE in charge of Sky News have roughly similar views to Murdoch.

I wish I could say that Sayeeda Warsi has gone down in my estimation but as I thought she was useless before seeing this interview, that isn't possible. What makes her think "I don't know what you mean" is a good answer to a question? If she really is as stupid as she seemed in that interview, she shouldn't be receiving a Cabinet Minister's salary from the taxpayer.

 

Note - she is the Tory Party Chair. There have been times when the Party Chair's Cabinet salary has been paid by the Tory Party. I'm not sure whether that's the case with her.

I wish I could say that Sayeeda Warsi has gone down in my estimation but as I thought she was useless before seeing this interview, that isn't possible. What makes her think "I don't know what you mean" is a good answer to a question? If she really is as stupid as she seemed in that interview, she shouldn't be receiving a Cabinet Minister's salary from the taxpayer.

 

Note - she is the Tory Party Chair. There have been times when the Party Chair's Cabinet salary has been paid by the Tory Party. I'm not sure whether that's the case with her.

As far as I'm aware she's unpaid as a Minister Without Portfolio.

As far as I'm aware she's unpaid as a Minister Without Portfolio.

That still makes her overpaid :lol:

When the f*** is there a boxing match with five or six people in it? I can't stand this stupid woman, her campaign and their ridiculous lies.

 

Bring in compulsory voting - I can't stand people who say "I can't be arsed" and then go around complaining about cuts etc.

 

Does make a change to be cheering on Adam Boulton though.

I found this quite interesting...

 

Johann Hari: If you get the X Factor you'll get AV

 

You can vote No with David Cameron, the BNP and a campaign that thinks you are too thick to count to three

 

The economy is bleeding by the side of the road. We are bombing another oil-rich Muslim country. The planet is hotter now than it has been for three million years. And I want to talk today about why we should vote to change the voting system here in Britain next week. No! Wait! Don't lapse into a coma! Stab cigarettes into your arm to stay conscious! Stay with me! We only get to do this once in a generation.

 

Today, I have a Member of Parliament I didn't vote for. So do you, in all likelihood. So do 66 per cent of us. At first glance, that seems impossible in a democracy. How can a huge majority of us end up with an MP we didn't vote for? Isn't the whole point of democracy that the majority prevails?

 

Not under our current voting system - First Past the Post (which I'm going to refer to with the sexy acronym FPTP). Next month, we are being offered an alternative - the Alternative Vote (AV). The difference is pretty simple. Under FPTP, you put a cross next to the person you want as your MP. Under AV, you number them 1,2,3 - so I could express my desire for the Greens first, Labour second, and so on, for as many parties as I want to give my approval to. Why does such a small tweak make a difference? The best way to think about it is to look at The X Factor. In the first week of the live performances, you have 12 candidates - including the poor weeping girl groups who are always doomed to be tossed out at once, only to howl into the camera "You haven't heard the last of uuuuus!"

 

The votes of the public are divided across these 12 contestants, so obviously nobody will get majority support. The most popular candidate at that very first step might get 30 per cent. If The X Factor declared that person to be the winner of the entire show there and then, it would be an FPTP election - and a replica of how we select our MPs now.

 

Yet most of us would think that was a bit odd. Should somebody who enthuses only a small but vocal minority win outright, even though most people are against them? It would markedly change the result of the show, producing a winner who would satisfy far fewer people - this year, it might have been Aiden Grimshaw, or One Direction. It would delight a minority, but bemuse the rest. That's why we are the only country in the entire European Union that chooses MPs like this.

 

There is another way on offer in the referendum on 5 May. It is to keep knocking out the most unpopular contestant round after round, until you finally get a winner who has more than 50 per cent support and can be drowned in confetti and Cheryl Cole's hairspray. That's exactly how AV works. Obviously, you can't force people to traipse to the polling booths for 12 weeks in a row, so you condense it by getting them to list the order in which they like the candidates. So if you choose the political equivalent of Cher Lloyd and she gets knocked out, they transfer your vote to your next favourite, Rebecca Ferguson, until somebody gets a majority.

 

This system has a series of obvious advantages. At the moment, your MP can appeal to a small minority and win. Under AV, she will have to work harder to appeal to a majority of people in your area - and you can express your political desires much more clearly. For example, I want a government that is more left-wing and more green than either Labour or the Tories, but at every election under FPTP, I have no way of saying that. If I vote Green, I risk splitting the centre-left vote, and letting a Tory win - the result I want least. So I have to vote Labour, even though it's an uncomfortable fit (especially at the height of New Labour). Under AV, you and I can express our views much more clearly.

 

It's a pretty small and moderate change. Most of the elections since the War would have ended with the same Prime Minister, although, according to Professor John Curtice's calculations, the Liberal Democrats would have replaced the Tories as the official opposition after 1997, and there would have been an option to have a Lib-Lab coalition in 2010.

 

Against this, the No to AV campaign has run the oddest political campaign in living memory. Their central argument is that the British people are too thick to understand the argument I've just made. Their broadcasts are filled with puzzled voters who are left helpless at the idea of counting 1,2,3 in the ballot box, and end up raging in incomprehension and begging to be allowed just to draw a cross. They then fall into such confusion they accidentally elect a fascist. I almost admire the boldness of this political message: vote No to AV because you and your friends are clearly brain-damaged.

 

When this argument gained little traction, they switched to another one. This next sentence is not a joke: check out their website to see it for yourself. They said that voting for AV would kill premature babies and soldiers in Afghanistan. Really. They bought ads showing these vulnerable groups, and claimed AV would take £250m directly from their incubators and body armour and squander it on counting. There's only one problem. The figure is made up. Where did it come from? They claimed AV requires voting machines costing £120m - even though Australia has AV and counts its ballots by hand. Then they included the cost of the referendum itself - which is happening now, whether you vote no or not.

 

Their arguments just got weirder and weirder. They claimed AV gives some people "two or three votes." How? If I go into a shop to buy a Mars bar and they've run out so I get my second preference - a Twix - do I leave with two chocolate bars? Then they claimed - in Sayeeda Warsi's words - "a vote for AV is a vote for the BNP". This can only be consciously dishonest. In reality the BNP is campaigning against AV, because they know it kills their chances: they might conceivably get 25 percent in a seat one day, but they'll never get 50 percent. This is the importing of the most crude Karl Rove-style tactics to Britain.

 

All this is a shame, because there is a real criticism of AV that has gone unheard. It's that it doesn't go nearly far enough. Nick Clegg once called it "a miserable little compromise", and there's some truth in that. Sauced with plenty of irony, AV wouldn't be my first preference.

 

Let me explain. In Britain today, we have a centre-left majority who want this to be a country with European-level taxes, European-standard public services and European-level equality. We have had this for a very long time. Even at the height of Thatcherism, 56 per cent of people voted for parties committed to higher taxes and higher spending. But the centre-left vote is split between several parties - while the right-wing vote clusters around the Conservatives. So under FPTP they get to rule and dominate out of all proportion to their actual support, and drag most of us in a direction we don't want to go. That's why the Tories are united in supporting the current system, and throwing a fortune at preventing any change.

 

AV takes a small step towards dealing with this - but it still doesn't get us very far. As his last act in public life, Roy Jenkins drew up a plan for a system that takes all the best of AV, and then makes it even better. It's called AV-Plus. (Stab another cigarette in your eyes now if they're drooping.)

 

Here's how it works. You vote in your constituency by AV to get your MP, who will now have majority support. Then - here's the Plus part - they add up the vote nationally as well and act to correct any weird lumps in the outcome.

 

So imagine the Greens got 15 per cent of the vote, but only 2 per cent of the seats. The Greens would be given extra "top-up" MPs to make sure they had about 15 per cent in the Commons, to make sure parliament represented the will of the people. You get a stronger constituency link, and stronger proportionality.

 

If you vote for AV, it's a small step in the right direction. If you vote against AV, you kill the possibility of the best system - AV Plus - for generations.

 

It comes down to this. On 5 May, you can vote No with David Cameron, the BNP and a campaign that thinks you are too thick to count to three, or you can vote Yes with all the progressive forces in British politics, massed together to move democracy forward a few small inches. I know what my preference is.

 

That's a pretty darned brilliant article.

Excellent article. X Factor is a very good example. It's been used elsewhere but I've got an awful feeling that some in the Yes campaign would sneer at the idea of using it.

 

There's more on the costs. The No campaign have included the cost of educating people to use AV. However, that figure is also entirely made up. They have taken the cost of educating Scottish voters in the Single Transferrable Vote (like AV but more complicated) and extrapolated that across the UK as if the cost per head would be the same whether educating 40 million people or 4 million. That of course is nonsense. They also ignore the fact that part of that education will have been done in the referendum campaign which wasn't the case in Scotland.

 

I heard yet another Tory claiming that AV was some weird, obscure system even though their own party uses it to elect their leader (albeit X Factor style rather than with one single ballot paper). They also claimed that FPTP was used in most democracies. Yet another lie. What is more, of all the new democracies to emerge in the last 20 years or so, not a single one has chosen to use FPTP. Perhaps the No campaign would like to explain why. That same Tory also claimed that AV always leads to hung parliaments. Wrong again. In fact, there have been more hung parliaments in the UK (under FPTP) than in Australia (under AV) since WWII.

 

The No campaign have less than two weeks to start telling the truth. I won't be holding my breath.

Is this that odious Louise Bagshawe woman?

Is this that odious Louise Bagshawe woman?

That was the one - on HIGNFY last night.

AV is not like the X Factor, given that even if you finish last, you can still make it all the way to the final thanks to the 'veto' powers that the panel have. Also, they don't finish the show several weeks early if one of the candidates gets 50% of the budget. If that happened, ITV would probably have to declare bankruptcy.

 

It also annoys me that both sides of the argument think they can play the 'BNP' card in order to convince you to vote for the other side. Apparently 'ad reducto BNPium', the UK political version of 'ad reducto Hitlerium', seems to be the sure fire way to make yourself seem reasonable without having to rely on little things such as 'arguments.'

 

I will probably be voting 'yes', mainly because it's more fun and it's a step in the right direction, but I'll be glad when the whole damn thing's over.

 

P.S - I hate myself slightly for this, but I find Louise Bagshawe to be weirdly attractive.

The general principle of comparing it with X Factor works reasonably well though. It can also be used to tackle the "some people get more votes than others nonsense". Let's say you have two people watching the programme. Each one votes once every week. One person consistently votes for the contestant who gets eliminated. The other consistently votes for the same contestant every week and that contestant always gets through. Which one has had more votes?

Brilliant once more from Johann.

Read that article the other day, and it's pretty much faultless. The No To AV campaign has angered me more than virtually any single party manifesto I can remember, although it worries me that I've gotten two leaflets through from them and none from the Yes campaign.

A whole group of No campaigners in Bournemouth town centre this morning so I thought I'd engage in a discussion with a couple of them. They seemed a bit uncomfortable talking to someone who knew what he was talking about :lol:

I had another look at the No leaflet today and noticed yet another subtle smear. There's something on the front saying "None of your taxes have been used to print this leaflet". While that is true, they are obviously hoping that people will assume that the Yes campaign leaflet will have been paid for - at least in part - buy the taxpayer. Of course, not a single penny will be paid for from taxes. They also omitted to say that the postal costs (for one leaflet for each campaign) does come from taxation.

 

One of the "celebrities" on the No side is David Gower. He has said that in cricket the winner is the side who scores more runs. He was a player for long enough to know that isn't true. If at the end of a four-day match one side scored 900 in their first innings while the other side scored 200 in their first innings and were 113 for 9 in the second innings, there is no winner. In a one day match decided under Duckworth Lewis (many times more complicated than AV), the side who scores more runs (even if they bat second) can still lose.

I haven't had any AV stuff here, I have had a BNP one though with the rather catchy tagline of 'Vote BNP because we'll stop immigration'

 

 

I laughed so much i got a stitch.

this no campain has genuinely made me more angry than any other political campaign i've seen. i just hope to god that the yes vote prevails, but i'm not very optimistic.

 

also REALLY annoyed that it seems that i'm not going to be able to vote in this. my poll card was delivered to my home address so i went online to apply for a proxy vote (on the day of the deadline) only to find out that i had to POST it and couldn't submit online. i know it's my own fault for not checking and waiting until the last minute but i am slightly annoyed that it wasn't clearer. going to turn up on polling day anyway and see if my name's on the list in london, fingers crossed.

this no campain has genuinely made me more angry than any other political campaign i've seen. i just hope to god that the yes vote prevails, but i'm not very optimistic.

 

also REALLY annoyed that it seems that i'm not going to be able to vote in this. my poll card was delivered to my home address so i went online to apply for a proxy vote (on the day of the deadline) only to find out that i had to POST it and couldn't submit online. i know it's my own fault for not checking and waiting until the last minute but i am slightly annoyed that it wasn't clearer. going to turn up on polling day anyway and see if my name's on the list in london, fingers crossed.

You don't need your polling card to vote. As long as you are registered, you can vote. If you are at university and in a hall of residence, they should have registered everybody in the hall.