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There's seems to be a common theme amongst many Remainers that Brexiters didn't really understand what they were voting for.

 

IMO that line of reasoning is absurd - it was the job of the Remain camp to explain exactly that, and if they failed to adequately do so, the blame for it can't be pinned on Leavers.

 

ISTM therefore, that any criticism they make about the public 'not being fully aware of the consequences' of Brexit simply reflects the deficiencies of their own campaign.

No. They didnt know what they voted for. You cant blame the remain campaign. They pointed out most of the issues but were dismissed as "scaremongerers" and "experts" as if that was a bad thing. Tellingly patently obvious facts were distorted by the liars. Utter liars. Just like Trump. If the Leave campaign had been honest and won the campaign through reasoned argument there would be no complaining about people CHOOSING to be significantly worse off for the forseeable future and your argument would have the moral highground. Instead the general public were lied to and told they would be better off and the NHS would be subsidised more. Of course had they been honest the leave vote would have been substantially less. Blatantly obviously or there would be no need to lie.

 

The reality is the NHS is being hacked at and staff harder to find. Death rates are up.

 

We have not yet left the EU and we still have all thebenefits, incl a brand fab new deal with canada.

 

This is how Canada views the UK and its current position....

 

http://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4294708

 

 

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Wrong again!

You seem to have a real problem with answers they defy your expectations. You seem to think that non-one should dare hold opinions contrary to yours.

 

The referendum bill did *not* specifically state it was non-binding!

 

Our democracy has survived for centuries, so there can't be too much wrong with it... :rolleyes:

 

So di fox hunting and the aristocracy and Divine Rule of Kings! Guess there was nothing wrong with them...

No. They didnt know what they voted for. You cant blame the remain campaign. They pointed out most of the issues but were dismissed as "scaremongerers" and "experts" as if that was a bad thing. Tellingly patently obvious facts were distorted by the liars. Utter liars. Just like Trump. If the Leave campaign had been honest and won the campaign through reasoned argument there would be no complaining about people CHOOSING to be significantly worse off for the forseeable future and your argument would have the moral highground. Instead the general public were lied to and told they would be better off and the NHS would be subsidised more. Of course had they been honest the leave vote would have been substantially less. Blatantly obviously or there would be no need to lie.

 

The reality is the NHS is being hacked at and staff harder to find. Death rates are up.

 

We have not yet left the EU and we still have all thebenefits, incl a brand fab new deal with canada.

 

This is how Canada views the UK and its current position....

 

http://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4294708

 

Absolutely this!

 

Some were WILLFULLY ignorant, ignored you, and believed the lies of the media and got glassy eyed when you explained that, no, the papers could NO be trusted on this. Their emotive, caplocked screams about thr EU for 20 years drowned out any chance of reasonable debate: "EU've only gone and done it now: EU bans CURVED BANANAS!!!!

 

You cant blame the remain campaign.

 

I will. It was far too negative and didn't focus on the positives of being a member of the EU. Cameron was too arrogant to listen to reason.

I agree. The remain campaign was full of flaws. The fact that the leave campaign was legally allowed to produce outright lies and racism is a whole different ballgame.
No. They didnt know what they voted for. You cant blame the remain campaign. They pointed out most of the issues but were dismissed as "scaremongerers" and "experts" as if that was a bad thing. Tellingly patently obvious facts were distorted by the liars. Utter liars. Just like Trump. If the Leave campaign had been honest and won the campaign through reasoned argument there would be no complaining about people CHOOSING to be significantly worse off for the forseeable future and your argument would have the moral highground. Instead the general public were lied to and told they would be better off and the NHS would be subsidised more. Of course had they been honest the leave vote would have been substantially less. Blatantly obviously or there would be no need to lie.

 

Leavers did know they were voting to get out of the EU, that's all that mattered to them - the details of how it would be done were not their concern, as in 'that's what we pay politicians & civil servants for'.

 

 

So di fox hunting and the aristocracy and Divine Rule of Kings! Guess there was nothing wrong with them...

 

Strawman

 

I will. It was far too negative and didn't focus on the positives of being a member of the EU.

 

But that assumes that what Remainers regard as the benefits of EU membership, would also be seen as positives by Leavers. For example, to someone who has no intention of living or working abroad, Freedom Of Movement would be irrelevant at best.

 

I agree. The remain campaign was full of flaws. The fact that the leave campaign was legally allowed to produce outright lies and racism is a whole different ballgame.

 

The idea of putting legal restrictions on political campaigns should be anathema to anyone who believes in democracy.

 

Say the Tories were to ban Labour from making party political broadcasts, putting up posters, and ban supporters from putting up 'vote Labour' stickers in their windows...

 

That's the sort of slippery slope towards dictatorship we'd be on if the law got involved in political campaigns. :(

That's the sort of slippery slope towards dictatorship we'd be on if the law got involved in political campaigns. :(

I hate to break it to you, but the law is already quite involved in political campaigns.

I will. It was far too negative and didn't focus on the positives of being a member of the EU. Cameron was too arrogant to listen to reason.

Flawed and exaggerated is cause for complaint - not least the deliberately rubbish performance of the leader of the labour party.

 

However, the blame lies with the ones pulling the trigger while claiming it will make you free, not the ones ineffectively saying that its a bad thing to shoot yourself in the head.

Leavers did know they were voting to get out of the EU, that's all that mattered to them - the details of how it would be done were not their concern, as in 'that's what we pay politicians & civil servants for'.

Strawman

But that assumes that what Remainers regard as the benefits of EU membership, would also be seen as positives by Leavers. For example, to someone who has no intention of living or working abroad, Freedom Of Movement would be irrelevant at best.

The idea of putting legal restrictions on political campaigns should be anathema to anyone who believes in democracy.

 

Say the Tories were to ban Labour from making party political broadcasts, putting up posters, and ban supporters from putting up 'vote Labour' stickers in their windows...

 

That's the sort of slippery slope towards dictatorship we'd be on if the law got involved in political campaigns. :(

1. People based their vote on many reasons. You continue to deny reality because it is convenient for you to assume everyone voted for it regardless of consequences. That is a lie. I know many who voted for specific campaign lies they were told, and were anxious over making the right decision for the country. Scale that up over the nation and leave lose the referendum.

 

2. The notion that russian forces had a hand in the leave campaign is not an example if democracy. If you allow that, and the american rightwing company just thrown out of a recent african campaign result who were involved in the leave campaign, then you absolutely no cause for complaint if obama states a fact about foreign trade deals. Which the leave campaign frothed about as undemocratic interference. So make up your mind, either anyone anywhere in the world can do anything they like to topple democratic choices or they have to be prevented from influencing votes they have no business in. Farage clearly believes he has a right to interfere in foreign elections. Then moans when anyone foreign expresses an opinion or fact he doesnt like. f***ing fascist-tolerating hitler-loving hypocrite.

I hate to break it to you, but the law is already quite involved in political campaigns.

 

But they don't tell each side what claim they can/can't make - that's my point.

 

 

1. People based their vote on many reasons. You continue to deny reality because it is convenient for you to assume everyone voted for it regardless of consequences.

 

Me denying reality?! :wacko:

 

Leave *won*, that's the only reality that matters!

 

But they don't tell each side what claim they can/can't make - that's my point.

You must surely accept, though, that the success of a campaign whose main message - the £350m - was a massive lie is not healthy for British politics. It shows that campaigns can get tell blatant lies with impunity. This is very different from predictions which turn out not to be wholly accurate (a prediction - unless it is truly absurd - cannot, by definition, be a lie) or promises which parties are - for whatever reason - unable to keep.

You must surely accept, though, that the success of a campaign whose main message - the £350m - was a massive lie is not healthy for British politics. It shows that campaigns can get tell blatant lies with impunity. This is very different from predictions which turn out not to be wholly accurate (a prediction - unless it is truly absurd - cannot, by definition, be a lie) or promises which parties are - for whatever reason - unable to keep.

 

I don't agree the £350m was the *main* message, and since it was thoroughly debunked before the vote, neither do I believe it was crucial.

 

'Project Fear' was also very divisive - as has been said elsewhere, it would have been better to run a positive campaign.

 

Unfortunately just as 'all's fair in love & war', it seems to be in politics too...

 

I don't agree the £350m was the *main* message, and since it was thoroughly debunked before the vote, neither do I believe it was crucial.

 

'Project Fear' was also very divisive - as has been said elsewhere, it would have been better to run a positive campaign.

 

Unfortunately just as 'all's fair in love & war', it seems to be in politics too...

Post-referendum research suggested that the message was a key one for many people. Even last week when Boris Johnson repeated the lie it was clear that many people still believe it.

 

Some people did try to put across a positive message. Unfortunately, the BBC (I can't speak for other broadcasters) portrayed most of the campaign as a squabble between different factions of the Tory party and failed to report this positive messages.

Strawman?

 

No.

 

Just exposing your faulty logic. Sorry. If something is fine because it lasted a while, it stands to reason OTHER things are equally fine for lasting longer. :)

But they don't tell each side what claim they can/can't make - that's my point.

Me denying reality?! :wacko:

 

Leave *won*, that's the only reality that matters!

 

So in effect you are condoning that anything in politics is acceptable as long as you win. So dies democracy once lying is the norm. No one trusts anyone. No one believes anything. That is reality. Lose an argument and counter with " i won anyway so ya boo if i cheated nothing else matters but getting my own way".

 

Childish.

Some people did try to put across a positive message. Unfortunately, the BBC (I can't speak for other broadcasters) portrayed most of the campaign as a squabble between different factions of the Tory party and failed to report this positive messages.

 

Yes, but the main thrust of the remain campaign were a number of snappy negative soundbites that seemed to run as the lead items in the news. They had the choice not to run these but they did..

 

'There will be an immediate punishment budget soon after a decision to leave the EU'

 

'House prices will fall if you vote to leave the EU'

 

'Each UK household be £4,300 worse off if the UK leaves the EU'

 

That last one in particular has no more basis in fact than the £350 million claim and should never have been used IMO.

Yes, but the main thrust of the remain campaign were a number of snappy negative soundbites that seemed to run as the lead items in the news. They had the choice not to run these but they did..

 

'There will be an immediate punishment budget soon after a decision to leave the EU'

 

'House prices will fall if you vote to leave the EU'

 

'Each UK household be £4,300 worse off if the UK leaves the EU'

 

That last one in particular has no more basis in fact than the £350 million claim and should never have been used IMO.

You mean like this official campaign video?

 

https://youtu.be/_uU6Tk5g_Rw

 

Those items you are quoting came at the end of the campaign and were, lets be honest, a desperate attempt by cameron and osbourne to both keep their job and try and counter the fantasy items of the leave campaign.

 

House price falling? Err yes, in London, and expected around the country. That one wasnt incorrect, most likely, it just encoursged those who need lower house prices to vote leave!

 

Like the NHS claim of 350m a week it remains to be seen once we leave whether each household is or isnt 4300 worse off. Most of us are already fairly worse off to the tune of 10% drop in sterling and 1 or 2% a year inflation, and brexit has yet to happen. Over the course of a year, thats certainly in the hundreds already. Given Morticia's latest suggestion that no deal - which the gov have made no preps for - is stil better than a bad deal, no- one would be wise to make any predictions what the average household will be doing following brexit.

Yes, but the main thrust of the remain campaign were a number of snappy negative soundbites that seemed to run as the lead items in the news. They had the choice not to run these but they did..

 

'There will be an immediate punishment budget soon after a decision to leave the EU'

 

'House prices will fall if you vote to leave the EU'

 

'Each UK household be £4,300 worse off if the UK leaves the EU'

 

That last one in particular has no more basis in fact than the £350 million claim and should never have been used IMO.

You miss the point. Those claims generally came from Tories. Any attempts by members of other parties to be more positive were just ignored.

So in effect you are condoning that anything in politics is acceptable as long as you win. So dies democracy once lying is the norm. No one trusts anyone. No one believes anything. That is reality. Lose an argument and counter with " i won anyway so ya boo if i cheated nothing else matters but getting my own way".

 

Childish.

 

You talk as if deception in political campaigns didn't exist before the Brexit referendum. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not saying it's right, but I am realistic - 'The end justifies the means' has operated in politics for as long as I can remember, it certainly wasn't invented by Leavers!

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