You are right that we wouldn't have ended our opposition to the EU, but I would not have dismissed the result as illegitimate simply because of the way the campaign was fought - the issue is far bigger than that.

Have you heard of the word 'gerrymandering'?

Only half of that last sentence is correct.

 

I hate the EU no matter what.

 

well we won nananananan so there

I hate the EU no matter what.

 

well we won nananananan so there

 

Now you are just taking the p1ss.

You are right that we wouldn't have ended our opposition to the EU, but I would not have dismissed the result as illegitimate simply because of the way the campaign was fought - the issue is far bigger than that.

Have you heard of the word 'gerrymandering'?

Only half of that last sentence is correct.

 

Oh reaaaallllly?

 

Nigel Farage was throwin a wobbly when he heard Remain had won by 51% lol.

 

When a campain is won through lies, Nazi posters and tipped over the line by racists, well, it is not to be respected, especially a yeeny tiny razorthin majority.

Also, we won so nanananaanananan.

Awkward...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03...knew-what-we-w/

Awkward...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03...knew-what-we-w/

 

Ouch! The truth hurts....

 

:D

That man is awful.

 

Cult following.

You do actually realise that er, he's not a real person...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pie

 

Tom Walker 'plays' him.

Awkward...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03...knew-what-we-w/

 

All that says to me, is that politicians were far more aware of the implications of joining than the general public were. I've not heard any current Leave voters, who voted to endorse our membership back then, say they were made fully aware of the implications at the time.

I hate the EU no matter what.

 

I don't 'hate' the EU - I simply don't trust it.

 

Why, you ask?

 

Well, I see it as a huge out of control juggernaut, with inadequate brakes (e.g. insufficient democratic accountability).

 

When it was founded, I doubt anyone believed it would get as big as it has become, so the original checks & balances became unable to cope, and in having to be rewritten on the fly, some answerability was inevitably lost.

 

When the EU was founded large parts of the continent were living under dictatorships. The EU has done a lot to end that. Isn't that a good thing?

When the EU was founded large parts of the continent were living under dictatorships. The EU has done a lot to end that. Isn't that a good thing?

 

It's certainly a good thing that the communist dictatorships have gone, but I don't recall the EU having a significant role in that? :unsure:

 

ISTM it was more down to Gorbachov's glasnost/perestroika, the US's 'Star Wars' project driving the soviet bloc to near bankruptcy in trying to compete, and the not inconsiderable efforts of the populations of the oppressed countries themselves.

The EU Acquis mandate certain standards that countries wanting to join the EU must meet. Including some very important democratic principles. Every one of these former eastern bloc nations have had meeting these Acquis in mind when coming out of communism. They are functioning democracies today literally because of the EU. I mean there's not a more clear cause and effect relationship in international politics over the past 50 years.

The EU Acquis mandate certain standards that countries wanting to join the EU must meet. Including some very important democratic principles. Every one of these former eastern bloc nations have had meeting these Acquis in mind when coming out of communism. They are functioning democracies today literally because of the EU. I mean there's not a more clear cause and effect relationship in international politics over the past 50 years.

 

I think we are talking at cross purposes here.

 

The EU gave something for the former soviet bloc countries to aim at *after* they were free, but Suedehead seemed to be suggesting that the EU had a significant role in the freeing process. :unsure:

It's certainly a good thing that the communist dictatorships have gone, but I don't recall the EU having a significant role in that? :unsure:

 

ISTM it was more down to Gorbachov's glasnost/perestroika, the US's 'Star Wars' project driving the soviet bloc to near bankruptcy in trying to compete, and the not inconsiderable efforts of the populations of the oppressed countries themselves.

Was the omission of the right-wing dictatorships in Spain, Greece and Portugal deliberate or accidental?

 

EU membership gave these countries (and those in Eastern Europe) something to aspire to. The (rather pathetic) attempted coup in Spain on the eve of their accession was seen by the military as their last opportunity to grab power. I happen to be proud that the UK is a member of an organisation that has helped so many countries to become functioning democracies. It's a shame so many people seem to think that is worthless.

Going off at a complete tangent, have you seen the 'Moral Alignment' test in The Lounge?

 

http://www.buzzjack.com/forums/index.php?s...p;#entry5844631

 

I think it pegged me quite well.

All that says to me, is that politicians were far more aware of the implications of joining than the general public were. I've not heard any current Leave voters, who voted to endorse our membership back then, say they were made fully aware of the implications at the time.

 

Most of them, like you and I, weren't eligible to vote and more interested in Hong Kong Phooey.

 

As I have said before.

 

It was the older generation (who are now dead) that was in favour.

 

As I have said before.

Was the omission of the right-wing dictatorships in Spain, Greece and Portugal deliberate or accidental?

 

EU membership gave these countries (and those in Eastern Europe) something to aspire to. The (rather pathetic) attempted coup in Spain on the eve of their accession was seen by the military as their last opportunity to grab power. I happen to be proud that the UK is a member of an organisation that has helped so many countries to become functioning democracies. It's a shame so many people seem to think that is worthless.

 

 

Only blinkered people would think it was worthless. Blinkered with anxieties about juggernauts apparently, and unable to give any credit whatsoever, however much deserved. Thanks for the sanity, Simon!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2...emocracy-brexit

 

a much more articulate account of what I have boiled down to my 2 key phrases for Brexiteers:

 

"I hate the EU no matter what" (it does to the UK, or any democratic argument put forward, or observation of factually-proven lies told etc)

 

"we won, nananannana, so there" (so let's have no more talk of democracy, blame on us, and let's all get together blaming anyone who doesn't agree right now so we can blame when it goes wrong - which is why we are making our future excuses now, because we know it's going to go wrong and don't want the blame)

 

Cue: Lefty Guardian comments and repeats of the 2 key phrases, more or less....