Really don't see what's so funny about the cost of living crisis frankly mate.

 

There are so many open goals right now that Labour should be exploiting but instead we've got 'unity candidate' Captain Keir at the ships helm throwing the engineers off. Can and will only end in disaster but I'm at peace with it now anyway.

The same way the centre-left of the Party had little to no control of the Party during 2016-2019. Backbenchers can be critical but as has always been my point about Corbyn, how can you expect a man not to have many enemies in the Labour Party when he has spent his entire political career discrediting anything Blair/Brown did, voting against the whip at most opportunities!? It's hard to cry wolf when you have spent your entire political career discrediting most things an elected Government have done.

As Suedehead put it much better than myself, how can you expect the electorate to vote for you when your own Party won't.

 

I don't want a Labour politician running with a £15 minimum wage tag line, because outside of a socialist fantasy, it's not going to cut with the electorate and will get torn to pieces. A one way ticket to losing a general election and causing more damage than the good it sets out to do. I'm all for policies which are thought out, but they're not. I want a leader who has leadership qualities and isn't the self prophesied socialist messiah.

Politicians lie, welcome to.. politics? Doesn't matter what a politicians ideology is they lie and bend the truth :lol:

 

I understand you don’t like JC but for me it’s nothing to do with him it’s his ideology and policies I care about. With regard to not getting support from his party, that’s not really his fault, his party would NEVER have supported him and continued to sabotage him. The would rather a Tory government than a Labour one under the left.

 

With regards to JCs time on the back benches - see the hundreds of times he DID support them too!

 

About the minimum wage argument, why is it always fine for ceos of non essential businesses to get millions in bonuses and yet higher wages for the poor are looked down at because the economics don’t work 😳 it’s been the same story for the last 40 years!

 

Really don't see what's so funny about the cost of living crisis frankly mate.

 

There are so many open goals right now that Labour should be exploiting but instead we've got 'unity candidate' Captain Keir at the ships helm throwing the engineers off. Can and will only end in disaster but I'm at peace with it now anyway.

 

Have you read the comments on the Twitter post? Or the statement? This is nothing to do with the cost of living, it's a last roll of the dice because he lost his NEC seat and is facing explusion from the Party. It's just Party politics, Starmer has gone in on the Corbynites. Everyone is forgetting the man who stoked the fire is the guy who agreed the policy

 

Giving the lowest paid a bumper pay rise isn't going to solve the cost of living crisis. Why stop at £15 an hour, why not make it £30 an hour. Figure picked from thin air with no thought behind it. And these people want to believe the general population trust them to run the country?! You don't need the Tories or the media to tell you they're a bad idea as everyone can see it is with a bit of thought past the headline.

Re: £15/hr. I'm not massively in favour of it myself - although the argument about inflation is laughable because it's hit 3% and will definitely go higher. Plus the rate that house prices have increased would definitely suggest we should be well above £30000 as a median salary, actually probably nearer £40000.

 

But the point is - it was adopted as policy through the democracy of the party conference.

 

Just like the second referendum was, just like the renewal of Trident was - both of which were massively unfavourable to the Labour leadership at the time but unlike this current lot of absolute MELTS they respected democracy.

 

 

I don't have a specific number in mind for the correct minimum wage but when Britain is having a cost-of-living crisis, then it is going to hit those on low incomes first and hardest. And the best way of mitigating that pain that is to raise minimum wages.

 

If it leads to further inflation (and it will, but not by as much as the minimum wage is raised, because higher earners won't see that kind of wage increase), then that hits everybody, but disproportionately those with savings and assets. So the rich shoulder the cost of a minimum wage increase, but since they have the wealth to weather the storm much better than the poor anyway, that's a sacrifice I'm perfectly fine. We're talking about a country with stark generational inequality and huge disparities in assets here - gapclosers would be better if they didn't happen in a time of economic strife but would be quite welcome all the same.

 

Broadly agree with these posts. The good thing about the number is that it's a tagline to be pushed for, it's hardly a completely out there number, it's not too far off what the minimum wage should be if it had kept up with inflation and we hadn't had decades of poor wage rises, that is the only reason why it looks slightly radical now and is all the more reason to shift the balance in favour, as Steve says, of the workers for once - the economics have been shifting towards the capitalists for years and now they call what would be reasonable policies 30 years ago 'mad' and their proponents 'not playing serious politics'.

 

And having it as a policy for an opposition party is seriously the way to actually provide an alternative. Or have we forgotten how quickly the austerity consensus collapsed after 2015 and now the government which has been in power in the entire interim period would be very careful about any return to that?

 

Also, yes, democracy of the party conference should hold water, Labour is not an oligarchy nor should it aspire to be - it seems it, like other conference proposals has been waved through but with the leadership free to ignore it for policy, and I wonder which one they'll do...

After all the doom and gloom about £15 an hour, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Starmer's speech yesterday, including an ex-BB contestant heckling during the speech!

 

I thought the speech and vision was pretty good on the whole. I totally understand that some people may be less infused, but I thought it was a clear plan and does outline the switch to trying to beat the Tories at their own games. Good change shouldn't be defined by ideology alone, it should be at the forefront of any Party governing the country. Interesting to see how it translates on the wider scale to the electorate over the coming months and years before the next GE.

From the bits I've seen, it seems like it was a fair speech. It's a little hard for him to feel genuine though, some bits it's there, when he starts ad-libbing, but he does come across a bit tight at times. He needs to get more comfortable for an election trail.

From the bits I've seen, it seems like it was a fair speech. It's a little hard for him to feel genuine though, some bits it's there, when he starts ad-libbing, but he does come across a bit tight at times. He needs to get more comfortable for an election trail.

 

I think he is so polished as a speaker from his time at the CPS that is is hard for him to always get the right tone and come across less corporate. That's why I suspect they brought his parents and others in to the speech in an attempt to get some empathy/sympathy in to the direction. Still early days in terms of a 'post-covid' reality, but positive signs. Will see if it starts to have any effect on the wider electorate over the coming weeks and months.

I didn't see it but I saw Lewis Goodall's analysis which seemed to suggest that although it was a decent delivery it was too long, meandering and short on specifics. I expect we're back to the austerity-lite, diet right wing populism and fairly vanilla policies lacking a strong coherent vision, that will promise little and ultimately deliver very little change for most ppl, and still lose convincingly to the Tories. To say I am despondent about the future is a gargantuan understatement.

I don't have a specific number in mind for the correct minimum wage but when Britain is having a cost-of-living crisis, then it is going to hit those on low incomes first and hardest. And the best way of mitigating that pain that is to raise minimum wages.

 

If it leads to further inflation (and it will, but not by as much as the minimum wage is raised, because higher earners won't see that kind of wage increase), then that hits everybody, but disproportionately those with savings and assets. So the rich shoulder the cost of a minimum wage increase, but since they have the wealth to weather the storm much better than the poor anyway, that's a sacrifice I'm perfectly fine. We're talking about a country with stark generational inequality and huge disparities in assets here - gapclosers would be better if they didn't happen in a time of economic strife but would be quite welcome all the same.

 

Companies are going to have to start raising wages to retain people soon.

 

The issue has been decades of the vast majority of low-skilled jobs being slapped bang on minimum wage because an over-supply of Labour meant they could do that just fine for the past decade or so. That over-supply of Labour is diminishing fast. Although furlough finally ending is likely to change that landscape, probably why the government need to end it now and throw the million or so people who are still on it into the labour supply pool.

 

Since Covid many of the industries have raised wages to retain people, but many haven't - unsurprisingly at least around here it's the companies and industries that haven't upped staff pay that are haemorrhaging staff to companies that have upped pay often in entirely different industries, raising minimum wage is not going to fix this problem - as the biggest players are going to be able to raise wages again as long as there is a staff shortage. I know loads of people who've left what would have once been highly respectable and still are very necessary jobs on a good wage to get a few quid an hour more at jobs that would have once been considered poor jobs.

I thought it was a good speech in places but as DB said it a bit long and sprawling about without a clear concise message. It did sound like a speech from the former leader of the Crown Prosecution Service rather than Prime Minister in waiting. I did think the policy about mental health hubs was brilliant though and really hit home to what might connect with people out side conference.

 

I just don’t know why they can’t unite as a party and the conference as a whole will be remembered for infighting instead of doing what he promised during his leaderdship bid by uniting them.

Companies are going to have to start raising wages to retain people soon.

 

The issue has been decades of the vast majority of low-skilled jobs being slapped bang on minimum wage because an over-supply of Labour meant they could do that just fine for the past decade or so. That over-supply of Labour is diminishing fast. Although furlough finally ending is likely to change that landscape, probably why the government need to end it now and throw the million or so people who are still on it into the labour supply pool.

 

Since Covid many of the industries have raised wages to retain people, but many haven't - unsurprisingly at least around here it's the companies and industries that haven't upped staff pay that are haemorrhaging staff to companies that have upped pay often in entirely different industries, raising minimum wage is not going to fix this problem - as the biggest players are going to be able to raise wages again as long as there is a staff shortage. I know loads of people who've left what would have once been highly respectable and still are very necessary jobs on a good wage to get a few quid an hour more at jobs that would have once been considered poor jobs.

 

Brexit created a massive short term Labour shortage. For lots of roles (not just HGV drivers) we just don't have the specialism in the country. So employers have to pay more to retain the Talent and attract new Talent. This is not a bad thing, but it creates a ripple through the job market and is something that is not easily solved. Companies that have been underpaying their staff desevre to lose their employees, bit not everything about work is about reumeration either e.g. holidays, flexible working etc. - the massive problem we have though, is the companies either absorb the extra costs or pass them on to us the consumers. Not too bad if you're raking in the money, but if you're not, then it's tough.. higher chances of redundancies elsewhere.

 

Likewise some of the bigger companies are taking advantage of the situation (Amazon a massive example) and you're seeing people change careers to work at Amazon on £40k a year from skilled careers. So yes it means some workers are getting better salaries which of course is great, but unless the rest of the job market moves at the same pace then we're in a bad place in 3-5 years.

 

I thought it was a good speech in places but as DB said it a bit long and sprawling about without a clear concise message. It did sound like a speech from the former leader of the Crown Prosecution Service rather than Prime Minister in waiting. I did think the policy about mental health hubs was brilliant though and really hit home to what might connect with people out side conference.

 

I just don’t know why they can’t unite as a party and the conference as a whole will be remembered for infighting instead of doing what he promised during his leaderdship bid by uniting them.

 

The Party is too divided imo, not sure it can ever fully reunite, it doesn't matter who is Leader. You might get someone like Burnham who could do a better job, but I still think he would struggle at times trying to balance the factions. I think what a load of people don't like from the Corbynista side is how Starmer has allowed himself to be influenced by Blairites. Again, I don't think that is a bad thing, I think there is a a compelling argument made by many, that Labour is only electable if it embraces that economically centre-right-to-soft-left political space, that the party should adapt to fit what it thinks will win election. Totally get there are people who differ from that opinion who want mass change, and that's partly where the the election of Corbyn came from and of which there is support for in the electorate, but not enough to win a general election in the current system.

Labour to my mind has one gigantic problem. It doesn’t understand it’s electorate. This is seen mainly in three strands.

 

Firstly - It belittles and patronises And takes advantage of Scottish voters when a fairly big percentage of what’s left of their support is pro-Indy. Also the part of the electorate most favourable to them, are also pro-Indy. At this point they’re burning so many bridges their best bet is to wait for independence and hope that the SNP splinters and they pick up the social democratic wing of the party. However, it’s more likely the splinters coming off the SNP will be more like Alba. Labour Are dead North of the wall for I’d say at least the next decade to 15 years.

 

Second and third are linked in that they are opposing forces. They’re focusing on trying to claw back lost ground in the red wall by going after the racists (basically) but in doing so, they Push the multicultural city voters away from them. Until they can square that circle, they’re f***ed.

Tony Blair will say a £15 minimum wage isn’t plausible while not paying over £300,000 in stamp duty.

 

On the British centre this is called ‘serious politics’. It’s a spell we MUST break this decade.

This should probably go in the Opinion Polls thread but as it fits into the recent conference narrative (i.e. let's attack and belittle anyone that supported Labour in 2019 because 'where else will they go?') it'll fit neatly here:

 

@1444301885209518080

Let’s hope that comes true in a GE when it comes, I’m confident the green votes will go red on any future Election Day as FPTP focuses minds usually!

Edited October 3, 20213 yr by steve201

Well known anti-Semite Jeremy Corbyn was at the remembrance service for the battle of cable street this weekend!

Anyone else watch the Blair/Brown documentary on BBC (first of a 5 part series?) Although of course many can find reasons to dislike Blair because of Iraq etc it did make me feel sad that when the Tories are causing untold damage and division we have Keir Starmer leading the charge with no energy, vision or hope whatsoever. :(

Yeh watching it now, loves these types of documentaries, it’s like the bbc is reminding Labour how to win power lol.

 

There was a similar documentary in the late 90s called the Wilderness Years which is on you tube if your interested. It focused more on the party whereas this was about Brown and Blair. Much more of a Brownite personally!

Brown seemed to (and still does based on his recent speeches/articles re Universal Credit cut) care a lot about the poor. Blair seemed to want to win and although he did (and by huge numbers) his ideology was less sound.

Yeh exactly he didn’t have any real ideology apart from falling into the job as he was really smart. Mandelson turns me thinks he’s master of the universe still. Starmer speech last week tried to do a Blair!