Exactly right it's complicated - not all SF voters want a United Ireland!

My point was that you cannot draw direct conclusions about support for independence other than to say opinion is very much divided.

 

Compromise would be to allow a fair and legal referendum on independence with a supermajority required to change the status quo - not much to ask.

 

But that's risky - if the required level was say 60%, and the vote ended up at 59.9%, then you's have almost 3/5ths of voters extremely pissed off...

But that's risky - if the required level was say 60%, and the vote ended up at 59.9%, then you's have almost 3/5ths of voters extremely pissed off...

It's hardly uncommon for more than a simple majority to be required to change the status quo on a significant matter. After all, certain golf clubs required a two-thirds majority just to admit women as members.

But that's risky - if the required level was say 60%, and the vote ended up at 59.9%, then you's have almost 3/5ths of voters extremely pissed off...

 

Thrn have another vote in a few years.

 

Referendums aee awful ways of governing complex or social issues anyway, especially with the right wing brainwashing in UK

 

It's hardly uncommon for more than a simple majority to be required to change the status quo on a significant matter. After all, certain golf clubs required a two-thirds majority just to admit women as members.

 

That's hardly comparable - the electorate of such clubs is 100% male!

 

Thrn have another vote in a few years.

 

Referendums aee awful ways of governing complex or social issues anyway, especially with the right wing brainwashing in UK

 

Change the record! People vote Tory because they expect to be financially better off with them in gov't - not because of 'brainwashing'!

 

 

 

Right wing brainwashing affects more than just people shooting themselves and the country in the foot by voting for that vile bag of rich fat cats.

 

It also affects referendums, public opinion, etc.

 

A referendum, i.e a vote, i not the be and end of. If you don't get 60x alright, tey again some other time. Maybe you'll get it. Have a ten year mandatory gap at least between them. Civil rights not up for discussion.

That's hardly comparable - the electorate of such clubs is 100% male!

Change the record! People vote Tory because they expect to be financially better off with them in gov't - not because of 'brainwashing'!

Do you have any qualifications in missing the point? The whole point is that it is perfectly reasonable to have a threshold for, for example, a vote on a region declaring independence if similar rules apply to the running of a golf club. Perhaps I should have used the example of this government's changes to the rules on strike ballots instead.

Right wing brainwashing affects more than just people shooting themselves and the country in the foot by voting for that vile bag of rich fat cats.

 

It also affects referendums, public opinion, etc.

 

A referendum, i.e a vote, i not the be and end of. If you don't get 60x alright, tey again some other time. Maybe you'll get it. Have a ten year mandatory gap at least between them. Civil rights not up for discussion.

 

What id the difference between right-wing 'brainwashing', and left-wing 'campaigning', other than the verb used? Nobody is *forced* to read the Mail, after all...

 

I'm glad you agree with me about the gap between referenda though - I'd be quite happy to wait until 2026 for another one on the EU.

 

Do you have any qualifications in missing the point? The whole point is that it is perfectly reasonable to have a threshold for, for example, a vote on a region declaring independence if similar rules apply to the running of a golf club. Perhaps I should have used the example of this government's changes to the rules on strike ballots instead.

 

It might have been a more relevant example.

Edited December 23, 20177 yr by vidsanta

What id the difference between right-wing 'brainwashing', and left-wing 'campaigning', other than the verb used? Nobody is *forced* to read the Mail, after all...

 

I'm glad you agree with me about the gap between referenda though - I'd be quite happy to wait until 2026 for another one on the EU.

It might have been a more relevant example.

Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and re-education) is a non-scientific concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques. Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject’s ability to think critically or independently,[1] to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject’s mind,[2] as well as to change their attitudes, values, and beliefs.

 

campaigning - the campaign of a candidate to be elected

 

One is about control by devious methods including lying, one is about persuading by argument.

 

Some modern politicians like to blur the distinction, aided and abetted by newspapers using the former

That's hardly comparable - the electorate of such clubs is 100% male!

Change the record! People vote Tory because they expect to be financially better off with them in gov't - not because of 'brainwashing'!

 

They might** (not guaranteed) be richer but this involves destroying the social bonds of society leading to increased crime so overall your life could be actually worse!

Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and re-education) is a non-scientific concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques. Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject’s ability to think critically or independently,[1] to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject’s mind,[2] as well as to change their attitudes, values, and beliefs.

 

campaigning - the campaign of a candidate to be elected

 

One is about control by devious methods including lying, one is about persuading by argument.

 

Some modern politicians like to blur the distinction, aided and abetted by newspapers using the former

 

The above may be a good summation, but you omit one important factor - propaganda is only *really* effective when ALL sources of info are controlled by one body - normally a totalitarian government. Surely the very fact that you are able to recognise 'propaganda', is in itself proof of it's ineffectiveness?

 

 

They might** (not guaranteed) be richer but this involves destroying the social bonds of society leading to increased crime so overall your life could be actually worse!

 

Surely you're not suggesting the only alternatives are : either criminals taking money from you, or the government doing so? :unsure:

At least you can vote the government out if they don't look after your taxes correctly whereas you can do nithjng about big corporations who provide a terrible service offering you say electric/gas/water.

 

 

The above may be a good summation, but you omit one important factor - propaganda is only *really* effective when ALL sources of info are controlled by one body - normally a totalitarian government. Surely the very fact that you are able to recognise 'propaganda', is in itself proof of it's ineffectiveness?

 

I am certainly able to recognise propaganda because I am cynical and intelligent.

 

Most people, as proven by human history of thousands of years, aren't. Gullibility and stupidity are the main reasons propaganda continues to work on a daily basis. One source is not required. All you need is people willing to believe lies told by one person. The proven lies told by Trump since taking office is approaching 1000, yet people still hold on to their belief. They are therefore gullible and/or stupid. You only have to look around the world to see wars and misery and hatred and lies told and fools willing to believe them.

 

Your supposition has absolutely nothing to back it up, and mine has centuries of evidence.

At least you can vote the government out if they don't look after your taxes correctly whereas you can do nithjng about big corporations who provide a terrible service offering you say electric/gas/water.

 

Except change suppliers. :rolleyes:

 

I am certainly able to recognise propaganda because I am cynical and intelligent.

 

Most people, as proven by human history of thousands of years, aren't. Gullibility and stupidity are the main reasons propaganda continues to work on a daily basis. One source is not required. All you need is people willing to believe lies told by one person. The proven lies told by Trump since taking office is approaching 1000, yet people still hold on to their belief. They are therefore gullible and/or stupid. You only have to look around the world to see wars and misery and hatred and lies told and fools willing to believe them.

 

Your supposition has absolutely nothing to back it up, and mine has centuries of evidence.

 

But who taught you what you believe in - and how can you prove it is any less propaganda than someone else's?

Changing the supplier when the power comes from the same factories or the water comes from the same resevoirs/dams? It's just a way for corporations to make big money. And god love older or less intelligent people who are unable to find the cheaper companies .... survival of the fittest indeed!

Have you tried to change water suppliers?

 

In the NW I have a choice of United Utilities, United Utilities or..... United Utilities.

Exactly it's a monopoly which the government should take over and distribute on behalf of the people!

I don’t understand the point of privatisation of water in England and Wales. Same with rail actually. Both are effective monopolies and were told privatisation is necessary because competition is good. Sure it works for airlines but transportation and water are effectively legal monopolies.

I am certainly able to recognise propaganda because I am cynical and intelligent.

 

Most people, as proven by human history of thousands of years, aren't. Gullibility and stupidity are the main reasons propaganda continues to work on a daily basis. One source is not required. All you need is people willing to believe lies told by one person. The proven lies told by Trump since taking office is approaching 1000, yet people still hold on to their belief. They are therefore gullible and/or stupid. You only have to look around the world to see wars and misery and hatred and lies told and fools willing to believe them.

 

Your supposition has absolutely nothing to back it up, and mine has centuries of evidence.

Only 1,000? You haven't been paying attention :lol:

I don’t understand the point of privatisation of water in England and Wales. Same with rail actually. Both are effective monopolies and were told privatisation is necessary because competition is good. Sure it works for airlines but transportation and water are effectively legal monopolies.

 

It's because it makes the owners filthy rich so hierarchy is good for EVRRYTHING!