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EU/Brexit Discussion Thread II

Brett-Butler
in News and Politics

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I checked the Guardian's website for their take on the following, but curiously, there's nothing about there... :rolleyes:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-53...sh-Britain.html

 

Brexit win for Britain as Brussels cancels controversial plan to put punishment clause in the transition deal after a backlash from 12 EU countries

 

EU negotiator Michel Barnier revealed a plan for a punishment clause last week

It triggered a major row both in the UK and across other EU member states

Draft transition agreement no longer includes the measure after it was dropped

 

So Michel Barnier got big-headed and the rest of the EU made sure that one clause they hadn't agreed to was removed. Sounds like a good democratic decision, democracy in action (remember the principle of the EU is all must agree, something you Brexiters always conveniently forget - that the UK isn't "forced" to do anything. We have done everything with UK agreement, not against).

 

That said, I come back to the UK position: You don't sign anything off with the intention of ignoring what you have just signed, so it becomes just a hypothetical argument, or else the Tory ministers are just intending to ignore what is agreed, get us chucked out, or spend years wrangling about it in EU courts, just so they can present an "agreement" to the public in order to make sure we leave but with no intention of adhering to it. As I say, then don't agree, present a totally Hard Brexit to the UK voters and see what the response is as we leave with no agreement or trade with the EU......

 

Because that IS NOT what was promised in the referendum by every Brexit campaigner.

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With 80% youth vote for, it won't be 40 years.

 

How anti-democratic.

So you therefore accept that we should have had a chance to vote on Brexit long before 2016, then?

 

 

Force a shitty vote, continue with it after an MP dies due to over the top press campaigning, let's face it, then force us to leave based on a non-binding result of 52 bloody %. And 2 nations.
You can't cancel a referendum just because a loony kills someone - that would set an absurd precedent.

 

 

 

 

I will peruse them later.

 

If you insist on demanding Remainers prove their case, just try googling yourself first
That just brings up my FB page, and old Google Groups stuff. ;)

 

1. Then you ARE in favour of giving everyone a straight choice between accepting the final result or staying as we are? If not, I repeat, you don't believe in democracy cos you are frit of losing.

 

2. If there are at least as many anti-EU people then you wont object to testing that in a final referendum,

 

1. We've already made the *democratic* decision to Leave - that could only be reversed, in a form acceptable to the electorate, by another referendum asking exactly the same question, and getting the opposite result. Therefore, the only question to be resolved is whether we prefer a Soft or Hard Brexit.

 

2. see 1.

We haven't/ A grand change needs a grand majority and support of a plurality of nations. The decision, to anyone other than a Tory desperate tp keep their [arty together, or people just willing to stick their fingers in their ears and go, lalalalalalalalalalalawewonlalalalalala, has not been made.
So you therefore accept that we should have had a chance to vote on Brexit long before 2016, then?

You can't cancel a referendum just because a loony kills someone - that would set an absurd precedent.

I will peruse them later.

 

That just brings up my FB page, and old Google Groups stuff. ;)

1. We've already made the *democratic* decision to Leave - that could only be reversed, in a form acceptable to the electorate, by another referendum asking exactly the same question, and getting the opposite result. Therefore, the only question to be resolved is whether we prefer a Soft or Hard Brexit.

 

2. see 1.

 

I personally dont have a problem with the electorate being asked every 10 years if they wish to remain/join the EU. ONCE they have made it clear they either accept or reject the final deal. That means the option to remain in the EU. As I say, what are you frightened of? That the public will have changed it's mind once faced with actual facts rather than vague lies and promises? Of course that's what you're frightened of.....

 

Not democracy.

 

For my part, if that was the option, and the voters made it clear they still wanted to leave once they have seen the final deal then I would accept the result until a generation had passed and they have the choice to decide for themselves once the old people are gone. Surely you feel the same? I mean, by then you will be either very old or dead so what you care? You cant moan about not having had a say for 25 years (though you claim it's 40) and then moan about everyone not having the same choice when they don't agree with the result. My problem with your arguments is you seem to think the referendum is a forever vote based on hard facts, when it wasn't at all.

 

Therefore the only option is not at all between a Hard or Soft Brexit because there wont be a soft Brexit. The choice will be Hard Brexit with an agreement (presumably) or Hard Brexit with no agreement - that IS NOT WHAT WAS PROMISED BY BREXITEERS. And no we dont give a stuff that the choice was a moronically simple yes or no. WE WEREN'T GIVEN OPTIONS WE WERE GIVEN LIES.

 

What part of getting what you voted for, based on campaign lies, don't you understand? If they had been honest, said everything that is going to happen and the result was still Leave then we wouldn't be having this discussion which will never end regardless of the result. They lied. You don't care that they lied because you got the result you wanted. We care that they lied through their nasty little teeth about it and Johnson the Boob is still trying to tell more lies when the government's own research shows it is all lies.

 

 

I personally dont have a problem with the electorate being asked every 10 years if they wish to remain/join the EU. ONCE they have made it clear they either accept or reject the final deal. That means the option to remain in the EU. As I say, what are you frightened of? That the public will have changed it's mind once faced with actual facts rather than vague lies and promises? Of course that's what you're frightened of.....

 

Not democracy.

 

Remaining in the EU is what really frightens me!

 

For my part, if that was the option, and the voters made it clear they still wanted to leave once they have seen the final deal then I would accept the result until a generation had passed and they have the choice to decide for themselves once the old people are gone. Surely you feel the same? I mean, by then you will be either very old or dead so what you care? You cant moan about not having had a say for 25 years (though you claim it's 40) and then moan about everyone not having the same choice when they don't agree with the result. My problem with your arguments is you seem to think the referendum is a forever vote based on hard facts, when it wasn't at all.
Ever heard the expression 'all's fair in love & war'? :teresa:

 

Therefore the only option is not at all between a Hard or Soft Brexit because there wont be a soft Brexit. The choice will be Hard Brexit with an agreement (presumably) or Hard Brexit with no agreement

 

For me, anything less than a withdrawal with no agreement, is a soft Brexit.

 

What part of getting what you voted for, based on campaign lies, don't you understand? If they had been honest, said everything that is going to happen and the result was still Leave then we wouldn't be having this discussion which will never end regardless of the result. They lied. You don't care that they lied because you got the result you wanted.

 

I've never denied that. What annoys me is the holier-than-thou self-delusion of many Remainers - there was much scaremongering, e.g.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/accurate-pr...ned-out-so-far/

So you are frightened of a democratic vote on real terms.

 

Right.

 

This time, PHULEASE make it binding and with safeguards so we don't get into this mess AGAIN.

So you are frightened of a democratic vote on real terms.

 

Right.

 

This time, PHULEASE make it binding and with safeguards so we don't get into this mess AGAIN.

 

Fine, I'll just get elected to parliament, work my way up to PM, and organise another referendum - simples... :P

I don’t get why brexiteers are so keen to talk about a second referendum being against democracy and blah blah blah when this mess is because they didn’t shut up for 40 years about overturning the result of a referendum they didn’t like the answer to. Hypocrisy much?
Remaining in the EU is what really frightens me!

 

Ever heard the expression 'all's fair in love & war'? :teresa:

For me, anything less than a withdrawal with no agreement, is a soft Brexit.

I've never denied that. What annoys me is the holier-than-thou self-delusion of many Remainers - there was much scaremongering, e.g.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/accurate-pr...ned-out-so-far/

There is no point in having campaigns at all if we just let anyone tell a pack of lies and get away with it. campaigns should be about informing the electorate; unfortunately, each successive campaign seems to get steadily further from this ideal.

For me, anything less than a withdrawal with no agreement, is a soft Brexit.

What exactly would you like to see happen on the day we leave?

I don’t get why brexiteers are so keen to talk about a second referendum being against democracy and blah blah blah when this mess is because they didn’t shut up for 40 years about overturning the result of a referendum they didn’t like the answer to. Hypocrisy much?

 

Not really, because what we ended up with, was far different from what we signed up for.

 

Wouldn't you be upset if, say, an employment contract you'd signed up for in good faith, was repeated amended without you being consulted?

 

Perhaps that's not such a good example though, as at least you could easily walk away from an employer who acted in such a way.

 

What exactly would you like to see happen on the day we leave?

 

The champagne be opened? ;)

The champagne be opened? ;)

 

Only 405 days to go until the UK leaves the EU, can't wait for Brexit day!

Only 405 days to go until the UK leaves the EU, can't wait for Brexit day!

 

I just wish I could convince the Europhiles here that my reasons for voting Leave are sincere, not 'Daily Mail brainwashing'.

Not really, because what we ended up with, was far different from what we signed up for.

 

Wouldn't you be upset if, say, an employment contract you'd signed up for in good faith, was repeated amended without you being consulted?

 

Perhaps that's not such a good example though, as at least you could easily walk away from an employer who acted in such a way.

The champagne be opened? ;)

 

But what did people actually vote for this time??

 

A vague LEAVE option after the campaign PROMISED MANY DIFFERENT FORMS OF IT!!! Again, google their promises!! AND THEIR LIES!! t will be VERY different to what they proised.

 

Utter hypocrisy.

You've had plenty of opportunity to find sincere reasons and generally resorted to easily debunked 'facts', flippancy and changing the subject.
But what did people actually vote for this time??

 

A vague LEAVE option after the campaign PROMISED MANY DIFFERENT FORMS OF IT!!! Again, google their promises!! AND THEIR LIES!! t will be VERY different to what they proised.

 

Maybe the real answer is to consider what Leavers were voting *against*?

 

The slippery slope to irreversible political & economic union?

Adding more economically weak countries who would invariably be net recipients?

An even more diluted influence over decision-making?

A European army?

Expanded immigration from newly added countries?

You've had plenty of opportunity to find sincere reasons and generally resorted to easily debunked 'facts', flippancy and changing the subject.

 

Just because you don't accept my reasons, doesn't mean I was lying about them.

I just wish I could convince the Europhiles here that my reasons for voting Leave are sincere, not 'Daily Mail brainwashing'.

 

You're not the one that is brainwashed.

You're not the one that is brainwashed.

 

Um, the papers have had a sustained campaign against the EU for years.

 

People, such as two dumb dumbs I heard shouting on the train yesterday, saying '50 million per week (lol) for the NHS', 'leave the EU to bring back hanging' :rolleyes: , are voting based on nonsense. That is brainwashing.

 

Sorry.

 

 

Bearing in mind that the chances of Turkey joining any time soon are about the same as those of Eritrea joining, any new members will be relatively small. If joining the EU helps these countries to become mature democracies, how is that a bad thing?

 

How many times do you need to be told that a fully-fledged EU army won't happen unless all members support it? Besides, with Trump's commitment to NATO highly questionable, can't you see why countries such as the Baltic states might think it is rather a good idea?

 

Further steps towards political union can also only happen with the agreement of member states.

 

 

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