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EU/Brexit Discussion Thread II

Brett-Butler
in News and Politics

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Looks totally impractical to me.

 

only if the number of MP's fails to outnumber the loony left and especially the loony right that want a Hard Brexit against all that was promised by them in the Referendum......

 

Other than that, totally practical to opt for a Norway-style way of life, or else Norway would have buggered off years ago if they got nothing out of it. Just a thought you might want to consider.

only if the number of MP's fails to outnumber the loony left and especially the loony right that want a Hard Brexit against all that was promised by them in the Referendum......

 

But the only thing the referendum promised was that we were to leave the EU - it said nothing about our future relationship with it (yes, I know that's stating the obvious).

But the only thing the referendum promised was that we were to leave the EU - it said nothing about our future relationship with it (yes, I know that's stating the obvious).

 

We've been over this before a million times. All leading Brexiters said nothing of the sort. They lied entirely that we could stay in the Single Market and made all sorts of ludicrous promises. It's still on record if you care to go and look. We havent all suddenly undergone lobotomies. Unless you have?

 

There was nothing on the referendum about choices because there is no way they could have presented all the lying options in a format that would have produced the result it did. Remain would have won by a landslide.

 

Since you accept there was nothing on the voting slip about the sort of Brexit, then you also accept that we are still able and open to choose exactly the sort of Brexit that the people of the UK want right NOW, not 2 years ago - many of those voters are now dead and their opinion is irrelevant, and many more new voters have the right now to an opinion because it's their future at stake.

 

That is also stating the obvious.

We've been over this before a million times. All leading Brexiters said nothing of the sort. They lied entirely that we could stay in the Single Market and made all sorts of ludicrous promises. It's still on record if you care to go and look. We havent all suddenly undergone lobotomies. Unless you have?

 

There's no need to disfarage (pun intended) me. I specifically said 'referendum' rather than 'campaign' for the very reasons you state above.

 

There was nothing on the referendum about choices because there is no way they could have presented all the lying options in a format that would have produced the result it did. Remain would have won by a landslide.
ISTM the Remain camp made it very clear we couldn't stay in the Single Market etc if we voted Leave, so that rather undermines your above claim that it would have changed the result.

 

Since you accept there was nothing on the voting slip about the sort of Brexit, then you also accept that we are still able and open to choose exactly the sort of Brexit that the people of the UK want right NOW, not 2 years ago - many of those voters are now dead and their opinion is irrelevant, and many more new voters have the right now to an opinion because it's their future at stake.

 

That is also stating the obvious.

 

I voted Leave with the hope, but not with great expectation, that we could maintain a link to the Single Market - but my own vote wouldn't have changed even if a Hard Brexit was the only option.

 

The Leave campaign dismissed everything the Remain campaign said as Project Fear. They didn't tell us that didn't apply to claims about the Single Market.
There's no need to disfarage (pun intended) me. I specifically said 'referendum' rather than 'campaign' for the very reasons you state above.

 

ISTM the Remain camp made it very clear we couldn't stay in the Single Market etc if we voted Leave, so that rather undermines your above claim that it would have changed the result.

I voted Leave with the hope, but not with great expectation, that we could maintain a link to the Single Market - but my own vote wouldn't have changed even if a Hard Brexit was the only option.

 

The campaign WAS the referendum. There was no ability to vote for anything other than yes or no, no shade.

 

What Suedey said about the Remain campaign (which was largely sane and true bar the PM & Wannabe PM knobheads last-minute panic OTT "it worked in Scotland" statements). That the Lying Leavers lied about the accurate Remain statements being lies just confused people - which was the 100% intention because the lying knobheads keep trying to rewrite history and their own statements after-the-event. Piss-easy to prove with a google. Liars.

 

It would have changed the result if people were given two options: Leave everything, and Leave but stay in the Single Market a la Norway. Everything would have been very different. That's what I meant.

 

Your vote may not have changed in retrospect, but it would only have taken 2% of voters to hold a different view about what they were assured would be an easy, smooth, non-risky, non-economy-damaging, trade-bonanza all wrapped up in 2 years full-stop piece of piss had the truth been told by the lying leavers. Still lying.

 

 

 

Why was the referendum so simple over such a complex issue anyway?

 

It should have had multiple options: Remain as are, Remain, with greater integration (Euro, etc), Hard Leave, Leave But Stay in the SM, ala Norway.

 

65% total among the options - Leave combined or Remain - wins, then the option with the most votes gets the go-ahead

Judging by comments on Facebook there are some people who seem to think we aren't allowed to do any trade at all with non-EU countries. They appear to have interpreted the promise that we could do our own trade deals as meaning we cannot trade with most of the world. Of course, if that were true, that would have stopped people buying Drake records.
Arguably there should never have been a referendum on an issue so complex when there’s been decades of propaganda by one side that is, if we’re being overly generous, fake news
Arguably there should never have been a referendum on an issue so complex when there’s been decades of propaganda by one side that is, if we’re being overly generous, fake news

 

Completely agreed. We need a press commissioner to keep them in check. They have been frothing at the mouth for a chance to kick us out and give us the undiluted power of President Murdoch again.

The Leave campaign dismissed everything the Remain campaign said as Project Fear. They didn't tell us that didn't apply to claims about the Single Market.

 

But neither was anyone forced to believe either side's propaganda...

 

The campaign WAS the referendum. There was no ability to vote for anything other than yes or no, no shade.

 

Any referendum with more than two options can only lead to confusion, and probably no overall winner.

 

It would have changed the result if people were given two options: Leave everything, and Leave but stay in the Single Market a la Norway. Everything would have been very different. That's what I meant.

 

Your vote may not have changed in retrospect, but it would only have taken 2% of voters to hold a different view about what they were assured would be an easy, smooth, non-risky, non-economy-damaging, trade-bonanza all wrapped up in 2 years full-stop piece of piss had the truth been told by the lying leavers. Still lying.

From my pov, it seems like almost all Remainers are unable to understand why people would want to Leave the EU, therefore invariably ascribe negative reasons for that choice. Personally, I've always regarded Brexit as an opportunity, rather than a threat.

 

Why was the referendum so simple over such a complex issue anyway?

 

It should have had multiple options: Remain as are, Remain, with greater integration (Euro, etc), Hard Leave, Leave But Stay in the SM, ala Norway.

 

65% total among the options - Leave combined or Remain - wins, then the option with the most votes gets the go-ahead

 

In other words, divide & rule against Leavers.

 

 

Arguably there should never have been a referendum on an issue so complex when there’s been decades of propaganda by one side that is, if we’re being overly generous, fake news

 

Well, if 40 years of pro-EU propaganda by all the main political parties & a lot of the media couldn't convince enough voters that the EU is as benign as they claim to be, it's hard to imagine what could...

But neither was anyone forced to believe either side's propaganda...

Any referendum with more than two options can only lead to confusion, and probably no overall winner.

 

From my pov, it seems like almost all Remainers are unable to understand why people would want to Leave the EU, therefore invariably ascribe negative reasons for that choice. Personally, I've always regarded Brexit as an opportunity, rather than a threat.

In other words, divide & rule against Leavers.

Well, if 40 years of pro-EU propaganda by all the main political parties & a lot of the media couldn't convince enough voters that the EU is as benign as they claim to be, it's hard to imagine what could...

1. People in Nazi germany weren't forced to believe propaganda either. The airline that was shot down over Ukraine by Russian-supported troops people aren't forced to believe in Russia that it was Ukraine that shot it down - yet that is the view. Oops propaganda. It's called LYING. People, even intelligent people, believe propaganda in the absence of widespread criticism of the lies. The Remain side wasn't propaganda - Cameron and Osbourne pushed "Project Fear" towards the end, something the entire Remain campaign was accused of throughout.

 

Saying no-one is forced to believe propaganda is nonsense. That's its whole purpose and aim. You muddy Truth the extent that people are unable to know what to believe and job done. That you call Facts "propaganda" and are unable to state or accept facts as facts shows you are perfectly happy with propaganda as a way of life when it suits your views.

 

2. What I said.

 

3. We ascribe negative reasons to Leaving because there are negative reasons. See 1.

 

4. There hasnt been 40 years of pro-EU propaganda, there has been 40 years of understated "getting on with the job" facts versus 30 years of Front-Page Rag lies on a daily basis. See 1 and your not-subtle conversion of facts into propaganda.

 

 

 

 

1. People in Nazi germany weren't forced to believe propaganda either. The airline that was shot down over Ukraine by Russian-supported troops people aren't forced to believe in Russia that it was Ukraine that shot it down - yet that is the view. Oops propaganda. It's called LYING. People, even intelligent people, believe propaganda in the absence of widespread criticism of the lies. The Remain side wasn't propaganda - Cameron and Osbourne pushed "Project Fear" towards the end, something the entire Remain campaign was accused of throughout.

 

Saying no-one is forced to believe propaganda is nonsense. That's its whole purpose and aim. You muddy Truth the extent that people are unable to know what to believe and job done. That you call Facts "propaganda" and are unable to state or accept facts as facts shows you are perfectly happy with propaganda as a way of life when it suits your views.

 

2. What I said.

 

3. We ascribe negative reasons to Leaving because there are negative reasons. See 1.

 

4. There hasnt been 40 years of pro-EU propaganda, there has been 40 years of understated "getting on with the job" facts versus 30 years of Front-Page Rag lies on a daily basis. See 1 and your not-subtle conversion of facts into propaganda.

 

1. Propaganda is only truly effective when there is only *one* source of info, and that certainly wasn't the case for the referendum.

 

3. But getting Remainers to even admit there might also be positive reasons for leaving the EU, is like getting blood from a stone...

 

4. I have a different description : 30 years of either totally ignoring Euroscepticism, or dismissing it as mere xenophobia - that arrogance came back to bit europhiles on the ass on 23/3/16. If *only* you'd paid more attention to us, this totally self-inflicted defeat could have been *so easily* avoided!

1. Propaganda is only truly effective when there is only *one* source of info, and that certainly wasn't the case for the referendum.

 

3. But getting Remainers to even admit there might also be positive reasons for leaving the EU, is like getting blood from a stone...

 

4. I have a different description : 30 years of either totally ignoring Euroscepticism, or dismissing it as mere xenophobia - that arrogance came back to bit europhiles on the ass on 23/3/16. If *only* you'd paid more attention to us, this totally self-inflicted defeat could have been *so easily* avoided!

 

1. When your only case for leaving is to lie and call those making the opposite case liars, then it's 100% propaganda. You and everyone else has had 2 years to point out the advantages and they are nowhere to be seen, other than

1) Reducing numbers of immigrants (it won't, so that's a lie)

2) taking "back" control politically. That's a lie to start with, as I recall we are doing arms deals all over the world regardless. Want to trade with Europe? Requires their rules whether in or out. want to trade with the rest of the world? A small country on it's own won't get the same good deals as a powerful block. So that's a lie.

3) The New Holy Bible: "Any pain is worth it". This is a change of tactic now the truth is clear, as if it justifies a result based on lies. Had the Leave campaign said from day one "WE will be hurt economically, jobs will go, there wont be great new deals to be made, and the EU wont give us any concessions but it'll all be worth it because of a principle we strongly believe in" then I wouldn't be here reminding you daily about the lies and we would all accept the decision of the referendum. Except Farage and UKIP supporters who refused to accept the result when they thought they'd lost even with the lies.

 

3. You only have to list them.... Still waiting.

 

4. Not ignoring it. Disagreeing with the whipped-up lies by mega-rich politicians trying to save themselves money and gain more power via the use of propaganda. That you can't see other people's viewpoint as valid (which is what you are accusing me and other Remainers of) without accepting reality as it is and resorting to lies to "win" a case and calling facts propaganda shows you have no case.

 

Give examples of your claims. We keep asking for substance to all your beliefs and you keep not providing any. We provide facts and evidence and logic. You provide emotional rhetoric and little else. Because there is little else other than one basic belief: I hate the EU. That's it.

3. You only have to list them.... Still waiting.

 

4. Not ignoring it. Disagreeing with the whipped-up lies by mega-rich politicians trying to save themselves money and gain more power via the use of propaganda. That you can't see other people's viewpoint as valid (which is what you are accusing me and other Remainers of) without accepting reality as it is and resorting to lies to "win" a case and calling facts propaganda shows you have no case.

 

Give examples of your claims. We keep asking for substance to all your beliefs and you keep not providing any. We provide facts and evidence and logic. You provide emotional rhetoric and little else. Because there is little else other than one basic belief: I hate the EU. That's it.

 

Must we go over this *again*?

 

Anything I say just gets dismissed as 'Daily Mail propaganda' so I am not going to waste my time!

 

Your case gets dismissed as Daily Mail propaganda because it is easy to do so with simple facts.

 

But what about the electorate in general - is it really credible that every one of those 17.4m people were 'brainwashed' by anti-EU propaganda?

Yes.

 

The large majority, yes.

 

Why is Brexit even happening? The over 50s voted for it. The under 50s did not. By the time it is implemented, it will be for people who are no longer with us?

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