No. YOU have absolutely no lower limit to what you consider to be a terrible result so fanatical are you. You would rather break up the UK, see everyone struggling for decades and risk screwing an entire generation of young people who would have to suffer the consequences long after you are dead, rather than admit you were wrong.

 

Exaggerate much!

 

Besides, why should I feel guilty for making a choice that that I am as convinced is right, as you are of your choice?

 

That is a definition of fanatical. Forcing something you want because you dont care about the consequences for a principle that you won't benefit anyone, including you, in any way that you have managed to explain yet.

 

I am just one guy - and I refuse to be a scapegoat for 17.4m others, especially for consequences which are still only theoretical.

They're not theoretical though.

 

Economy is slowing down, BoE had to give CPR to the Pound after it flatlined, Skilled workers we need to fill positions in our NHS are avoiding us like the plague is back, India and Australia want better rights of movement for their citizens with any free trade deal, the Amercian's will only give us an FTA if they are the winners from it and we suffer the import of their cheap substandard produce ruining our high standards and jeprodisring the livelihood of farmers already on the brink and finally, the governments own best case scenario analysis says that even if we stayed in the single market the damage to our economy of leaving the EU will be more than 5 times the most optimistic gains.

 

 

All for what? Some illusion of "control" that we seem more than happy to hand off to Maybot without checks and balances? Because the EU is "undemocratic", when we sit here with a House of Lords and a system of democracy that's actually less democratic than the EU? To escape the ECJ, an institution that's sole purpose is to keep the EU's powers in check and act as an appeal court when EU law is involved, interpret EU law and ensures that EU is enforced and memberstates stand by their obligations? Because Brexidiots are too stupid to know the difference between the ECJ and the ECHR which is the court they actually hate? Because "immigrants have taken over" and "swamped public services" despite paying more in than they get out, the UK government failing to actually properly apply the treaties on free movement which would keep out the criminals the sun and the mail complain about and allow for the removal of people here for months on end without work and allow them to be denied recourse to public funds, and on top of all of this they get blamed for the substandard public services that an unnecessary path of Austerity has brought to us?

No. YOU have absolutely no lower limit to what you consider to be a terrible result so fanatical are you. You would rather break up the UK, see everyone struggling for decades and risk screwing an entire generation of young people who would have to suffer the consequences long after you are dead, rather than admit you were wrong. That is a definition of fanatical. Forcing something you want because you dont care about the consequences for a principle that you won't benefit anyone, including you, in any way that you have managed to explain yet.

 

This.

 

WHY can't you see Brexit is NOT worth it??

 

The 'take back sovereignty' line is ridiculous and wrong.

 

Brexit offers NOTHING but takes a lot.

This.

 

WHY can't you see Brexit is NOT worth it??

 

The 'take back sovereignty' line is ridiculous and wrong.

 

Brexit offers NOTHING but takes a lot.

 

Why can't *you* accept that not everyone shares your love of the EU?

Why can't *you* accept that not everyone shares your love of the EU?

 

kettle. frying pan.

kettle. frying pan.

 

That's not really fair - I accept that some people like the EU, it's how the downsides of membership give them so little concern that bemuses me.

 

BTW, there's no need to put up the vice versa argument - I will just take that as read.

That's not really fair - I accept that some people like the EU, it's how the downsides of membership give them so little concern that bemuses me.

 

BTW, there's no need to put up the vice versa argument - I will just take that as read.

 

I'm going to anyway. It's how little concern some people have for a party paid for and controlled by vested rich interests living abroad taking unlimited power that concerns me.

 

there is a graph available showing how average wages have gone up in the EU nations from 2006 to 2015, and how in the same period they have gone down 10% in the UK. That shows that the parties running the UK are the morons, not the EU nation politicians. Granted Greece is an exception...

 

We WILL be worse off. We already are thanks to British politicians. Given free reign it will be much much worse, especially if we lose our biggest market.

I'm going to anyway. It's how little concern some people have for a party paid for and controlled by vested rich interests living abroad taking unlimited power that concerns me.

 

there is a graph available showing how average wages have gone up in the EU nations from 2006 to 2015, and how in the same period they have gone down 10% in the UK. That shows that the parties running the UK are the morons, not the EU nation politicians. Granted Greece is an exception...

 

We WILL be worse off. We already are thanks to British politicians. Given free reign it will be much much worse, especially if we lose our biggest market.

 

That sounds like a pre-23/6 'Project Fear' statement - 'the EU will cut off all trade with us if we leave'

No one said they’d stop trading with us, just that we’d have barriers to trade that weren’t there previously which will have a negative impact on trade.

 

And as for the downsides to being in the EU, I see very few and they’re easily mitigated by the vast benefits.

That sounds like a pre-23/6 'Project Fear' statement - 'the EU will cut off all trade with us if we leave'

 

Not made up figures. Still waiting for you to give us examples of laws we can repeal to our benefit, and waiting for you to explain exactly how it will be benefit us. Or specifically what will you and I definitely gain apart from bland woolly statements which are meaningless about "taking control".

 

Give examples.

No one said they’d stop trading with us, just that we’d have barriers to trade that weren’t there previously which will have a negative impact on trade.

 

And as for the downsides to being in the EU, I see very few and they’re easily mitigated by the vast benefits.

That was the sort of language used by the Leave side. The result was that some people were left with the impression that we couldn't trade with non-EU countries at all - despite the supermarket shelves full of Australian, South African and Chilean wine, television channels dominated by American programmes and lots of fruit from Africa.

No one said they’d stop trading with us, just that we’d have barriers to trade that weren’t there previously which will have a negative impact on trade.

 

And as for the downsides to being in the EU, I see very few and they’re easily mitigated by the vast benefits.

 

Any barriers the EU puts up will hurt them as well as us.

 

It's a pity Remain didn't use that line during the referendum campaign... oh, wait - they *did*, and it didn't work! :rolleyes:

Any barriers the EU puts up will hurt them as well as us.

 

It's a pity Remain didn't use that line during the referendum campaign... oh, wait - they *did*, and it didn't work! :rolleyes:

 

1. Avoiding my comments because you have no answers

 

2. Of course they will hurt. But not as much as destroying the basis of the EU trade would. The EU hasnt lied about anything yet. Everything they have said they have done. Everything the UK Leavers claimed has been a lie.

 

3. Because of liars who had to lie to the public to get the result they were so desperate for that they had to blatantly lie to persuade voters. Still lying. Even in the face of being proven to have lied.

3. Because of liars who had to lie to the public to get the result they were so desperate for that they had to blatantly lie to persuade voters. Still lying. Even in the face of being proven to have lied.

 

So why do you think people were more willing to believe Leave 'lies' than Remain 'truths'?

 

If it was because more of them were inclined to vote Leave anyway, than surely that supports the idea that the campaign actually made little difference?

 

Because the press had already brainwashed people for 30 years with its incessant chatter about the EU because it makes their boss Murdoch feel impotent?

 

Maybe that?

 

Leave promised everything to everyone. More money for the NHS, better economy, staying in the Single Market, out the single market, etc, etc.

 

Add the racist vote on top of Leave lies and there you have a racist thin majority.

Another day, another entry in the "You couldn't make its up" saga,

 

Following Trump's decision to slap hefty tariffs on products such as British steel, disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox has said that he will be working closely with the EU in fighting this. If only there was a way we could make such a close relationship with our neighbours a formality.

So why do you think people were more willing to believe Leave 'lies' than Remain 'truths'?

 

If it was because more of them were inclined to vote Leave anyway, than surely that supports the idea that the campaign actually made little difference?

 

As we've discussed a million times already, people are gullible, especially when they are desperate for change. It was the Banking Crisis that caused the shift, not the EU, Immigrants got the blame, and that is what always happens when politicians look for scapegoats. Always. Throughout history. Guaranteed.

Because the press had already brainwashed people for 30 years with its incessant chatter about the EU because it makes their boss Murdoch feel impotent?

 

Maybe that?

 

This is turning into a full blown obsession with you.

 

Leave promised everything to everyone. More money for the NHS, better economy, staying in the Single Market, out the single market, etc, etc.

 

Add the racist vote on top of Leave lies and there you have a racist thin majority.

Corbyn also made promises on the 2017 GE campaign that he could not possibly have kept if elected - I wonder why you are not complaining about those? :teresa:

 

As we've discussed a million times already, people are gullible, especially when they are desperate for change. It was the Banking Crisis that caused the shift, not the EU, Immigrants got the blame, and that is what always happens when politicians look for scapegoats. Always. Throughout history. Guaranteed.

 

But Euroscepticism has hardly appeared overnight - given that we had to wait 40 years to have our say, how can you blame us for jumping in with both feet when we're finally given the chance?

 

Because you just challenged Remainers to look for positives (present tense).

 

(There aren't any)

 

I guess it was foolish to expect *Remainers* to look for positives in Brexit - I might as well asked Shialemuffqueef to say something nice about the Tories. :P

 

Because a decision 2 years ago based on lies is not the same thing as evidence right now based on the current situation. You are free to make the case and you have failed to do so for 2 years.

 

You do realise that it was never *my* job to make the case for Brexit - all I was asked to do was vote on it. Like almost everyone else who voted for *either side*, I was quite happy to leave the details to those whose job it is to deal with them, i.e. politicians & civil servants.

 

This is turning into a full blown obsession with you.

 

Corbyn also made promises on the 2017 GE campaign that he could not possibly have kept if elected - I wonder why you are not complaining about those? :teresa:

But Euroscepticism has hardly appeared overnight - given that we had to wait 40 years to have our say, how can you blame us for jumping in with both feet when we're finally given the chance?

I guess it was foolish to expect *Remainers* to look for positives in Brexit - I might as well asked Shialemuffqueef to say something nice about the Tories. :P

You do realise that it was never *my* job to make the case for Brexit - all I was asked to do was vote on it. Like almost everyone else who voted for *either side*, I was quite happy to leave the details to those whose job it is to deal with them, i.e. politicians & civil servants.

 

God I am so getting sick of you repeating the old claptrap in your Trump-like "keep saying the same old bullshit until they give up" technique.

 

Again.

 

1. Corbyn and the GE is not Brexit. Aspirations are only pointers dependant on financing them. The Tories lied about everything in the same campaign. Think on that.

 

2. Still waiting for YOU to provide a positive Brexit example for us. Just one little bitty way in which I and you will definitely be better off than we are at the moment.

 

3. The same politicians you call liars. I call liars. So basically you don't want facts and the truth. That certainly fits in with all you say over and over again.

 

YOU havent waited 40 years to have a say. You were a child. The entire discussion was sane, fact-based and set up for perfectly sensible reasons: To avoid war in Europe, to improve very ailing British economy, and for mutual security, as pushed for and set up by Churchill & various Brits. There wasnt a particular movement away from the EU until the Tory party ripped itself apart in the late 80's, and have now ripped us all apart right down the middle along with themselves. You CAN argue you wanted a vote 25 years ago - and I wish there had been, because it's unlikely it would succeeded and we wouldn't have to put up with the eternal moaning about being denied a say as the gutter press propaganda has never ceased in 30 years.

 

Just for info, every time you repeat yourself, I will continue to remind you of your very faulty memory.

God I am so getting sick of you repeating the old claptrap in your Trump-like "keep saying the same old bullshit until they give up" technique.

 

When you start showing my views some respect, then you might get a more positive response from me.

 

I don't mind you *disagreeing* with my decision to vote for Brexit - but when you insinuate that I only did so because of media lies, I simply cannot let that go. You mistake my lack of eloquence in explaining my position, for lack of support for, or commitment to it.

 

What my position ultimately boils down to is - I simply do not trust the EU.

 

Regards.

Edited March 14, 20187 yr by vidcapper