Stop putting words into my mouth and misunderstanding my points. Sound familiar?

 

Achingly.(yawn)

 

I have said many times half my friends and family voted leave. I know exactly what they think, cos, errr I ask them. You are just one person with a fixed blinkered view.

Are you saying you understand why *they* voted for Brexit?

 

 

Democracy does not mean that one third of the country gets to dictate what happens based on a simple referendum without making very good arguments for what effects it is going to have. Make some agood arguments and provide evidence just as the Remain case has.

 

The arguments *were* made by both sides in the weeks running up to Jun 23rd - those put up by the Leave side simply proved more persuasive.

 

 

You can't, because there is none. Just as Davies hasn't, because there is no case. If there was he would provide it. You don't care what happens, that what it all boils down to, and are willing to put the future well-being of the country at risk on a hunch.

 

I am prepared to take a small risk for the change of future gain, yes. That's also why people buy lottery tickets.

 

{I've snipped the Godwins-Law-invoking bits]

Edited December 7, 20177 yr by vidsanta

Achingly.(yawn)

 

Are you saying you understand why *they* voted for Brexit?

The arguments *were* made by both sides in the weeks running up to Jun 23rd - those put up by the Leave side simply proved more persuasive.

I am prepared to take a small risk for the change of future gain, yes. That's also why people buy lottery tickets.

 

{I've snipped the Godwins-Law-invoking bits]

 

1. Yes, yawn

 

2. Yes, I do, and you don't speak for everyone who voted Leave, no matter how you like to pretend. You do not have the gift of telepathy. As we have discussed before.

 

3. People were very persuaded by lies, it turns out. Still waiting for you to show it's all going marvellously as expressed by any prominent Leaver during the referendum, just one example would do.

 

4. Small risk when peoples wellbeing is at stake, is not a small risk. If it was small risk your Idols Of Brexit would have produced facts and figures to show it. They haven't.

 

PS You don't work do you? Not much change in your status then either way (until they cut benefits) unless you are independently wealthy (in which case ditto) so I'm Alright Jack, pretty much. Others won't be so lucky, still never mind, an increase in the suicide rate (more than it has already gone up) and the death rate is a small price to pay for a matter of principle and a slight chance that things might be marginally better 30 years from now.

 

PPS They won't be. All available evidence shows the reverse. Anyone who puts trust in people like Johnson, Davies, Rees-Mogg, Fox & co shows huge bad judgement (eg, shown to be lying, self-servers many times over as we have produced evidence for over and over)

 

PPPS Tick tock tick tock Hard Brexit approaching, and a guaranteed massive jolt to the economy. Followed by Corbyn in power.

 

Enjoy the future...

52% or 37% of the electorate is just really not enough. Brexit should stop, but the brainwashing Murdoch media machine and Tories, desperate not to split so go along with it, convines people it has to based on thosr miniscule figures.

2. Yes, I do, and you don't speak for everyone who voted Leave, no matter how you like to pretend. You do not have the gift of telepathy. As we have discussed before.

 

What reasons that your friends gave for voting Brexit did you accept, while rejecting mine?

 

3. People were very persuaded by lies, it turns out. Still waiting for you to show it's all going marvellously as expressed by any prominent Leaver during the referendum, just one example would do

There are two different aspects

 

1. The negotiations, which are currently stalled

 

2. The end result

 

Problems with the first do not automatically mean the second will fail, though.

.

4. Small risk when peoples wellbeing is at stake, is not a small risk. If it was small risk your Idols Of Brexit would have produced facts and figures to show it. They haven't.

 

At the risk of being accused of distraction again, I do not believe that people should be made to feel guilty for voting an option they prefer, when they are simply putting their own perceived financial well-being ahead of that of total strangers.

 

Getting back to the point - how could supporters of Brexit produce figures to support it *before* it actually happens? They would necessarily be just as speculative as claims of its inevitable failure are.

 

52% or 37% of the electorate is just really not enough. Brexit should stop, but the brainwashing Murdoch media machine and Tories, desperate not to split so go along with it, convines people it has to based on thosr miniscule figures.

 

This seems to be a constant theme of yours, that the minority should prevail - if I were cynical (perish the thought) :teresa: I would suggest that it was an outgrowth of PC where the interests of the minority always come first. ;)

So you think a razor thin majority should make 100% of the decisions and in a union where HALF the nations voted against it? So because England is the most populous what it says, goes? Well, then, it barely nakes being in the union fair at all...

What reasons that your friends gave for voting Brexit did you accept, while rejecting mine?

 

There are two different aspects

 

1. The negotiations, which are currently stalled

 

2. The end result

 

Problems with the first do not automatically mean the second will fail, though.

.

At the risk of being accused of distraction again, I do not believe that people should be made to feel guilty for voting an option they prefer, when they are simply putting their own perceived financial well-being ahead of that of total strangers.

 

Getting back to the point - how could supporters of Brexit produce figures to support it *before* it actually happens? They would necessarily be just as speculative as claims of its inevitable failure are.

This seems to be a constant theme of yours, that the minority should prevail - if I were cynical (perish the thought) :teresa: I would suggest that it was an outgrowth of PC where the interests of the minority always come first. ;)

 

1. I reject theirs too, don't feel persecuted.

 

2. It will fail though, the Irish border is insoluble without splitting the UK or remaining within the single market or erecting a border (and resurrecting the troubles). Unless the DUP can be bought.

 

3. I'm glad you feel that Brexit allows you to act selfishly, even though it actually won't make you better off, it will just make everyone else worse off. On behalf of us all, thanks a lot.

 

4. It's not the minority. Most of the country didnt vote for Brexit. A slim majority of those who turned up did. You don;t have to produce "figures" you just have to produce evidence of lucrative trade deals, of countries lining up to do wonderful business with us, of them moving to this country to take over from those businesses moving to frankfurt & Europe. In short, all of those marvellous things that they guaranteed would follow from Brexit. 18 months and still nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Not one single country of economic significance has said they will give us a better deal than the ones we already with them as members of the EU.

 

De. Lude. Ed. as Suedey said. I don't care what you believe, but you insist on forcing your unsubstantiated opinions on everyone else endlessly, instead of just shutting up and waiting and seeing. We don't mind you being able to say "I told you say" in one year, 2 years, 5 year, 10 years. But until you actually have something new to say, it's getting beyond tedious lreading the same old drivel and having to constantly reply to it so no feeble-minded innocents get taken in by it...

 

I mean that in a caring fashion of course, but enough is enough. We can provide data and figures and back up opinions. You can't because you haven't.

 

 

2. It will fail though, the Irish border is insoluble without splitting the UK or remaining within the single market or erecting a border (and resurrecting the troubles). Unless the DUP can be bought.

Spoiler alert: They can't.

 

As far as I understand it, there's basically three options on the border.

 

1. We try and sign up to a deal which involves a hard border between ROI and NI. The Irish government uses their veto to block this, and we fall out in March 2019 with no deal.

2. We try and sign up to a deal which involves NI effectively staying within the customs union and a sea trade border between NI and Great Britain. The DUP don't support it, and the government falls as Jeremy Corbyn won't bail them out when another early election would probably put him in Downing Street.

3. We cave and go for a deal involving full regulatory alignment on trade between the UK and the EU, effectively staying in the customs union. Hard Brexiteers in the government trigger a confidence vote in Theresa May and the bitter pill of somehow ending up with David Davis as PM is made slightly easier to swallow by the prospect of a reasonably soft Brexit.

I agree and I think that option 3 is the only one that is really on the table here. Clearly however it is in Theresa May's interest to string along the frothing Brexiteers in her cabinet/party for as long as possible and that is why the wording in this deal that is done tomorrow will be suitably vague as to appease both sides and effectively defer this decision until the trade deal is completed in late March 2019.

I really hope that you're right because my fear is that we will end up with number 1 because May will capitulate to the DUP and those looking to cut their nose off to spite their face.

 

If we were dealing with a UK government of rational people an option 4 of "remain in single market & customs union. UK & IRE remain in CTA continuing the permanent opt-out for IRE on the Schengen area to uphold the GFA. Rights of EU nationals in the UK & vice versa is protected by a bi-lateral agreement that continues right to study/work/live and provides for a joint EU-UK court of arbitration to settle disputes overseen by the UK Supreme Court and the EU Courts" would be available. Then again, if the government had been made up of rational people in 2010-2016 we wouldn't be wasting all our time and effort on this mess.

Despite the total incompetence of certain parts of the cabinet involved in the process thus far, I still have faith that they have enough sense to realise that going for the ‘nuclear option’ would not only be catastrophic for the UK but would effectively be political suicide and see the Conservative party out of power for a generation. Much as I'd love to see the Conservatives obliterated politically for a generation, I don't think the trade off would be ultimately worth it.

I don't think those pushing for the cliff actually care about the potential consequences for the island of Ireland and the GFA. That's what concerns me. Many of them see that as a sacrifice worth making for 'the cause'. (and they can all get in the sea)

So you think a razor thin majority should make 100% of the decisions and in a union where HALF the nations voted against it? So because England is the most populous what it says, goes? Well, then, it barely nakes being in the union fair at all...

 

iro your first point - that's how the usually HoC works, and we've seen from recent experience how coalitions prevent strong decisive gov'ts.

 

The nations didn't each have a bloc vote in the referendum - and AFAIK they never have in other situations. In any case, the other nations have more MP's than their population entitles them to, but you don't seem to mind *that*...

1. I reject theirs too, don't feel persecuted.

 

How could I not - I'm outnumbered at least 5-1 *here*, yet the referendum proves the real pro/anti-Brixit is virtually 50/50.

 

3. I'm glad you feel that Brexit allows you to act selfishly, even though it actually won't make you better off, it will just make everyone else worse off.

The article of faith again.

 

4. It's not the minority. Most of the country didnt vote for Brexit. A slim majority of those who turned up did. You don;t have to produce "figures" you just have to produce evidence of lucrative trade deals, of countries lining up to do wonderful business with us, of them moving to this country to take over from those businesses moving to frankfurt & Europe. In short, all of those marvellous things that they guaranteed would follow from Brexit. 18 months and still nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Not one single country of economic significance has said they will give us a better deal than the ones we already with them as members of the EU.

 

We've been through this before, too - the true consequences of Brexit cannot be known *before* the process is completed.

 

De. Lude. Ed. as Suedey said. I don't care what you believe, but you insist on forcing your unsubstantiated opinions on everyone else endlessly, instead of just shutting up and waiting and seeing. We don't mind you being able to say "I told you say" in one year, 2 years, 5 year, 10 years. But until you actually have something new to say, it's getting beyond tedious lreading the same old drivel and having to constantly reply to it so no feeble-minded innocents get taken in by it...

On the contrary, wait & see is what I've been advocating all along - it is *you* who've been preaching 'disaster' all along.

 

The only reason *I'm* reiterating the same old points is because *you* are also doing so - you think I like the repetition? :wacko:

 

I mean that in a caring fashion of course, but enough is enough. We can provide data and figures and back up opinions. You can't because you haven't.

 

Don't pretend I haven't *tried* to do so, but I get kicked back every time because of irrational prejudice against my sources.

Well done Theresa May and David Davis. B-)

 

The EU Commission has now agreed that sufficient progress has been made and for negotiations to move onto Phase 2, and to start trade talks and the future relationship between the UK and the EU. Even Juncker himself has said the UK WILL be leaving on 29th March 2019.

Edited December 8, 20177 yr by PeaceMob

Well done Theresa May and David Davis. B-)

 

The EU Commission has now agreed that sufficient progress has been made and for negotiations to move onto Phase 2, and to start trade talks and the future relationship between the UK and the EU. Even Juncker himself has said the UK WILL be leaving on 29th March 2019.

Convenient time for you to reappear. I assumed you were hiding with David Davis' Brexit impact papers.

Well done Theresa May and David Davis. B-)

 

The EU Commission has now agreed that sufficient progress has been made and for negotiations to move onto Phase 2, and to start trade talks and the future relationship between the UK and the EU. Even Juncker himself has said the UK WILL be leaving on 29th March 2019.

 

If we weren't a major net contributor, we'd have felt their boot on our ass on 24/6/2016... :rolleyes:

How could I not - I'm outnumbered at least 5-1 *here*, yet the referendum proves the real pro/anti-Brixit is virtually 50/50.

 

The article of faith again.

We've been through this before, too - the true consequences of Brexit cannot be known *before* the process is completed.

 

On the contrary, wait & see is what I've been advocating all along - it is *you* who've been preaching 'disaster' all along.

 

The only reason *I'm* reiterating the same old points is because *you* are also doing so - you think I like the repetition? :wacko:

Don't pretend I haven't *tried* to do so, but I get kicked back every time because of irrational prejudice against my sources.

 

I'm not "preaching" disaster, I'm extrapolating based on available facts, and blatantly obvious lies that were told. You have faith all will be well, I don't.

 

The overnight announcement (and let's see the details, not the media blurb) is the first instance of an actual step in the right direction (assuming nothing stupid has been agreed) and Davies had nothing to do with it - May had to sort out the mess. It was, BTW, entirely predicted by that propaganda comic Private Eye many many months ago - that a last-minute agreement would come forth after bluster and much panic.

 

There is no irrational prejudice against your sources. It's rational. Your complete reluctance to accept facts is irrational. Congrats though, you have at long last a positive story to hold up! Plain sailing from here until March 2019.

Well done Theresa May and David Davis. B-)

 

The EU Commission has now agreed that sufficient progress has been made and for negotiations to move onto Phase 2, and to start trade talks and the future relationship between the UK and the EU. Even Juncker himself has said the UK WILL be leaving on 29th March 2019.

 

Correction: David Davies did not have much to do with this agreement.

 

The EU never doubted that the UK was leaving. Why do you think that wasn't the case? Has he said something along the lines of "The UK will never leave if I have anything to do with it"? Cos I don't recall that article.....

If we weren't a major net contributor, we'd have felt their boot on our ass on 24/6/2016... :rolleyes:

 

No doubt, but since the EU are going to be our neighbours, I believe it would be better for everyone that the UK and the EU can be strong allies without the UK actually having to be in it.

There is no irrational prejudice against your sources. It's rational. Your complete reluctance to accept facts is irrational. Congrats though, you have at long last a positive story to hold up! Plain sailing from here until March 2019.

 

I guess it's a breakthrough that you accept some forms of prejudice are rational. :teresa:

 

Seriously though, I saw that story in the Mail, but figured there was no point posting their URL for it.