So, in your hypothetical scenario, he can’t afford to leave 10% of voters but he can afford to lose the potential 90% that voted remain?

 

Aren't you assuming that Labour's Remain voters are so focussed on Brexit that that's all that matters?

 

I'm guessing that only a tiny % of voters are actually prepared to desert the party over Brexit alone, but when you're trailing in the polls, you can't afford to alienate any of your core support...

Aren't you assuming the same about Labour's Leave voters? Point is, I would guess that the numbers of people prepared to make party choices based on that axis are of similar numbers. The crisis in Labour is partly because they have been unable to identify which is the stronger force and have ended up looking weak to all on the issue.

 

One of the key (and indeed only) things apparent about TIG so far is that they are all staunchly Remain, joining only the Liberal Democrats in parties we can say that about. For those that do care about Remain above all others but stuck with Labour in the hopes of actually having a vote mattering, this at the moment is a 'rock-the-boat gently' level. Much more, with rumours that this is far from their peak size abounding, and a possible, and logical, merging with the Lib Dem infrastructure, and a powerful Remain party may actually emerge in the House Of Commons that people can put their vote to without feeling wasted.

 

That is, still very much a maybe. But it does seem like that is among their aims.

It’s been 24 hours without a defection. Could somebody try turning politics off and in again to check that things are still working?

Spacing it out, right? Too many too quickly and fatigue sets in, more effective when the next round starts. Also we're right next to the breaking point for the government's working majority, any more potential Tory defectors might want to stay put for now until the group is more established in infrastructure and can actually fight a potential election in the wake of a government collapse.

True, although I imagined that there would be at least one on a daily basis for the next while to keep the press momentum going. Still, the day is young.

Spacing it out, right? Too many too quickly and fatigue sets in, more effective when the next round starts. Also we're right next to the breaking point for the government's working majority, any more potential Tory defectors might want to stay put for now until the group is more established in infrastructure and can actually fight a potential election in the wake of a government collapse.

 

That's assuming that Tory defectors would actually want to bring the gov't down - they might choose to abstain on a NC vote.

 

Not to mention that a GE would surely see a swift end to their gambit, as they surely wouldn't survive a test of their popularity under their new colours!

Edited February 22, 20196 yr by vidcapper

Nomenclature update - it seems that the group are being dubbed the "TIGgers", which is somewhat endearing, yet slightly ridiculous. I just wonder how long until we hear someone says "the wonderful thing about TIGgers is, we're the only ones" (that are single minded opposed to Brexit in no uncertain terms).

ive also signed up*.* i would love to stand in either my home or uni constituency

 

It'd be more beneficial if you just stuffed that £500 in a charity box... :heehee:

 

An 8th Labour MP, Joan Ryan, has quit the party and is joining the indepenant group - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47300832

 

Interesting to see the new independent group seems to be gaining a little momentum.

 

I thought 'Momentum' was the problem. ;)

 

*Found some interesting data about the size of swings against the Tories even in fairly strongly Leave seats like Peterborough (62% leave), be it to the Lib Dems or to Labour, and this has certain implications. But I'll write about that at a more sensible time of the day. :')

 

By the time of the next GE, Brexit is likely to be old news, though...

 

By the time of the next GE, Brexit is likely to be old news, though...

 

You're nothing is not consistently optimistic!

 

Bitter divides last for generations.

 

The economy may have crashed due to Brexit or shot the roof with success due to Brexit.

 

We might still be arguing over trade deals across the world.

 

We may all have died from sheer tedium at having Brexit trade deals latest for the next decade......

 

 

We may all have died from sheer tedium at (having) Brexit

 

I'm nearly there already. ;)

Ian Austin has become the latest to quit Labour, citing anti Semitism in the party as a reason (he is the son of Jewish refugees). Although interestingly, he is not joining the Tiggers, which some have suggested means that there could be a SECOND breakaway group coming from the Labour/Conservatives, one that isn’t as anti-Brexit as the Tiggers (Austin votes remain, but ruled out o 2nd referendum). May not happen, but interesting nonetheless.

Ian Austin has become the latest to quit Labour, citing anti Semitism in the party as a reason (he is the son of Jewish refugees). Although interestingly, he is not joining the Tiggers, which some have suggested means that there could be a SECOND breakaway group coming from the Labour/Conservatives, one that isn’t as anti-Brexit as the Tiggers (Austin votes remain, but ruled out o 2nd referendum). May not happen, but interesting nonetheless.

 

I suggest we change to STV, then parties could accommodate a larger range of opinions :teresa:

By the time of the next GE, Brexit is likely to be old news, though...

The UK will be arguing about its relationship with Europe for the rest of your life. And so many other things have also become a proxy war around Brexit.

 

Even if the withdrawal agreement passes in March as it is and all our political institutions survive the next few months without collapsing further, it's still in many ways a blind Brexit which takes us into a transition period without a definite answer to the customs union/single market question, nor a way of keeping the Irish border open in the long term.

Not impressed with these defectors - what will their economic views be? Probably agree with each other as they're all pro drip down economics. Umuna states he wants fresh new politics but he wants to undo the result of a referendum result and return to the economics of pre 2008 - does he not understand or care about the people who voted leave and why they felt the need to do this?

 

Ultimately Brexit for me is a question of what's more important economics or democracy!

Not impressed with these defectors - what will their economic views be? Probably agree with each other as they're all pro drip down economics. Umuna states he wants fresh new politics but he wants to undo the result of a referendum result and return to the economics of pre 2008 - does he not understand or care about the people who voted leave and why they felt the need to do this?

 

Ultimately Brexit for me is a question of what's more important economics or democracy!

 

Hi Steve!

 

I think 2008 was more democratic and inclusive and tolerant than 2019 is. The banking crisis gave birth, as economic downturns always do, to intolerance and extremism. The problem was people in power who believed in self-monitoring against all previous laws and common sense and greed. Politics in 2019 is very very broken in the UK & in the US. If you have mainstream parties attacking their own members for believing in consensus politics and reason then there is something seriously wrong with those parties, cos that ain't democracy in any shape or form, it's bullying into submission. If they can't win their argument using calm reason and by being tolerant then they have already lost the argument.

 

If you make a decision to economically self-harm (Hard No-deal Brexit) then democracy will be the first casualty, and society will get even less democratic and extreme and desperate people turn to ever-increasing extreme liars using them to gain power. That's the history of the world I'm afraid.

If you make a decision to self-harm (Hard No-deal Brexit) then democracy will be the first casualty, and society will get even less democratic and extreme and desperate people turn to ever-increasing extreme liars using them to gain power. That's the history of the world.

 

I like think we've learned a *bit* since 1930's Germany...

 

I like think we've learned a *bit* since 1930's Germany...

 

Enough to avoid that extreme one would hope. Sadly, current events in lots of places show lots of angry people trying to impose their will on other people because they are very very angry and therefore they think anything they do and say is right because they are right and others are wrong, even if they believe in a flat earth and facts are inconveniencing their beliefs. That leads to warring factions and helps no-one.

Enough to avoid that extreme one would hope. Sadly, current events in lots of places show lots of angry people trying to impose their will on other people because they are very very angry and therefore they think anything they do and say is right because they are right and others are wrong, even if they believe in a flat earth and facts are inconveniencing their beliefs.

 

Yes, but the politically correct don't know any better, so I forgive them... :teresa:

 

It takes time but I'm sure the uk will be ok in the long term economically even if the short term is tough as businesses and everything else readjusts.

 

You just can't overturn a referendum result because you don't agree. And that from someone like me who never agreed with having one in the first place.

 

In a lot of instances especially in Irish history when we voted for independence economically it clear was going to be tough for many years but we still wanted independence for many different reasons(again Brexit proving why the UK doesn't work equally between all nations/dominance by English mainly Tory MPS) and all economic reason had to wait for the constitutional position to be resolved. But things work out and Ireland is a great example of a pluralist democratic European nation. Obviously Europe has helped a lot but also that link to the USA.

 

When Ireland voted for independence in the 1918 election they had to take matters into their own hands (unfort through violence as well) because any time democracy seemed obvious the rules were changed(Ireland campaigned for self government from the 1870s or even further back to OConnell in the 1840s) by the rich and powerful (Unionist/Tory governments/Imperialists) which led to violence as the injustice was clear. I think the same could be seen if the result of the referendum isn't respected.

Edited February 23, 20196 yr by Steve201

It takes time but I'm sure the uk will be ok in the long term economically even if the short term is tough as businesses and everything else readjusts.

 

You just can't overturn a referendum result because you don't agree. And that from someone like me who never agreed with having one in the first place.

 

In a lot of instances especially in Irish history when we voted for independence economically it clear was going to be tough for many years but we still wanted independence for many different reasons(again Brexit proving why the UK doesn't work equally between all nations/dominance by English mainly Tory MPS) and all economic reason had to wait for the constitutional position to be resolved. But things work out and Ireland is a great example of a pluralist democratic European nation. Obviously Europe has helped a lot but also that link to the USA.

 

When Ireland voted for independence in the 1918 election they had to take matters into their own hands (unfort through violence as well) because any time democracy seemed obvious the rules were changed(Ireland campaigned for self government from the 1870s or even further back to OConnell in the 1840s) by the rich and powerful (Unionist/Tory governments/Imperialists) which led to violence as the injustice was clear. I think the same could be seen if the result of the referendum isn't respected.

If the referendum is advisory (as it was), the government is perfectly entitled to ignore the result.