Amidst a big campaign for the public to have a final say on whatever deal is or isnt agreed, the government has more or less acknowledged that democracy and truth is under major attack in it's proposed legislation to make lies and propaganda the responsibility of service providers, and trolling illegal, along with the spreading of lies and propaganda.

 

About bloody time.....

 

If it comes about, that might stop repulsively fake and racist campaigns like the referendum ever happening again, and foreign enemies having the capacity to fix results in a significant way.

The more we find out about the leave campaign and their illegal activities and campaigning the more I think that the right thing to do is for our politicians to grow a spine and ignore the result of what is just an opinion poll. Vidcapper likes to speak a lot, without saying anything, about democracy but the evidence that is mounting higher and higher every day is that the referendum was undemocratic and allowing it to stand and take us down this destructive path is a hideous attack on our parliamentary democracy.

PS

 

"

Graham Linehan Retweeted Rohullah Yakobi

f*** Brexit forever.

 

@Roh_Yakobi

Nothing is more painful than being told "You don't belong to this country. Get the f*** out!", with your ten year old standing there and breaking into tears. This happened to us for the fifth time yesterday since the #Brexit vote - only once before that in 10 years."

 

Using previous arguments that it's down to the "community" to take action on members of that "community" who are a problem, then white Brexiters should be slagging off racists using Brexit as an excuse to be racist, and non-white Brexiters should be livid at this sort of thing. Pretty sure the culprit didn't vote Remain...

The more we find out about the leave campaign and their illegal activities and campaigning the more I think that the right thing to do is for our politicians to grow a spine and ignore the result of what is just an opinion poll. Vidcapper likes to speak a lot, without saying anything, about democracy but the evidence that is mounting higher and higher every day is that the referendum was undemocratic and allowing it to stand and take us down this destructive path is a hideous attack on our parliamentary democracy.

 

I agree. Mad May needs to grow a spine and say, look, this isn't working out, we are rationing food, which is just insane, and we are either getting an inferior deal, or no deal at all, so let's stay. We can reopen the debate once Leavers have concrete plans in a few years.

...and I'll add this helpful tweet from a Councillor:

 

"Dear @theresa_may

After all that handholding he’s dumped you.

He’s sorting out life without you after you’ve taken the UK into economic oblivion.

Bet you’re feeling silly now?

What are you like?

Yours,

JohnCllr John Edwards

 

 

@realDonaldTrump

The United States and the European Union have a $1 TRILLION bilateral trade relationship – the largest economic relationship in the world. We want to further strengthen this trade relationship to the benefit of all…"

 

Oops, looks like that way better deal with the USA is dead in the water and the Republican promise to steal all of the UK"s business once we are alone and vulnerable is tootling along nicely. Sometimes what people say behind your back is quite enlightening.....

 

Amidst a big campaign for the public to have a final say on whatever deal is or isnt agreed, the government has more or less acknowledged that democracy and truth is under major attack in it's proposed legislation to make lies and propaganda the responsibility of service providers, and trolling illegal, along with the spreading of lies and propaganda.

 

Surely that would eliminate political campaigning altogether? :heehee:

 

If it comes about, that might stop repulsively fake and racist campaigns like the referendum ever happening again, and foreign enemies having the capacity to fix results in a significant way.

Seriously though, what about the law of unintended consequences? It would make it virtually impossible for changes popular with the public, but resisted by the main parties, to make any political headway

 

The more we find out about the leave campaign and their illegal activities and campaigning the more I think that the right thing to do is for our politicians to grow a spine and ignore the result of what is just an opinion poll. Vidcapper likes to speak a lot, without saying anything, about democracy but the evidence that is mounting higher and higher every day is that the referendum was undemocratic and allowing it to stand and take us down this destructive path is a hideous attack on our parliamentary democracy.

 

This would be a suicidal course for the Tories though, as they would re-lose all the votes they'd gained back from UKIP in 2017, which might well hand the next election to Corbyn's Labour, and the consequences of that would be far worse than any from even a Hard-Brexit!

 

@Roh_Yakobi

Nothing is more painful than being told "You don't belong to this country. Get the f*** out!", with your ten year old standing there and breaking into tears. This happened to us for the fifth time yesterday since the #Brexit vote - only once before that in 10 years."

 

Using previous arguments that it's down to the "community" to take action on members of that "community" who are a problem, then white Brexiters should be slagging off racists using Brexit as an excuse to be racist, and non-white Brexiters should be livid at this sort of thing. Pretty sure the culprit didn't vote Remain...

 

I hope no-one here thinks I wouldn't condemn such overt racism?

 

I agree. Mad May needs to grow a spine and say, look, this isn't working out, we are rationing food, which is just insane, and we are either getting an inferior deal, or no deal at all, so let's stay. We can reopen the debate once Leavers have concrete plans in a few years.

 

I have seen no reports of food being rationed - perhaps you could provide a concrete example, rather than scaremongering?

 

 

Seriously though, what about the law of unintended consequences? It would make it virtually impossible for changes popular with the public, but resisted by the main parties, to make any political headway

This would be a suicidal course for the Tories though, as they would re-lose all the votes they'd gained back from UKIP in 2017, which might well hand the next election to Corbyn's Labour, and the consequences of that would be far worse than any from even a Hard-Brexit!

I hope no-one here thinks I wouldn't condemn such overt racism?

 

1. There is nothing to stop anyone campaigning for anything in the universe. As long as they tell the truth.

 

Here's what the morality-free, corrupt, foreign-funded, Russian-interfering, lying Leave campaign was up to the day after the murder of an MP:

 

"@shahmiruk

It was agreed that there would be a 3 day pause on campaigning when Jo Cox was murdered. AIQ/Vote Leave pushed out ads 10pm the day after her death. Here’s the evidence which was given to the electoral commissio…

Show this thread"

 

They were targeting voters based on ethnicity to appeal to each individually claiming different things, and caring not a jot about agreements and human decency.

 

2. Project Fear statement. Pure speculation based on nothing. Sounds like an attempt to say legislation to prevent lies and propaganda is somehow not desirable.

 

3. Not saying anything about what you think. Just saying you make the case for one community to speak up, and I'm making the case based on your beliefs that it applies to another community. I personally don't believe any Brexiter has the responsibility for the actions of a racist, but they do have the responsibility if they claim that other community members somehow have responsibilities to their community - but not them and their community. As I've said many times, I can't stand hypocrisy and one rule for one and another rule for others.

1. There is nothing to stop anyone campaigning for anything in the universe. As long as they tell the truth.

 

2. Project Fear statement. Pure speculation based on nothing. Sounds like an attempt to say legislation to prevent lies and propaganda is somehow not desirable.

 

3. Not saying anything about what you think. Just saying you make the case for one community to speak up, and I'm making the case based on your beliefs that it applies to another community. I personally don't believe any Brexiter has the responsibility for the actions of a racist, but they do have the responsibility if they claim that other community members somehow have responsibilities to their community - but not them and their community. As I've said many times, I can't stand hypocrisy and one rule for one and another rule for others.

 

1. But whoever is in charge, politically, is in a position to hide/discredit unpleasant truths <cough>Trump<cough>

 

2. But it all comes back to Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Any legislation that makes it harder for people to oppose a government, is wide open to misuse. I doubt Queef (or whatever he's calling himself now) would be happy at the Tories having that sort of power...

Edited July 30, 20187 yr by vidcapper

The government and supermarket and Mad May's OWN REPORTS!!

 

Suicide is Brexit. Ignoring the opinion poll, which btw was 50 50 and demographics are now on our side anyway, is logical.

The government and supermarket and Mad May's OWN REPORTS!!

 

Suicide is Brexit. Ignoring the opinion poll, which btw was 50 50 and demographics are now on our side anyway, is logical.

 

1. Exactly.

 

2, Do you really think the 17.4m of us who will have been urinated on from a great height by our own government, will simply sit around and take it?! :angry:

Yes as no one cared particularly about leaving until the fever campaigns of Nazi Farage and Bojo and the press. The 16 million have been calm enough, plus 1million youth are now on the register and 1 million older people are not. Do the maths? You actually don't have 17 million anymore but remain does.

1. But whoever is in charge, politically, is in a position to hide/discredit unpleasant truths <cough>Trump<cough>

 

2. But it all comes back to Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Any legislation that makes it harder for people to oppose a government, is wide open to misuse. I doubt Queef (or whatever he's calling himself now) would be happy at the Tories having that sort of power...

 

1. Cough, Trump uses lack of laws obliging to tell the truth as a smoke screen, cough. The legislation should ideally prevent that because anyone repeating the lies without challenging them with the truth.

 

2. There is no contradiction between being obliged to not lie and being manipulated by people being forced to tell the truth. No-one should ever be afraid of the truth. Lies distort democracy, they dont enhance it. There is nothing about being unable to challenge any government in it. Quite the reverse, it ensures they can't weasel out of things by lying and calling the truth ":fake news" as Trump does all the time, and Farage, Johnson, Davies, Gove & co all did during the referendum, while avoiding accepting they all lied through their teeth. Veni Vidi Vici.

 

Here's a good comment on the BBC and media generally of late:

 

"Peter Geoghegan

‏

 

Nature of discussion on illegal Brexit campaigning on @BBCRadio4 now is remarkable. Presenter and a series of guests saying ‘nothing to see here’ despite repeated findings that laws were broken. Why is Britain turning a blind eye to its democracy being corrupted?"

 

answer: because they support the aim and are willing to resort to lies to get it, and to protect the result even though it clearly should be nullified as fair and democratic. Bear in mind, the government negotiating Brexit should have the upper hand in presenting information to the people, arguing their case, and send out leaflets to that effect ahead of any final referendum. The ball is fairly and squarely in their court, so there should be no fear of giving people the facts as they see them in black and white, and leave us to make our minds up about whether we are happy about the job they have done on our behalf, as promised.

1. Exactly.

 

2, Do you really think the 17.4m of us who will have been urinated on from a great height by our own government, will simply sit around and take it?! :angry:

 

1. If the people promising a marvellous Brexit then provide facts that it won't be marvellous, and fail to provide it, then everyone has a right to rethink their original vote.

 

2. There you go again claiming 17.4m people feel exactly as you do. YOU are not spokesperson for anyone but yourself. Stop claiming you know how 17,399,999 other people feel about anything. A referendum will provae that one way or the other and everyone has an opportunity to democratically judge whether what was promised was delivered. Whatever side loses there is no right to do anything illegal because you don't like the result - just as Remainers have stayed within the letter of the law despite feeling as strongly as Leavers about the situation. Sounds like you are threatening violence and disorder following a democratic vote because you don't believe in democracy, or more likely, as Project Fear having found Project Lie has been exposed.

 

Maybe if Brexiters had opted for Project Reality and Project Truth right from day one they wouldnt look so useless as they try to defend the indefensible so desperate are they to get their own way, regardless of the consequences.

 

 

1. If the people promising a marvellous Brexit then provide facts that it won't be marvellous, and fail to provide it, then everyone has a right to rethink their original vote.

 

2. There you go again claiming 17.4m people feel exactly as you do. YOU are not spokesperson for anyone but yourself. Stop claiming you know how 17,399,999 other people feel about anything. A referendum will provae that one way or the other and everyone has an opportunity to democratically judge whether what was promised was delivered. Whatever side loses there is no right to do anything illegal because you don't like the result - just as Remainers have stayed within the letter of the law despite feeling as strongly as Leavers about the situation. Sounds like you are threatening violence and disorder following a democratic vote because you don't believe in democracy, or more likely, as Project Fear having found Project Lie has been exposed.

 

Maybe if Brexiters had opted for Project Reality and Project Truth right from day one they wouldnt look so useless as they try to defend the indefensible so desperate are they to get their own way, regardless of the consequences.

 

1. I never bought into the obvious BS that Brexit would make Britain into a utopia - I just believe that political & economic independence is worth an acceptable risk

 

2. A referendum*did* prove it, but it seems folly to call for another one before the consequnces have played themselves out, i.e. they are more than merely theoretical.

 

I *never* threaten violence, I merely extrapolate from what has happened in other countries when a democratic vote has been arbitrarily overturned.

We have given you examples where similar opinion poll referenda with similar marginal 'wins' have also been ignored. Yours is Project Fear.

We have given you examples where similar opinion poll referenda with similar marginal 'wins' have also been ignored. Yours is Project Fear.

 

No you haven't - your examples included a built-in 'escape' clause, which the gov't could point to - the Brexit referendum had no such conditions.

 

****************************************************

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/l...mment-118916622

 

Offering second Brexit referendum would strengthen PM against Tory Brexiters, says Mandelson

 

Yeah, right - because that line worked so well for Mr Cameron in 2016... :rolleyes:

IT. WAS. ADVISORY.

 

It carried the same legal weighting as a bloody Ipsos Mori poll

1. I never bought into the obvious BS that Brexit would make Britain into a utopia - I just believe that political & economic independence is worth an acceptable risk

 

2. A referendum*did* prove it, but it seems folly to call for another one before the consequnces have played themselves out, i.e. they are more than merely theoretical.

 

I *never* threaten violence, I merely extrapolate from what has happened in other countries when a democratic vote has been arbitrarily overturned.

 

We already have political independence. No country on Earth has economic independence.

No you haven't - your examples included a built-in 'escape' clause, which the gov't could point to - the Brexit referendum had no such conditions.

 

****************************************************

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/l...mment-118916622

 

Offering second Brexit referendum would strengthen PM against Tory Brexiters, says Mandelson

 

Yeah, right - because that line worked so well for Mr Cameron in 2016... :rolleyes:

 

Because it was ADVISORY and there was not even a three nation block because it was ADVISORY

 

1. I never bought into the obvious BS that Brexit would make Britain into a utopia - I just believe that political & economic independence is worth an acceptable risk

 

2. A referendum*did* prove it, but it seems folly to call for another one before the consequnces have played themselves out, i.e. they are more than merely theoretical.

 

I *never* threaten violence, I merely extrapolate from what has happened in other countries when a democratic vote has been arbitrarily overturned.

 

1. You weren't running the campaign. Liars were. Plus you spent a good year claiming there would be benefits, following the Brexiter Lie line before you all changed your tactics once it was obvious it was all lies.

 

2. No, it's folly to accept the result of a rubbish deal that we were promised we wouldn't get and which will damage the economy. There is no doubt about this. Even Rees-Mogg said it might take up to 50 years and he's a rabid Brexiter moving his own businesses to Dublin. The referendum proved nothing except how gullible people are when they are told how marvellous things will be by liars, and bombarded with propaganda.

 

3. No, that's Project fear. All Remain were doing in the campaign were extrapolating probable outcomes (being pretty much proven by now). Leave were making stuff up, like a million Turkish immigrants taking over the country. Project Lie. Project Fear. The irony is they accused the other side of doing what they actually were doing in reality, while collaborating with rich Russian-linked liars.

 

Plus, it wouldn't be arbitrarily overturned undemocratically. It would be democracy in action. You just don't want democracy and the people having the final say on our collective future. People who object to the democratic will of the will of the people, once it has become very clear exactly what they want, and not based on a vague promise of a million different things, would have no right to resort to violence, and would quite rightly be put in prison for it. That applies to both sides of the argument, and neither should in any way influence the outcome with Project Fear threats.