I don't disagree with you there. I didn't vote for Brexit but the fact we are in the state we are in now is down to the government and their overwhelming lack of any advanced planning whatsoever.

 

Yes, the HoC are largely Remainers too, and no doubt the civil service were assuring them that Leave couldn't possibly win, not to mention the then PM didn't think so either...

There are now suggestions that the vote on the deal could be as late as 25 March, the beginning of the week in which we are due to leave. That would leave whole raft of legislation that would need to be passed in just a few days. The governs,tn would have to use emergency powers to push it through with the minimum of scrutiny.

 

Remind me again which institution is supposedly undemocratic.

I must admit I’ve not been following the latest Brexit developments closely, but as far I can tell, the current strategy that Remain is trying is to stop Brexit by getting naked, because by getting naked, Brexit won’t happen, because reasons.

 

I had a feeling that Theresa May would leave things as late as possible before March 29th before calling a final vote, as it would scare those fearful of No Deal into voting for any deal, scared of what would happen otherwise, so if what’s been said is true, it would not surprise me.

that's been her blatantly obvious tactic for quite some time, now confirmed by loose lips in a pub (despite her denials) & at least one senior minister.

 

This isn;t about getting the EU to change it's mind (it won't, it can't) it's about making MP's panic into supporting her deal smoothed with sweetners to potential Labour MP's looking for some infrastructure cash they can waggle in the face of their voters to vote for it.

There are now suggestions that the vote on the deal could be as late as 25 March, the beginning of the week in which we are due to leave. That would leave whole raft of legislation that would need to be passed in just a few days. The governs,tn would have to use emergency powers to push it through with the minimum of scrutiny.

 

Remind me again which institution is supposedly undemocratic.

 

Well, MP's could hardly complain about a rush job *they* caused by rejecting the deal the first time...

Well, MP's could hardly complain about a rush job *they* caused by rejecting the deal the first time...

That is a joke, isn't it?

 

May postponed the vote from just before Christmas. She's the one who called an election rather than getting on with the negotiations. She's the one who triggered Article 50 without even the vaguest hint of a plan. The fault is entirely hers.

That is a joke, isn't it?

 

May postponed the vote from just before Christmas. She's the one who called an election rather than getting on with the negotiations. She's the one who triggered Article 50 without even the vaguest hint of a plan. The fault is entirely hers.

 

Nearly as culpable are the 163 Labour MPs that also voted in favour of triggering it, who seem to have gotten off comparatively lightly.

There are now suggestions that the vote on the deal could be as late as 25 March, the beginning of the week in which we are due to leave. That would leave whole raft of legislation that would need to be passed in just a few days. The governs,tn would have to use emergency powers to push it through with the minimum of scrutiny.

 

Remind me again which institution is supposedly undemocratic.

 

Utterly irresponsible but I guess we shouldn't expect any better with her track record

Nearly as culpable are the 163 Labour MPs that also voted in favour of triggering it, who seem to have gotten off comparatively lightly.

No, she is more to blame. Not that I will say a word in defence of those Labour MPs. The so-called official opposition have to share some of the blame for this madness.

There are now suggestions that the vote on the deal could be as late as 25 March, the beginning of the week in which we are due to leave.

In that case I'll be starting work on that Monday morning, with me and my employers not knowing if I'd still be legally employable by the end of the week or able to collect my salary for the next payday in April.

 

There are so many British people I heard from at an emergency meeting on Monday night, living in France for decades, who for various reasons risk being put into an irregular, undocumented status as illegal immigrants in just a few weeks' time. One of the more drastic examples is that of the 19 year old daughter of a British family who've been long-term residents in France. She's currently studying/living at a UK university and as an adult but without yet having financial autonomy, an employment and financial history, she cannot prove her past residence as a minor in France and risks being unable to live with/visit her own family under a Schengen Visa for more than 90 days every 6 months. In the university holidays, she'd therefore be stranded in a country where she has no real connections. Even in the case of the Hard Brexit deal negotiated by May, there's no guarantee that we'd be able to get access to the right to work, healthcare and benefits here once the transition period ends. The UK government can get to fuck.

Perfect examples of the human cost of Brexit, which drives home just how unnecessary it is on its own, and yet it's made so much worse by the incompetence of those executing it.

With no healthcare arrangements there are thousands of elderly Brits who will be forced to return to the UK putting strain on the NHS, housing, and in coming years carers - at the moment they get Spanish hospital treatment, paid for by the NHS, at around half the cost in the UK for the equivalent. Some of them voted for Brexit blissfully unaware that this situation might come about - so one might expect them liable to change their vote on a second referendum - which Jeremy Corbyn refuses to contemplate despite his own party's policy and his previous lies on the issue.

 

Voting intention polls suggest Leave would still win, but that at least would shut up the arguing, May's deal would be carried and that would end the danger of a No-Deal Brexit. If Leave lost, then democracy is the winner and future damage to the economy and lives is halted. Win-win.

With no healthcare arrangements there are thousands of elderly Brits who will be forced to return to the UK putting strain on the NHS, housing, and in coming years carers - at the moment they get Spanish hospital treatment, paid for by the NHS, at around half the cost in the UK for the equivalent. Some of them voted for Brexit blissfully unaware that this situation might come about - so one might expect them liable to change their vote on a second referendum - which Jeremy Corbyn refuses to contemplate despite his own party's policy and his previous lies on the issue.

 

Voting intention polls suggest Leave would still win, but that at least would shut up the arguing, May's deal would be carried and that would end the danger of a No-Deal Brexit. If Leave lost, then democracy is the winner and future damage to the economy and lives is halted. Win-win.

 

It has often been mentioned here that a No-Deal Brexit was not on the ballot paper, but Remainers conveniently 'forget' that neither was 'the creation of an EU Superstate' on the 1975 one... :no:

 

IMO if it had been, the 1975 result would have been very much closer... :thinking:

Ah yes, the real disaster that is going to happen next month against a fantasy that is neutral at worst for a world where borders at all levels should trend towards decreasing relevance, particularly given a superstate has not happened and will not happen for the foreseeable future. Truly equal worries.

It has often been mentioned here that a No-Deal Brexit was not on the ballot paper, but Remainers conveniently 'forget' that neither was 'the creation of an EU Superstate' on the 1975 one... :no:

 

IMO if it had been, the 1975 result would have been very much closer... :thinking:

 

It didn't mention us becoming the 51st US state, alienating the Commonwealth countries, allowing Russia to influence our elections and referendums, failing to fly to mars, or losing Eurovision for 20 years either. If people had known all of those things in 1975 they might have voted very much the same way given they were far more worried about communism and the rise of another fascist world war than they were about doubling the number of democracies and all doing economically miles better :P

 

But of course anyone can play wouldabeen shouldabeen...

It didn't mention us becoming the 51st US state, alienating the Commonwealth countries, allowing Russia to influence our elections and referendums, failing to fly to mars, or losing Eurovision for 20 years either.

 

Because those things were obviously irrelevant.

 

If people had known all of those things in 1975 they might have voted very much the same way given they were far more worried about communism and the rise of another fascist world war than they were about doubling the number of democracies and all doing economically miles better :P

 

But of course anyone can play wouldabeen shouldabeen...

 

Too true - you Remainers have become experts at it. :teresa:

Because those things were obviously irrelevant.

Too true - you Remainers have become experts at it. :teresa:

 

No, logical extrapolation of facts and likelihoods is not the same as fantasy lies, which is entirely the realm of the Russian-supported corrupt, rich, lying Brexiteers. Those things were as relevant as making assumptions what people who had just lived through World War 2 would think the same as you of a democratic EU superstate where everyone has personal iphones, computers, central heating, cars, massive TV's, no wars, peace, long-life, massive medical advances, jobs, fairness, and opportunities, things which were unlikely in 1975 and which they might actually quite like the sound of, just because you like moaning about the EU as the root of all our problems doesn;t mean they would see it that way - that seems to be the ungrateful rose-tinted younger generation from 1975, folk who think things are worse than they used to be (they aren't, unless you are talking Banking Crisis, and that wasn't the fault of the EU, it was specifically the fault of Thatcher & Tories, and the politicians who chose to ignore reason and facts and history for fantasy pyramid schemes shoving extra tax into their budgets).

 

as I said shoulda woulda anyone can play at.....

So with the government being defeated over their Brexit strategy (informal vote of course), can we say that there is enough support in the Commons to block no deal and therefore May's absurd brinksmanship 'my deal or no deal' ploy is dead? Meaning the deal gets rejected again and then the House votes on obtaining an extension, but then Labour abstained from voting for an extension and the ERG abstained from voting on this one. So despite Parliament rejecting the current Brexit strategy, the government will carry on doing it anyway and try to sneak the deal through Parliament while hanging the threat of no deal above the rest of the MPs heads. Right?

 

Seems so undemocratic to ignore the result of an informal vote.

May has demonstrated an absurd tendency to use the advisory referendum slim majority to justify bypassing Parliament at every opportunity, as if she were Queen Of The UK in an old-school non-parliamentary aristocratic Game Of Thrones. She did it when she was elected leader of the Tory Party, when she tried to shut Parliament out of the Brexit process, ignored Judicial procedures, gambled on getting the public to back her vision to over-rule Parliament and it back-fired, and has continued to string it out needlessly for months with the sole purpose of blackmailing MP's to accept her unpopular deal or gamble the economic future of the UK.

 

She is a terrible useless undemocratic unprincipled PM.

May has demonstrated an absurd tendency to use the advisory referendum slim majority to justify bypassing Parliament at every opportunity, as if she were Queen Of The UK in an old-school non-parliamentary aristocratic Game Of Thrones. She did it when she was elected leader of the Tory Party, when she tried to shut Parliament out of the Brexit process, ignored Judicial procedures, gambled on getting the public to back her vision to over-rule Parliament and it back-fired, and has continued to string it out needlessly for months with the sole purpose of blackmailing MP's to accept her unpopular deal or gamble the economic future of the UK.

 

She is a terrible useless undemocratic unprincipled PM.

 

On the contrary, she is abiding by the people's wishes - and since parliament's power derives *from* the people, then their choice, when specifically requested, should be sovereign! It is one of the very few things I respect her for.

 

 

Edited February 15, 20196 yr by vidcapper