Your "exaggerated" views are just that. Your views. I prefer to deal with facts and previous. Putin: ended democracy in Russia, turned adjacent countries into vassel states, invaded Crimea then got away with it and went back for more. Talk of NATO is just n excuse, NATO armies can get to Russia from any where they want to, it's irrelevant whether they attack from Ukraine or other countries within NATO - which they/we never will if he would just f*** off and mind his own business, because we believe in democracy. So did the USA before Trump turned them into the baddies who also want to end democracy in the USA and everywhere else. If you can't see that is reality then your opinion isn't based on reason and observation, it may be based on youtube propaganda videos, which is the main problem with the MAGA loonies, who know zero about the real world and are fed "facts" that can be traced back to Putin who is polluting and capturing large parts of the West by using people's own stupidity against them. Just watched one myself. They love Putin. They are morons. They have no idea how to research actual facts.

 

Meanwhile previously: Afghanistan was invaded by Russia long before the USA went there (and not for any reason, other than they just could) and found out that reality is a bitch, and withdrew to leave a mess that attacked the USA, in much the same way as Hamas attacked Israel, and both were courses of action that were nuts and led to far worse - except that the attempt in Afghanistan to remove terrorism and oppression was a failure because, guess what, Trump withdrew and left them. net result: women are now prisoners in their own country and it's busy simmering along with other extremists. Extremists do not take other people's welfare into account (they really don't care about them), they aren't logical, and they cause chaos and misery. If you don't stand up to them (as the West hasnt for a quarter of a century with Russia) they instead enrich themselves and commit blatant murders of any opposition anywhere in the world, just as they've been trying to do with Zelensky.

 

All of my views are available to read on back-issue postings on Buzzjack, and I always take a long look at consequences, it's my favourite by-word because people by and large are myopic and look down on cynics. Cynics don't cause chaos, optmists do, largely because they are so sure of themselves that they fail to see warning signs. Working in local government I had decades of watching people make the same mistakes again and again, and failing to listen to experts and reason, and consequences..? Huge debts multiple times. Every one of 'em was caused by right-wing optimists aided and abetted by the right-wing government until they got so nutty that even The Tory Government had to step in and say "NO!!". Much like the USA where the right-wing give billionaires cash breaks and then use debts as an excuse to cut social programmes to help the poor. The biggest needy social tax-leech in the world is Musk. His fortune is mostly tax-payer paid and almost all of it has just gone towards fantasy projects and his cars. In the past it was Democrats that reduced the debt, but those days are gone now and the damage coming to everyone is going to be enormous. There is no escaping it because Trump is a f***ing fascist moron and he is going to make his own people poorer, and alienate everyone but dictators. And he doesnt give a shit how many people he kills as a by-product of his own insane greedy self-worshipping, never has, not even his supporters. The irony is the US governments created their own downfall by privatising space travel over to Musk and subsidising the bullshitter's cars. Even I didn't see that one coming.....

 

I don't habitually swear in real life, but sometimes it's useful to underline something that is (another fave word coming) bleedingly-obvious and has been to me for the last 10 years. I've said so, repeatedly.

 

Well no, I mean it’s objectively a fact too that Russia has struggled to make much headway. They’ve lost Assad and are having to resort to bolstering frontlines with North Korean troops. Yes my view in the future is that they won’t be doing all these things you guys claim but it’s obvious their threat on the ground has been exaggerated. Ukraine are outmanned, outgunned and so forth yet they’re holding the line pretty well.

 

This idea we believe in democracy is just sketchy. Indonesia, Egypt, Saudis to state just a few. If a regime is western friendly they’re okay if not suddenly we care about democracy and they have to go. It’s clearly not a truly held belief by most people espousing it.

 

If the genuine belief is that people seeing things different are crazy loonies being fed info by a Putin bot it’s no wonder you are getting so angry this is not reality and propaganda is not restricted to Russia.

 

Blaming Trump for Afghanistan is pretty lazy. This was clearly a widely agreed upon decision. Russia’s invasion was not for no reason it was for financial reasons probably the same reason as the US overall. Let’s not forget the west supported Bin Laden and the Taliban against Russia. It’s a country that had a lot of natural resources. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Israel had bombed the hell out of Lebanon. Bin Laden wanted revenge. America finances and supplies Israel etc etc. Same way the Donbas war was rumbling on for 8 years with Kiev killing many people in Donbas and this ultimately was partly reason for the Russia attack. The IRA was mentioned before and Steve said he supports them as did many Americans yet they bombed innocent people. This is why it’s futile to get involved in the disputes everyone has around the world as there are usually layers and layers and layers of complexity and history to them with everybody feeling they are on the more moral side. Certain times that is clear what that is and other times it is not. Ukraine have murdered journalists( what happened to Gonzalo Lira?)and dissenters and forced people to fight who never wanted to. War brings out the worst people.

 

You cannot see the world in the way you do and see it clearly, numerous terrible decisions were made by left wing governments, numerous wars too. In fact the current Labour Gov is proposing cutting the welfare bill to boost defense spending. You will be very lost if you see things as right wing good left wing bad, most of the guys you mention Musk and Trump were considered left wing much of their life. Did they suddenly become bad people or were they always the same type of person.

 

The real damage is that this utopian democratic multicultural utopia the west is used to selling is a harder sell when most people in these countries aren’t happy. Nobody is comfortable funding democratic missions abroad when there is a big mess at home. Trump won not because of loonies but because of the circumstances people found themselves in.

 

Ultimately I don’t see any solutions.

 

If you disagreed with the decision to leave Afghanistan

 

1. What was your solution? Let soldiers keep losing limbs and being killed?

The Afghan Army clearly wasn’t putting up a fight

2. Did you originally support invading?

 

If you did then ultimately your foresight isn’t as good as you think since it achieved nothing and tons of money and lives were wasted. It’s not our fight. Nobody wants backwards barbarians running a country but you cannot police the world. It’s costly and ultimately it was not possible to win long term.

 

So this conflict is the same.

 

You can keep spending billions to fund Ukraine in a battle they’ll ultimately lose….see hundreds of thousands more die and it all will be for nothing.

 

Or? What’s your actual solution? Much like the EU there isn’t one. Nobody has a solution. The other solution is all out war with Russia are you happy with that one? Personally I don’t think the UK should risk being involved in world war 3 due to Donbas.

 

So the only sensible solution is to talk, make a deal and if this was done earlier then maybe Ukraine would be in a better position and they wouldn’t be getting fleeced from all angles. The world is supposed to advance and evolve. War rarely ever brings good results that’s why the crucial time is before it starts. Yet when that was happening everyone said Putin is bluffing just ignore him more empty Russian threats. Now everybody thinks they’re about to invade everywhere.

 

For what it's worth, I don't entirely disagree with Liam's point.

 

...however my solve would be more in the vein of targeted strikes on high value targets to resolve everything quicker rather than a long war of attrition. Lol.

 

Funnily enough the takeway from the situation with the IRA and the Troubles IS, to an extent, much as the state likes to have a monopoly on it, ultimately, violence did solve that problem. It took both sides to a very nasty place, and it left a lot of people with damage, but through conflict peace WAS eventually forced, along with removal of both the leaders that caused the most harsh of the hardship in the first place, and following that, the conditions that created that hardship.

 

However, the similarlty between Ukraine and the Troubles from the perspective of the native population is in fact, that both believed themselves to be facing an existential threat.

And it's hard for those of us not directly there but who sympathise to convey the coldly logical decision that to give up your land and your territory, your home and your culture, may be if not the winning move, the enforced move with the highest chance of survival. Because in doing so, that survival also ensures that people actively give up many things that make them who they are.

yes left wing good right wing bad, glad we're on the same page

 

You keep saying 'well, what can you do, we don't have another solution, we must end the war', when your beloved Trumpian government is approaching the negotiations with the outlook of 'give the invader everything he wants, and let's also spin a narrative that Ukraine are the real bad guys here'. It's not simple peace they're after, it's capitulation - there are many options for peace such as bringing in outside, impartial negotiators (say for the sake of argument, Qatari, like with Israel/Palestine), but the principle reason that hasn't happened yet is because Russia won't want to end the war on anything other than their terms. Which doesn't mean you give into them, because not only is Putin emboldened but every tinpot dictator or democratic backslider from Minsk to Pyongyang to Pretoria will be looking for ways they can try their luck - the international order now says might makes right after all.

 

also it's not relevant to the main discussion but it's a very telling part of your screed... why is multiculturalism bad, exactly?

Ah yes Liam, the well-known fantastical left wing Musk & Trump :lol:

 

I find this "it's not our fight" is so naive and ultimately comes back to bite everyone on your ass. If your friends were being beaten up by some random idiot would you sit back and be like "not my fight mate, you take those punches" - you might, I'd call you a bad friend if you did that. It's the same principle here - you look after your allies. If you appease loonies, it fuels their agenda and makes them stronger until ultimately it's too late. I don't really know what's too hard comprehend here. I understand all countries have their own domestic problems, but there's an incredible lack of foresight in a lot of these views as the world problems, become lots of people's problems eventually and you can't just block things out and pretend stuff isn't happening.

 

I think what you're inferring to is somewhere under there is, it's OK to be under a dictatorship if people want it. Which is a fair point, but you'll find in a lot of these countries people don't want to be under a dictatorship, but with state control and oppression you reduce these voices and people live their lives in fear. It's why even though I am sympathetic to the diversity & inclusion cull to a point, as undoubtedly those schemes push unconscious biases, however you do need a fair & representative process to not marginalise any candidates who may be at a percieved disadvantage. But the Trump administration will only recruit workers who are 'MAGA' loyal going forwards - this is not fair recruitment and it is sewing the seeds for an undemocratic America in the future.

 

Ultimately everybody wants this war to end, but the fantastic negotiater Trump has brokered the worst deal I have ever seen which rewards the abusers and hurts the victims. That is not how you negotiate peace.

I really don't see the point in reading beyond a claim that we should feel sorry for Putin because of the demise of Assad's despotic regime.

I really don't see the point in reading beyond a claim that we should feel sorry for Putin because of the demise of Assad's despotic regime.

 

Eh think you totally missed the point as that wasn’t it at all.

 

Ah yes Liam, the well-known fantastical left wing Musk & Trump :lol:

 

I find this "it's not our fight" is so naive and ultimately comes back to bite everyone on your ass. If your friends were being beaten up by some random idiot would you sit back and be like "not my fight mate, you take those punches" - you might, I'd call you a bad friend if you did that. It's the same principle here - you look after your allies. If you appease loonies, it fuels their agenda and makes them stronger until ultimately it's too late. I don't really know what's too hard comprehend here. I understand all countries have their own domestic problems, but there's an incredible lack of foresight in a lot of these views as the world problems, become lots of people's problems eventually and you can't just block things out and pretend stuff isn't happening.

 

 

Ultimately everybody wants this war to end, but the fantastic negotiater Trump has brokered the worst deal I have ever seen which rewards the abusers and hurts the victims. That is not how you negotiate peace.

 

All of them were considered left wing you can add Tulsi(former Democrat senator) and RFJ jr to that too.

 

These analogies are not really good ones. These are complex geopolitical problems involving a world superpower not a random bloke off the street mate. The consequences can be pretty devastating.

 

If people want to end the war they’ve should have shown more urgency in the last few years. Instead they let it drag on. What was naive is this notion Ukraine would ‘win’ I heard that a lot the last three years. Friends and allies don’t encourage them to continue an unwinnable war maybe these countries are anti-Russian more than pro-Ukraine that would explain the disregard for Ukrainian lives.

 

The no deal option is Russia gets more territory and more Ukrainians die, so if Trump’s deal is so bad then where are the EU proposals? So far I’ve heard putting troops on the ground(insanity)

 

yes left wing good right wing bad, glad we're on the same page

 

You keep saying 'well, what can you do, we don't have another solution, we must end the war', when your beloved Trumpian government is approaching the negotiations with the outlook of 'give the invader everything he wants, and let's also spin a narrative that Ukraine are the real bad guys here'. It's not simple peace they're after, it's capitulation - there are many options for peace such as bringing in outside, impartial negotiators (say for the sake of argument, Qatari, like with Israel/Palestine), but the principle reason that hasn't happened yet is because Russia won't want to end the war on anything other than their terms. Which doesn't mean you give into them, because not only is Putin emboldened but every tinpot dictator or democratic backslider from Minsk to Pyongyang to Pretoria will be looking for ways they can try their luck - the international order now says might makes right after all.

 

also it's not relevant to the main discussion but it's a very telling part of your screed... why is multiculturalism bad, exactly?

 

And your approach is to still be stubborn about NATO something that has no hope in hell of ever getting anywhere.

 

Without the US backing Russia will beat Ukraine. Everybody knows this. The US are stating pretty clearly they are not going to keep backing Ukraine. At what point do you make a deal?

 

One of the most off-putting things with the EU is the stubbornness they have no matter how wrong they are and it just seems more of the same. If your stance is that Ukraine should just fight on till the end then okay maybe there are people who think like that but they should just say that and be clearer about it so we know what we are stating. I don’t want to see millions of Ukrainians die to prove a point to Putin.

 

Is what Trump proposing good? Not really, the rare earth mineral stuff sounds even worse. However it’s clear Russia has the upper hand in negotiations and it’s clear the EU would rather be stubborn than look weak by making a deal with Putin. So it seems it’ll be left to Trump to make a deal others can criticise meanwhile they were going to let it drag on for a decade.

 

The countries I’ve been to with a more united cultures Qatar, Japan, Poland all have much happier and cleaner societies with more respect for each other and less crime.

 

Edited February 20Feb 20 by Liam sota

Eh think you totally missed the point as that wasn’t it at all.

 

Russia is a massive threat and you downplay it at your peril.

Never heard Trump called left wing before. Musk was once but he went down the Twitter 'woke mind virus' conspiracy theory rabbit hole after the psychological trauma he endured when disowned by his trans daughter and ex-wife Grimes.

RFK jr has some left leaning ideas but he's such a conspiacy theorist it's kind of forgotten now and he's all over the place.

 

Also, even the the left in the US is right wing compared to most of Europe.

Ah yes Liam, the well-known fantastical left wing Musk & Trump :lol:

 

I find this "it's not our fight" is so naive and ultimately comes back to bite everyone on your ass. If your friends were being beaten up by some random idiot would you sit back and be like "not my fight mate, you take those punches" - you might, I'd call you a bad friend if you did that. It's the same principle here - you look after your allies. If you appease loonies, it fuels their agenda and makes them stronger until ultimately it's too late. I don't really know what's too hard comprehend here. I understand all countries have their own domestic problems, but there's an incredible lack of foresight in a lot of these views as the world problems, become lots of people's problems eventually and you can't just block things out and pretend stuff isn't happening.

 

I think what you're inferring to is somewhere under there is, it's OK to be under a dictatorship if people want it. Which is a fair point, but you'll find in a lot of these countries people don't want to be under a dictatorship, but with state control and oppression you reduce these voices and people live their lives in fear. It's why even though I am sympathetic to the diversity & inclusion cull to a point, as undoubtedly those schemes push unconscious biases, however you do need a fair & representative process to not marginalise any candidates who may be at a percieved disadvantage. But the Trump administration will only recruit workers who are 'MAGA' loyal going forwards - this is not fair recruitment and it is sewing the seeds for an undemocratic America in the future.

 

Ultimately everybody wants this war to end, but the fantastic negotiater Trump has brokered the worst deal I have ever seen which rewards the abusers and hurts the victims. That is not how you negotiate peace.

 

Not sure if the playground analogy, opponents would say America and Ukraine weren’t friends until Russia became their enemy 😂

Well no, I mean it’s objectively a fact too that Russia has struggled to make much headway. They’ve lost Assad and are having to resort to bolstering frontlines with North Korean troops. Yes my view in the future is that they won’t be doing all these things you guys claim but it’s obvious their threat on the ground has been exaggerated. Ukraine are outmanned, outgunned and so forth yet they’re holding the line pretty well.

 

This idea we believe in democracy is just sketchy. Indonesia, Egypt, Saudis to state just a few. If a regime is western friendly they’re okay if not suddenly we care about democracy and they have to go. It’s clearly not a truly held belief by most people espousing it.

 

If the genuine belief is that people seeing things different are crazy loonies being fed info by a Putin bot it’s no wonder you are getting so angry this is not reality and propaganda is not restricted to Russia.

 

Blaming Trump for Afghanistan is pretty lazy. This was clearly a widely agreed upon decision. Russia’s invasion was not for no reason it was for financial reasons probably the same reason as the US overall. Let’s not forget the west supported Bin Laden and the Taliban against Russia. It’s a country that had a lot of natural resources. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Israel had bombed the hell out of Lebanon. Bin Laden wanted revenge. America finances and supplies Israel etc etc. Same way the Donbas war was rumbling on for 8 years with Kiev killing many people in Donbas and this ultimately was partly reason for the Russia attack. The IRA was mentioned before and Steve said he supports them as did many Americans yet they bombed innocent people. This is why it’s futile to get involved in the disputes everyone has around the world as there are usually layers and layers and layers of complexity and history to them with everybody feeling they are on the more moral side. Certain times that is clear what that is and other times it is not. Ukraine have murdered journalists( what happened to Gonzalo Lira?)and dissenters and forced people to fight who never wanted to. War brings out the worst people.

 

You cannot see the world in the way you do and see it clearly, numerous terrible decisions were made by left wing governments, numerous wars too. In fact the current Labour Gov is proposing cutting the welfare bill to boost defense spending. You will be very lost if you see things as right wing good left wing bad, most of the guys you mention Musk and Trump were considered left wing much of their life. Did they suddenly become bad people or were they always the same type of person.

 

The real damage is that this utopian democratic multicultural utopia the west is used to selling is a harder sell when most people in these countries aren’t happy. Nobody is comfortable funding democratic missions abroad when there is a big mess at home. Trump won not because of loonies but because of the circumstances people found themselves in.

 

Ultimately I don’t see any solutions.

 

If you disagreed with the decision to leave Afghanistan

 

1. What was your solution? Let soldiers keep losing limbs and being killed?

The Afghan Army clearly wasn’t putting up a fight

2. Did you originally support invading?

 

If you did then ultimately your foresight isn’t as good as you think since it achieved nothing and tons of money and lives were wasted. It’s not our fight. Nobody wants backwards barbarians running a country but you cannot police the world. It’s costly and ultimately it was not possible to win long term.

 

So this conflict is the same.

 

You can keep spending billions to fund Ukraine in a battle they’ll ultimately lose….see hundreds of thousands more die and it all will be for nothing.

 

Or? What’s your actual solution? Much like the EU there isn’t one. Nobody has a solution. The other solution is all out war with Russia are you happy with that one? Personally I don’t think the UK should risk being involved in world war 3 due to Donbas.

 

So the only sensible solution is to talk, make a deal and if this was done earlier then maybe Ukraine would be in a better position and they wouldn’t be getting fleeced from all angles. The world is supposed to advance and evolve. War rarely ever brings good results that’s why the crucial time is before it starts. Yet when that was happening everyone said Putin is bluffing just ignore him more empty Russian threats. Now everybody thinks they’re about to invade everywhere.

 

You sound like the people appeasing Germany in the 1930s :lol: They just want the Sudentenland. They just want Austria. They speak Germany there anyway! They just want a PART of Chezcoslovakia. They'll stop there!

Trump is good actually and really left-wing because he’s blackmailing Ukraine to choose life over freedom. Lots of humanity there but it really is a COMPLEX GEOPOLITICAL ISSUE!!1 so it’s okay. Let them just die, it’s ukraines fault.

 

Got it.

Edited February 21Feb 21 by p a v

Eh think you totally missed the point as that wasn’t it at all.

All of them were considered left wing you can add Tulsi(former Democrat senator) and RFJ jr to that too.

 

By who?

 

One of the most off-putting things with the EU is the stubbornness they have no matter how wrong they are and it just seems more of the same.

 

Pot, meet kettle

And your approach is to still be stubborn about NATO something that has no hope in hell of ever getting anywhere.

 

Without the US backing Russia will beat Ukraine. Everybody knows this. The US are stating pretty clearly they are not going to keep backing Ukraine. At what point do you make a deal?

 

One of the most off-putting things with the EU is the stubbornness they have no matter how wrong they are and it just seems more of the same. If your stance is that Ukraine should just fight on till the end then okay maybe there are people who think like that but they should just say that and be clearer about it so we know what we are stating. I don’t want to see millions of Ukrainians die to prove a point to Putin.

 

Is what Trump proposing good? Not really, the rare earth mineral stuff sounds even worse. However it’s clear Russia has the upper hand in negotiations and it’s clear the EU would rather be stubborn than look weak by making a deal with Putin. So it seems it’ll be left to Trump to make a deal others can criticise meanwhile they were going to let it drag on for a decade.

 

The countries I’ve been to with a more united cultures Qatar, Japan, Poland all have much happier and cleaner societies with more respect for each other and less crime.

 

It isn't being stubborn to hold to something that should be a reasonable expectation of security. The EU leaders are right and acting sensibly, it's Trump who's coming out with nonsense statements that don't reflect reality.

 

Europe can absolutely defend Ukraine against Russia without the US if necessary, they contribute more than the US after all, but it would require a lot more economic effort - something that perhaps is worth it to defend democracy. Your language, like all Russian apologists, removes all accountability and blame from Russia because you cannot defend invading a sovereign state, which is what they have done. Russia should withdraw with absolutely nothing.

 

But of course, you'll say that's 'reality' and they won't withdraw because they have the upper hand. Who gave them the upper hand in those negotiations? The traitorous, idiotic president tearing up decades of White House diplomacy to do... I don't know what. How does any of this play long-term? I can't see any way that this doesn't lead to a conflict in the future once the aberration is gone from the White House and America has an anti-Russian president again, nor will Russia be welcomed back into the international fold having unlawfully stolen parts of Ukraine.

 

I don't think you have been paying any attention to the opinions of Ukrainians or EU leaders if you think they are going to accept and recognise a treaty that is signed without Ukraine's involvement. Perhaps the US and Russia have enough between them to make most other nations around the world accept and recognise it, but peace.... to quote Tacitus, 'where they make a desert, they call it peace'.

 

~

 

Not really sure a slave state, sorry, migrant labourer heavy state like Qatar is one you want to be touting as a victory for the ethnostates. Japan through isolation I'll grant you, but they are starting to recognise the need for immigrants, Poland isn't too different to the UK across various levels of crime or cleanliness. Principled opposition to multiculturalism I do find weird though, the statistics don't really shake out, it's interesting living in a country with so many from different backgrounds and people are people no matter where they're from.

Well no, I mean it’s objectively a fact too that Russia has struggled to make much headway. They’ve lost Assad and are having to resort to bolstering frontlines with North Korean troops. Yes my view in the future is that they won’t be doing all these things you guys claim but it’s obvious their threat on the ground has been exaggerated. Ukraine are outmanned, outgunned and so forth yet they’re holding the line pretty well.

 

This idea we believe in democracy is just sketchy. Indonesia, Egypt, Saudis to state just a few. If a regime is western friendly they’re okay if not suddenly we care about democracy and they have to go. It’s clearly not a truly held belief by most people espousing it.

 

If the genuine belief is that people seeing things different are crazy loonies being fed info by a Putin bot it’s no wonder you are getting so angry this is not reality and propaganda is not restricted to Russia.

 

Blaming Trump for Afghanistan is pretty lazy. This was clearly a widely agreed upon decision. Russia’s invasion was not for no reason it was for financial reasons probably the same reason as the US overall. Let’s not forget the west supported Bin Laden and the Taliban against Russia. It’s a country that had a lot of natural resources. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Israel had bombed the hell out of Lebanon. Bin Laden wanted revenge. America finances and supplies Israel etc etc. Same way the Donbas war was rumbling on for 8 years with Kiev killing many people in Donbas and this ultimately was partly reason for the Russia attack. The IRA was mentioned before and Steve said he supports them as did many Americans yet they bombed innocent people. This is why it’s futile to get involved in the disputes everyone has around the world as there are usually layers and layers and layers of complexity and history to them with everybody feeling they are on the more moral side. Certain times that is clear what that is and other times it is not. Ukraine have murdered journalists( what happened to Gonzalo Lira?)and dissenters and forced people to fight who never wanted to. War brings out the worst people.

 

You cannot see the world in the way you do and see it clearly, numerous terrible decisions were made by left wing governments, numerous wars too. In fact the current Labour Gov is proposing cutting the welfare bill to boost defense spending. You will be very lost if you see things as right wing good left wing bad, most of the guys you mention Musk and Trump were considered left wing much of their life. Did they suddenly become bad people or were they always the same type of person.

 

The real damage is that this utopian democratic multicultural utopia the west is used to selling is a harder sell when most people in these countries aren’t happy. Nobody is comfortable funding democratic missions abroad when there is a big mess at home. Trump won not because of loonies but because of the circumstances people found themselves in.

 

Ultimately I don’t see any solutions.

 

If you disagreed with the decision to leave Afghanistan

 

1. What was your solution? Let soldiers keep losing limbs and being killed?

The Afghan Army clearly wasn’t putting up a fight

2. Did you originally support invading?

 

If you did then ultimately your foresight isn’t as good as you think since it achieved nothing and tons of money and lives were wasted. It’s not our fight. Nobody wants backwards barbarians running a country but you cannot police the world. It’s costly and ultimately it was not possible to win long term.

 

So this conflict is the same.

 

You can keep spending billions to fund Ukraine in a battle they’ll ultimately lose….see hundreds of thousands more die and it all will be for nothing.

 

Or? What’s your actual solution? Much like the EU there isn’t one. Nobody has a solution. The other solution is all out war with Russia are you happy with that one? Personally I don’t think the UK should risk being involved in world war 3 due to Donbas.

 

So the only sensible solution is to talk, make a deal and if this was done earlier then maybe Ukraine would be in a better position and they wouldn’t be getting fleeced from all angles. The world is supposed to advance and evolve. War rarely ever brings good results that’s why the crucial time is before it starts. Yet when that was happening everyone said Putin is bluffing just ignore him more empty Russian threats. Now everybody thinks they’re about to invade everywhere.

First off im not claiming democracy is perfect and neither are elected politicians all they are is less bad and democracy is the least bad system.

 

This tit for tat view of history is utterly pointless. Go back 2000 years and jews were in the middle east and islam didnt exist and atrocities have been committed by everyone in thst region and beyond ever since. Not to mention waves of invasions and atrocities. Plenty of blame for all concerned to go round including the UK. The key objective is HOW DO YOU STOP FURTHER ATROCITIES AND VIRTUAL ENSLAVEMENTS OF POPULATIONS. You do that by making sure people who hate democracy and love themselves dont get into power because the idea of a benign dictator is a contradiction in terms.

 

You also look into the future and assess whatever action you take us likely to lead to whatever consequences and most people as i explained at length are shit at this. Or they just dont care - which is the human race and its history in a nutshell.

 

I have a zero tolerance for killing. But i equally recognise that rolling over is also not a solution. And prople currenyly tolerating seig heils from the architects of Trumps elections following Russian propaganda over a decade are not the honest brokers some deluded people think they are. And my view has been proved right by events. I try not to say I Told You So cos nobody likes a smart arse.

 

Propaganda is distortion and lies. Democracy is the open availability of facts. The internet has caused the alternstive facts and one sidedness to be the norm. In a sane democracy you can provide facts about anything. Thats the point of it. Once you lose that its not a democracy and all you pump out is selected propaganda with enough facts to mske it look real and the masses just blindly swallow it.

 

Putin is a murderer and mass killer. He is not a trustworthy man thats a fact. Supported by actual deaths. Russia is not a democracy and he aint going anywhere. At least in a democracy you can get rid of the twats who f*** up and who dont speak for everyone doing whatever they do. Putin only spesks to the oligarchs who dont force him out. This system is being currently developed and organised in the USA. 2 years time we will see how successful it is looking to be. 4 years it will be done so its not as we have long to wait and see if democrats can successfully dump the wannabe tyrant or if he gets what he has always wanted.

 

Note: ifvhe doesnt retain power he Musk and all his cronies have committed acts against the constitution and will all go to prison barring self pardons so they kind of have a self interest to not have democracy now.

 

Note: using death as an excuse to give into aggressors is totally playing into their hands. Defending yourself from military invasion is not aggression. The invader is the aggressor. I would say irs not rocket science but of course these days it is rocket based.

First off im not claiming democracy is perfect and neither are elected politicians all they are is less bad and democracy is the least bad system.

 

Note: using death as an excuse to give into aggressors is totally playing into their hands. Defending yourself from military invasion is not aggression. The invader is the aggressor. I would say irs not rocket science but of course these days it is rocket based.

 

If we have such a honourable democracy then let’s test it out. How about each country being forced to pay for this war lets people vote on it. UK citizens get to vote on whether they want to spend billions more funding Ukraine in a losing battle or do they want it spent on UK needs. I think we know the result of this vote. Partly Trump’s win was that vote in itself. Democracy has spoken in a way. It wants the war to end.

 

Using death as an excuse? So the alternative? It’s a pretty odd stance when you word death as an inconvenience to your face-off with Putin. There is an option to save thousands of lives and end a war and that option is more appealing than the never-ending alternative with no real direction or goal or means to win.

 

Russia are not honest brokers? Ok but who the hell is? Ukraine? Didn’t they blow up a pipeline and blame it on Russia, is Trump an honest broker? Don’t tell me you think the EU is?

 

The war has to end and IF everyone can accept that THEN everyone can work towards getting the best deal for Ukraine. But it seems some people would rather prolong the conflict than admit defeat on certain things such as NATO for Ukraine.

 

Best case scenario. Russia keeps Crimea and Donbas. Europe writes off Ukraine’s debt. They reach a sensible and not mafia type deal with the US to pay them back. They get proper security guarantees without NATO or anything threatening to Russia. Russia obviously know such conflicts will cost them trillions and hundreds of lives to get pretty much nowhere. That’s the best deal for all concerned. The EU is full of stubborn over educated simpletons who won’t work towards that and they’ll put Ukraine in a position where they get fleeced by the US or obliterated by Russia then they’ll sit back and talk like moral guardians of the world criticising both Trump and Russia when they were the main obstacle to peace from start to finish. Of course you keep the option to continue the conflict if Russia have no concessions and show no willingness to budge but I’m pretty sure they want a route out of this stalemate too.

 

Europe can absolutely defend Ukraine against Russia without the US if necessary, they contribute more than the US after all, but it would require a lot more economic effort - something that perhaps is worth it to defend democracy. Your language, like all Russian apologists, removes all accountability and blame from Russia because you cannot defend invading a sovereign state, which is what they have done. Russia should withdraw with absolutely nothing.

 

But of course, you'll say that's 'reality' and they won't withdraw because they have the upper hand. Who gave them the upper hand in those negotiations? The traitorous, idiotic president tearing up decades of White House diplomacy to do... I don't know what. How does any of this play long-term? I can't see any way that this doesn't lead to a conflict in the future once the aberration is gone from the White House and America has an anti-Russian president again, nor will Russia be welcomed back into the international fold having unlawfully stolen parts of Ukraine.

 

I don't think you have been paying any attention to the opinions of Ukrainians or EU leaders if you think they are going to accept and recognise a treaty that is signed without Ukraine's involvement. Perhaps the US and Russia have enough between them to make most other nations around the world accept and recognise it, but peace.... to quote Tacitus, 'where they make a desert, they call it peace'.

 

~

 

Not really sure a slave state, sorry, migrant labourer heavy state like Qatar is one you want to be touting as a victory for the ethnostates. Japan through isolation I'll grant you, but they are starting to recognise the need for immigrants, Poland isn't too different to the UK across various levels of crime or cleanliness. Principled opposition to multiculturalism I do find weird though, the statistics don't really shake out, it's interesting living in a country with so many from different backgrounds and people are people no matter where they're from.

 

Ukrainians opinions vary. And it’s hard to judge. War is an inflammatory time. Also nobody wants to believe their people died for nothing. US isn’t just money and weapons but they have a huge amount of anti-missiles that is maybe the main reason Russia can’t just blitz Ukraine. Europe could try but it’d be very costly and cause upheaval within those country and lose Ukraine a lot of support within those populations. There was an optimum time to make a deal but nobody showed an interest in making one. Now Russia have the upper hand not because of traitors but because of the situation on the ground.

 

Starting to realise the need for immigrants is lowkey dogma though I mean Japan has existed for how long? They’ve been a great culture and country for how long? But now they NEED immigrants? Huh. They have population issues but the causes and solutions don’t have to be related to immigrants. Nothing is absolutes. Migration has existed forever. The point is the scale at a point where it leads to a disgruntled society without any coherent identity is clearly negative and at this point overwhelmingly obvious and it just leads to extremes. You saw with the lines Britain drew throughout the Arab world created decades and decades of conflicts and violence. They didn’t understand you can’t just do that without any knowledge of sectarianism or disputes or ramifications. And yet in a different way it’s just the same thing again.

 

Edited February 22Feb 22 by Liam sota

If we have such a honourable democracy then let’s test it out. How about each country being forced to pay for this war lets people vote on it. UK citizens get to vote on whether they want to spend billions more funding Ukraine in a losing battle or do they want it spent on UK needs. I think we know the result of this vote. Partly Trump’s win was that vote in itself. Democracy has spoken in a way. It wants the war to end.

 

Simple dumb populist/man down the pub, 'let's have a vote on it' suggestion, I should just stop reading here. But I won't. You've phrased the description of such an issue in a way that would never make it past the first screening of any reputable poll company, let alone a voting commission. Fortunately we have a poll on the very issue which gives us an idea of the actual levels of such support in the UK.

 

@1892512828579615067

 

That's just one question on a broader theme, but it's clearly a majority support the levels of funding we are giving to Ukraine - should that number increase, they might be reticent with only 24% saying 'more' but that is such a hypothetical right now that saying 'I think we know the result of this vote' is stupid, given the incredible cross-party support to Ukraine that is almost unanimous among MPs and the public. Except those Reform scammers, I notice with annoyance that after hearing idiotic braying from them on every other subject, they're suspiciously quiet on Ukraine. But even then Reform voters are split.

 

so shove right off out of here with 'democracy has spoken'. Even in the US, the Republicans have been split on whether to aid Ukraine, Trump is certainly against it, but many Senate and House Republicans were advancing aid packages with no issue up to and during the election.

 

Best case scenario. Russia keeps Crimea and Donbas. Europe writes off Ukraine’s debt. They reach a sensible and not mafia type deal with the US to pay them back. They get proper security guarantees without NATO or anything threatening to Russia. Russia obviously know such conflicts will cost them trillions and hundreds of lives to get pretty much nowhere. That’s the best deal for all concerned. The EU is full of stubborn over educated simpletons who won’t work towards that and they’ll put Ukraine in a position where they get fleeced by the US or obliterated by Russia then they’ll sit back and talk like moral guardians of the world criticising both Trump and Russia when they were the main obstacle to peace from start to finish. Of course you keep the option to continue the conflict if Russia have no concessions and show no willingness to budge but I’m pretty sure they want a route out of this stalemate too.

 

This is a relatively acceptable scenario, and I see no reason the EU leaders wouldn't accept that in the short term given how Trump's torpedoed anything better. Long-term, it will only cause issues as new generations of leaders take power and want to reassert their preferences. The only correct way to sort the fate of these territories for good, other than Ukraine just keeping them as is their sovereign right, which is what they should do, is an actual honest-to-goodness 'let's have a vote' plebiscite (you do this for important constitutional changes) that is administered by the international community, without any military force and accepted by both the Russian and Ukrainian state.

If we have such a honourable democracy then let’s test it out. How about each country being forced to pay for this war lets people vote on it. UK citizens get to vote on whether they want to spend billions more funding Ukraine in a losing battle or do they want it spent on UK needs. I think we know the result of this vote. Partly Trump’s win was that vote in itself. Democracy has spoken in a way. It wants the war to end.

 

Using death as an excuse? So the alternative? It’s a pretty odd stance when you word death as an inconvenience to your face-off with Putin. There is an option to save thousands of lives and end a war and that option is more appealing than the never-ending alternative with no real direction or goal or means to win.

 

Russia are not honest brokers? Ok but who the hell is? Ukraine? Didn’t they blow up a pipeline and blame it on Russia, is Trump an honest broker? Don’t tell me you think the EU is?

 

The war has to end and IF everyone can accept that THEN everyone can work towards getting the best deal for Ukraine. But it seems some people would rather prolong the conflict than admit defeat on certain things such as NATO for Ukraine.

 

Best case scenario. Russia keeps Crimea and Donbas. Europe writes off Ukraine’s debt. They reach a sensible and not mafia type deal with the US to pay them back. They get proper security guarantees without NATO or anything threatening to Russia. Russia obviously know such conflicts will cost them trillions and hundreds of lives to get pretty much nowhere. That’s the best deal for all concerned. The EU is full of stubborn over educated simpletons who won’t work towards that and they’ll put Ukraine in a position where they get fleeced by the US or obliterated by Russia then they’ll sit back and talk like moral guardians of the world criticising both Trump and Russia when they were the main obstacle to peace from start to finish. Of course you keep the option to continue the conflict if Russia have no concessions and show no willingness to budge but I’m pretty sure they want a route out of this stalemate too.

 

Lmaooo I'll take, leading poll questions, for 500, abob!!

 

The electoral commission would never allow your far right, ridiculous question on a ballot. Ever. Btw, ask that question about nukes, or UK owned satellites, or anything. The answer would always, always be the same when phrased like that lmaooo. "Should the UK pay for the monarchy or spend it on its own needs?" Boom, monarchy gone, etc etc. RIDICULOUS :lol:

 

Russia is the UK's oldest geopolitical rival. Defending democracy and degrading Russia's capabilities are a MASSIVE win for the UK's needs snd interests. Sorry. The West should have forced Russia out immediately, like Russia and China did in North Korea Vs America... but it's ok for Russia to do that, but not the West... Right?

Simple dumb populist/man down the pub, 'let's have a vote on it' suggestion, I should just stop reading here. But I won't. You've phrased the description of such an issue in a way that would never make it past the first screening of any reputable poll company, let alone a voting commission. Fortunately we have a poll on the very issue which gives us an idea of the actual levels of such support in the UK.

 

@1892512828579615067

 

That's just one question on a broader theme, but it's clearly a majority support the levels of funding we are giving to Ukraine - should that number increase, they might be reticent with only 24% saying 'more' but that is such a hypothetical right now that saying 'I think we know the result of this vote' is stupid, given the incredible cross-party support to Ukraine that is almost unanimous among MPs and the public. Except those Reform scammers, I notice with annoyance that after hearing idiotic braying from them on every other subject, they're suspiciously quiet on Ukraine. But even then Reform voters are split.

 

so shove right off out of here with 'democracy has spoken'. Even in the US, the Republicans have been split on whether to aid Ukraine, Trump is certainly against it, but many Senate and House Republicans were advancing aid packages with no issue up to and during the election.

This is a relatively acceptable scenario, and I see no reason the EU leaders wouldn't accept that in the short term given how Trump's torpedoed anything better. Long-term, it will only cause issues as new generations of leaders take power and want to reassert their preferences. The only correct way to sort the fate of these territories for good, other than Ukraine just keeping them as is their sovereign right, which is what they should do, is an actual honest-to-goodness 'let's have a vote' plebiscite (you do this for important constitutional changes) that is administered by the international community, without any military force and accepted by both the Russian and Ukrainian state.

 

You said the same as me!! It is the most ridiculous suggestion I've ever seen on here, ever, and he thinks he is politically savvy for saying, let's have a vote with this question!!! :rofl: vrofl: My god! What twitter posts is he reading?!

Alsoooo, the UK has never ruled by plebiscite. It is a parliamentary democracy.

Yeah Liam that "let's have a vote" is ridiculous. :lol: If we applied the same logic to everything people would say no.

 

I think the argument that Ukraine won't win the war so they should give up is such a weak one. By that logic if any larger state invades a smaller one, should they just give up? The loss of life is pointless, of coruse it is, but Russia can't face a war forever - they are running out of money, their economy is in the tatters and they are needing to conscript new recruits. At some point they would give up and come to the negotiating table. I think what has really pissed off most people is Trump has his his small dick energy to think he could end the war in days.. peace deals take a long time to thrash out. It's not an episode of Shark Tank or Dragon's Den where you can just present an offer and its a take it or leave it.. it's why this administration will ultimately come unstuck as I don't think it is possible to run foreign policy or a state as a business.

 

Everyone should watch that Newsnight interview with the head of MI6 (I suspect a few of us not lurching to the Far Right already have..) - clear as mud what the state of play is and what Russia see as a longer strategy post war.