I agree about her directing her own biopic. I wish it was not in her hands.

 

Even if she does a good job , she will be panned !!

See I think there is a lot of flaws in this tbh...

 

1. Like a prayer was certainly a controversial and experimental album with the gospel sounds and the Christian imagery but that was a massive success, again with I'm Breathless the concept album sound was experimental and a big success despite only have a couple of singles to promote it.

 

2. Erotica and Bedtime stories were hardly broken sales, yes they didn't reach the heights of LAV / True Blue sales but then nothing actually has since then and I struggle to think of any artist in history who has had all their albums sell 10-20million plus so it's only natural sales will descrease.

 

3. Both Ray of light and Music are great artistic albums and she really experimented with her sound.

 

4. Hard Candy being accessible music is true - aka trend following rather than setting - but actually album sales were very similar to American Life's sales so the accessible argument doesn't work there if we are saying American Life's experimental sales showed the effects of experimental music. She actually got more high peaking hits in that era than she did in the Hard Candy era too...

 

I do agree than MDNA did a lot of damage to Madonna though. That combined with her public perception of not being reliable for concerts (and the many fans she will have turned off... remember she does stadiums that cater to 80k+ crowds) and then interviews which don't help her public persona of course she is going to struggle.

 

1. I can see why you don't agree but Like a Prayer as a single was also a huge pop song, it's easily one of her most commercial sounding songs - the message and the video in particular may have been a little controversial but the song itself is out and out pop. The following singles were also pretty much out and out pop, even if Express Yourself had an unusual message (for the time) of female empowerment. I'm Breathless was an oddity as the single was essentially Vogue, which of course was nothing like the rest of the album. I've personally got a huge soft spot for the album.

 

2. They sold less than half (if not less than a third) of her typical sales by that point, I think that constitutes a drastic fall off in sales?

 

3. I think Ray of Light had some very strong pop moments - but as I mentioned, it's the time when her personality and her image was most relatable and the reviews were exceptional. Music I think is experimental in a way but it's definitely rooted in pop music.

 

4. Nothing on American Life did well really. She may have got a couple of #2 (I think?) singles but they were very much first week success singles in the same way as McFly maintained #1 singles without really releasing anything that was truly a big hit, nothing with any longevity at all. 4 Minutes was waaayyyy bigger than anything from American Life.

 

 

That said, I don't think we disagree too much tbh. Despite the length of my post, I was largely just thinking or typing out loud. I think my main point is that it's her music that sells, not her personality, so she won't have that element of likability that the likes of Kylie has. I'd be amazed if she ever has another huge selling album again but I wouldn't rule out her getting a number one at some point this decade.

 

I do agree with some of you who are referring to her personality having more a negative impact now than it would have done previously. We're going through very different times these days where social media and cancel culture etc can dominate public perception and things like keeping fans waiting for hours and not having a personality that comes across well on social media etc is definitely more damaging now than it would have been back in the 90s and 00s.

 

One of the points I don't agree with in the general thread chat though is that she should change her approach to touring. Album tours to me have always been predominately about touring the album - I don't particularly like this expectation these days that older more successful acts should just be wheeling out their greatest hits at every opportunity when the tour is about their new music that they believe in... often these acts are pretty much no longer making music and just keeping an income by constantly peddling out their biggest hits in a series of concerts over a decade where pretty much every one is the same. Don't get me wrong, I would totally flock to a Madonna greatest hits style tour but I'd definitely like to see her keep her smaller venue tours for new album material and reinvented older tracks that fit the theme.

Regarding the touring, Rebel Heart and Madame X have been her two most critically acclaimed since Confessions at least. Some quotes:

 

Rebel Heart:

 

"The most shocking aspect of the tour was not the provocative imagery and performances, but that Madonna appeared in a light mood and was smiling all throughout." (New York Daily News)

"The show shared a sense of self-confidence and a sense of play" (Montreal Gazzette)

"An affirmation that there is simply no other performer like her. Tonight, Madonna kills it" (The Guardian)

"She hasn't reached so far onstage, musically or emotionally, since her 2001 Drowned World extravaganza." (Rolling Stone)

"She showcased her years of creative vision and onstage expertise to deliver an arena show packed with visual variety, thematic theatrics and inventive instrumentation to refresh even her earliest hits" (Hollywood Reporter)

 

Madame X:

 

"As both album and show, "Madame X" is Madonna's latest declaration of a defiant, self-assured, flexible identity that's entirely comfortable with dualities. Yes, she is 61, but her music remains determinedly contemporary." (New York Times)

"Madonna has never shied away from taking chances. Thirty years after she set fire to the Eighties with the disco basilica Like a Prayer, she's as gloriously weird as ever. Hence her excellent new Madame X tour, a testament to the genius in her madness." (Rolling Stone)

"Pop’s ultimate freedom fighter putting on one of the most powerful, empowering, and stunning gigs of the year." (NME)

 

 

A friend of mine saw the show twice in Paris and agrees totally. So, I don't think she has ANY reason to change her approach tbh.

 

Also, watch this video from 1h15 onwards and you can see the appreciation of Rebel Heart:

Edited November 15, 20204 yr by Sour Candy

I don't see how features on her albums diminish her output as a solo artist? Maluma is a PERFECT match for Medellin which is a song about a town in Colombia. Anitta is PERFECT for Faz Gostoso, Batukadeiras Orchestra are PERFECT for Batuka.

 

Kylie had Gente de Zona and Jack Savoretti on her previous album too. (Madame X has also done BETTER in streaming than Golden, if you want to compare the two.)

 

It seems that I'm the only one who sees her attempts to create new as a positive thing, opposed to people who want her to re-record her OLD songs

 

They do fit the songs but I think Madonna chose young artists who are up and coming to the English language market to try and appeal to a new fanbase and try and look cool with the Latin music market. With Kylie Jack Savoretti for example isn’t gonna win over a new audience but he’d appeal to her existing fans.

They do fit the songs but I think Madonna chose young artists who are up and coming to the English language market to try and appeal to a new fanbase and try and look cool with the Latin music market. With Kylie Jack Savoretti for example isn’t gonna win over a new audience but he’d appeal to her existing fans.

 

I don't think that at all. It was clear from all of her interviews that part of the inspiration behind Madame X was down to her moving to live in Portugal and it seems only right that she made an album that reflected her own life and influences at that point. The idea that she did it "to look cool" is a bit of a leap, especially as a lot of the album isn't at all directed at anything that could be called a current trend.

Madame X was my favourite album by her since Confessions. It’s leagues ahead of Hard Candy, MDNA and Rebel Heart. But I think she chose the singles from the album quite poorly.

 

To do Eurovision with Quavo and not use it to make a statement by doing something like God Control was crazy!

 

God Control and I Don’t Search I Find should’ve been the first two singles from the album. Maluma I’d say is her best recent collaborator though as there is at least a feel to the songs they did together that they have chemistry. Quavo however was a baffling choice to work with and everything she did with Nicki was horrific. I do think Madonna works better as a solo artist though.

I too think she works better as a solo artist. Or at least in terms of performing the songs anyway, I think she's at her absolute best when she forms a good bond with a producer and the two of them create an entire project.

Yeah. I knew some people wouldn't like those comments on her tours...lol.

 

I'm not meaning to be totally negative. I actually really enjoyed the show. I'm a longtime fan, and I know the catalogue. So. I'll probably have a good time no matter what she trots out.

 

But I'm talking about general ticket buyers here. If you were doing a dissection of the Rebel Heart tour...the general public doesn't know the first four songs...then they get a little snippet of Vogue. Another three songs they don't know. True Blue on a ukulele. The main moments that felt full-on...where hit songs were played to their full potential were Music, Material Girl, and Holiday. (Deeper and Deeper was actually my favorite moment...but my perception is that it's better known by fans than the GP in the US). The reviews from publications are good because the shows are technically excellent. I'm just reporting back what I experienced. I was smiling as I left the show. But a lot of people around me were miffed over it starting three hours late...and confused why half of what they heard was songs they didn't know.

 

And yes, many artists focus on their current album on tour. But they're artists who are still a force on the charts. Whether it's fair or not, M's on her third album that's been largely ignored by the GP (despite good first week chartings for the albums). Those legacy artists who play the hits know doing so is their longevity as a touring act. It's good business to do that. Is there another artist of M's stature and career longevity who doesn't? Honestly, name one. She's a legend, and she can do what she wants. I'll try to be there any time she tours close by. But we have to entertain the notion that her playing theaters instead of stadiums and arenas might not actually be by choice.

 

 

I have been following this thread and loving the engagament and debate about all of these issues!

 

I too think she works better as a solo artist. Or at least in terms of performing the songs anyway, I think she's at her absolute best when she forms a good bond with a producer and the two of them create an entire project.

To answer the OP, I think this is a major ingredient in bringing people back on board because it would mean the music is authentic and true which is what made the world fall in love with her time and time again.

 

There is so much at play over the past decade or so that has meant her star power has faded in terms of her recent musical outputs. There is so much disdain towards her from the general public, it will be a huge task to overcome. The biopic can do some work towards that, but as mentioned, as it's directed by her, who knows what sort of lens the film will be viewed through. It will be honest to her experiences, but it's a no-brainer that someone else with more directorial expertise should help to steer the helm in the right direction and give us fans what we really want from this.

 

She is a legend and always will be - no female will ever be able to accomplish what she has over the decades, mainly because for many records she was the FIRST and so it's impossible to replicate that. I just hope the next decade is similarly as legendary and not damaging to her name. We shall see~

Legend or not though, and whatever we think of the music, there is simply NO excuses for the atrocious timings and tardiness at her recent tours. That's just pure disrespectful to the fans, especially her attitude to them reacting back!

The biopic probably has the best chance of improving the general public's view of her as anything. Whether it turns out amazing or terrible, this will be a permanent part of her legacy...and that's why it's so important the right team brings it to life.

 

As I mentioned before, a Diablo Cody screenplay was the right first step. I honestly don't think there's anyone better for the job. I realize there's something a bit interesting about a director basically creating an autobiographical film. But. While I think it's a good idea for M to be around as a consultant, I think there's something to be said for an impartial voice being involved. The surviving members of Queen famously wanted Freddie to die midway through Bohemian Rhapsody...and have the second half show the band soldiering on without him. The public would have hated that film. But impartial voices created the film that became an enormous hit. Considering M's disdain for public expectations, she could be setting this up for major disappointment. Plus...while she's an artist, I'm not sure her aesthetic choices in recent years will make for a particularly liked film. God forbid the song performances in this thing end up as the unwatchable chaos that is her tour DVDs.

 

I keep harping on it, but Patty Jenkins is the woman for the job. Female director. She did gritty with Charlize Theron in Monster. She did a commercial hit with Wonder Woman. She's just the right person to balance the combo of edgy and commercial that has been the best known moments of M's career.

Legend or not though, and whatever we think of the music, there is simply NO excuses for the atrocious timings and tardiness at her recent tours. That's just pure disrespectful to the fans, especially her attitude to them reacting back!

 

A side note about this. I've known people who have worked the production of her tours...and they've said the late shows are because M insists on two-hour mic checks. They've told me she's the only act in the biz who does this.

 

I only halfway follow the logic of that. When I saw her, a DJ opened...and then we all sat there for another two-and-a-half hours waiting. She wasn't doing a mic check during all that time? But maybe the long mic checks delay other things getting done in prep? Beats me.

But do we really expect her to have big album sales or sold out tours or what? She's over 60, she definitely is not going to have any hits on singles charts! Her songs might occasionally appear on Spotify charts for whatever reason and biopic should help there but what would really change if the GP loves her again? That she sells out a 40k stadium instead of 25k arena (what she did with Rebel Heart with ease)?

 

(Agree about her being late every time though, I don't get why she does that. Everyone starts an hour late but not three)

 

I think her greatest hits albums selling as well as the likes of Queen's, MJ's etc is what is expected given how much of a legend she is. But maybe, and I hate even saying this, but that is what happens after an artist's passing moreso? But regardless, in this streaming age, her greatest hits are still behind the other acts of her icon status so the biopic can hopefully help with that!

I think her greatest hits albums selling as well as the likes of Queen's, MJ's etc is what is expected given how much of a legend she is. But maybe, and I hate even saying this, but that is what happens after an artist's passing moreso? But regardless, in this streaming age, her greatest hits are still behind the other acts of her icon status so the biopic can hopefully help with that!

 

I think her being a female artist hurts there? Her GH is definitely the most streamed by a legendary female who is still with us. Whitney's legacy rose a lot when she passed away (which is super sad in a way). I don't expect her GH being in the same league as Queen as long as she's alive and kicking (and long may she be!)

I think her greatest hits albums selling as well as the likes of Queen's, MJ's etc is what is expected given how much of a legend she is. But maybe, and I hate even saying this, but that is what happens after an artist's passing moreso? But regardless, in this streaming age, her greatest hits are still behind the other acts of her icon status so the biopic can hopefully help with that!

 

I’d kinda agree that when someone passes away their back catalogue becomes more valuable and you see them show up in the charts more often.

 

Not even just Greatest Hits albums either. Like Amy Winehouse's Back to Black is always in the top 100 and I’m not convinced it would be there if she was still with us

I have been following this thread and loving the engagament and debate about all of these issues!

I agree, this has been an interesting discussion! :wub:

But do we really expect her to have big album sales or sold out tours or what? She's over 60, she definitely is not going to have any hits on singles charts! Her songs might occasionally appear on Spotify charts for whatever reason and biopic should help there but what would really change if the GP loves her again? That she sells out a 40k stadium instead of 25k arena (what she did with Rebel Heart with ease)?

 

(Agree about her being late every time though, I don't get why she does that. Everyone starts an hour late but not three)

 

That's definitely true that no matter how much the public's perception changes, another hit isn't likely to come. The world is waking up to a lot of injustices...but ageism isn't one of them...and beats me if we'll ever get there. It's not really even part of the discussion.

 

I guess I'd like for her public perception to change for this reason; Despite their career ups and downs, I think the first thing most people think of when they hear the names Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston would be..."great voices" or "great songs". Most people. Their career achievements outweigh the downs in their careers. I think it's getting to the point with Madonna where her downs are outweighing the ups in the public eye...with her name too quickly conjuring the image of a woman in a milk bath giving oddball speeches. And I don't like that for an artist that truly helped shape the modern music landscape...and has so many amazing songs in her vault (many of which carry her writing credit).

 

I'm just hoping for a tour that doesn't come with the added baggage of "...but it went on three hours late" or a biopic without reviews claiming "...Madonna directs unwatchable self-absorbed pity party."

Regarding the touring, Rebel Heart and Madame X have been her two most critically acclaimed since Confessions at least. Some quotes:

 

Rebel Heart:

 

"The most shocking aspect of the tour was not the provocative imagery and performances, but that Madonna appeared in a light mood and was smiling all throughout." (New York Daily News)

"The show shared a sense of self-confidence and a sense of play" (Montreal Gazzette)

"An affirmation that there is simply no other performer like her. Tonight, Madonna kills it" (The Guardian)

"She hasn't reached so far onstage, musically or emotionally, since her 2001 Drowned World extravaganza." (Rolling Stone)

"She showcased her years of creative vision and onstage expertise to deliver an arena show packed with visual variety, thematic theatrics and inventive instrumentation to refresh even her earliest hits" (Hollywood Reporter)

 

Madame X:

 

"As both album and show, "Madame X" is Madonna's latest declaration of a defiant, self-assured, flexible identity that's entirely comfortable with dualities. Yes, she is 61, but her music remains determinedly contemporary." (New York Times)

"Madonna has never shied away from taking chances. Thirty years after she set fire to the Eighties with the disco basilica Like a Prayer, she's as gloriously weird as ever. Hence her excellent new Madame X tour, a testament to the genius in her madness." (Rolling Stone)

"Pop’s ultimate freedom fighter putting on one of the most powerful, empowering, and stunning gigs of the year." (NME)

A friend of mine saw the show twice in Paris and agrees totally. So, I don't think she has ANY reason to change her approach tbh.

 

Also, watch this video from 1h15 onwards and you can see the appreciation of Rebel Heart:

 

 

 

That's you and a friend of yours... both clearly big Madonna fans not the general public....

 

I mean her last album sold what 40k? Rebel Heart less than 100k? MDNA 150k? I mean just one concert date in some of the big stadiums she does caters to all or half of these sales, clearly a lot of people who have not heard the material are going to be bored. They certainly were in Edinburgh Stadium when I went. I knew all the songs so I was singing and dancing but everyone around me was quiet and sat for the majority of the concert... I mean it didn't help she was hours late so she cut the few singles she did have as the venue had to close at 11, I bet none of people around me bought another ticket to see her shows...

 

Elton John tours constantly and he releases albums every other year but he plays his big hits mixed in with a few album tracks, Kylie tours her albums and plays her big hits with some of her album tracks, Cher totally ignores the majority of album tracks :lol: ...

 

The reason I've never been to see Madonna again is not the album tracks I'm cool with it but it is her being so late. It's quite frankly rude and shows her utter disdain for her own fans... I was on minimum wage back then and didn't have much disposable income, it tooks me months to pay off the tickets and the train fare and the hotel and the spending money and she couldn't even be bothered or professional enough to get on stage on time. I didn't get to see a full show yet she kept all her money so unfair. I also didn't buy Rebel Heart or Madame X after that either and I'm a huge Madonna fan... imagine how the casual fans felt.

1. I can see why you don't agree but Like a Prayer as a single was also a huge pop song, it's easily one of her most commercial sounding songs - the message and the video in particular may have been a little controversial but the song itself is out and out pop. The following singles were also pretty much out and out pop, even if Express Yourself had an unusual message (for the time) of female empowerment. I'm Breathless was an oddity as the single was essentially Vogue, which of course was nothing like the rest of the album. I've personally got a huge soft spot for the album.

 

2. They sold less than half (if not less than a third) of her typical sales by that point, I think that constitutes a drastic fall off in sales?

 

3. I think Ray of Light had some very strong pop moments - but as I mentioned, it's the time when her personality and her image was most relatable and the reviews were exceptional. Music I think is experimental in a way but it's definitely rooted in pop music.

 

4. Nothing on American Life did well really. She may have got a couple of #2 (I think?) singles but they were very much first week success singles in the same way as McFly maintained #1 singles without really releasing anything that was truly a big hit, nothing with any longevity at all. 4 Minutes was waaayyyy bigger than anything from American Life.

That said, I don't think we disagree too much tbh. Despite the length of my post, I was largely just thinking or typing out loud. I think my main point is that it's her music that sells, not her personality, so she won't have that element of likability that the likes of Kylie has. I'd be amazed if she ever has another huge selling album again but I wouldn't rule out her getting a number one at some point this decade.

 

I do agree with some of you who are referring to her personality having more a negative impact now than it would have done previously. We're going through very different times these days where social media and cancel culture etc can dominate public perception and things like keeping fans waiting for hours and not having a personality that comes across well on social media etc is definitely more damaging now than it would have been back in the 90s and 00s.

 

One of the points I don't agree with in the general thread chat though is that she should change her approach to touring. Album tours to me have always been predominately about touring the album - I don't particularly like this expectation these days that older more successful acts should just be wheeling out their greatest hits at every opportunity when the tour is about their new music that they believe in... often these acts are pretty much no longer making music and just keeping an income by constantly peddling out their biggest hits in a series of concerts over a decade where pretty much every one is the same. Don't get me wrong, I would totally flock to a Madonna greatest hits style tour but I'd definitely like to see her keep her smaller venue tours for new album material and reinvented older tracks that fit the theme.

 

 

I absolutely love that you list the disagreements but then end with but actually I think we agree on most :wub: :lol:

Edited November 15, 20204 yr by spiceboy