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Thank you Alex, really looking forward to seeing it I take it you will go see it again :P
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    Btw, just wanted to say thanks to Joseph & Philip for unlimited by pages threads nowadays. So I suppose you have already noted now the Better Man thread is combined and not divided anymore :)

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    Better Man review by Bobby Blakey Throughout the years there have been a ton of biographical films focusing on the careers of musicians and bands. Within them there are a select few that took a more

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So, watched the movie yesterday.

Better Man is SO good!!!

 

This is great to hear!

 

I found this post interesting from men's mental health point of view. I had noticed over recent weeks that a lot of the reviews & comments were by men & reading your comment Laura I wonder with your daughter's reaction to the trailer does the movie resonates more with men maybe more than women which is not a bad thing in my opinion as men are not inclined to talk too much about their mental health ... Maybe men can see a bit of themselves in the monkey , Alex in the coming days maybe can enlighten us more about how he felt ;)

 

 

 

@1870635473200206316

Edited by Sydney11

Inside the wild Robbie Williams biopic: ‘It’s sad seeing the monkey do cocaine’

 

Let’s address the simian in the room. Yes, in his new biopic Better Man, Robbie Williams is depicted as a walking, talking chimpanzee. And no, the human Robbie never appears. It is all chimp, all the time. Think Bohemian Rhapsody if it was set at a zoo. Or Planet of the Apes with extra Gary Barlow. But it had to be this way, insists Better Man’s director Michael Gracey, whose previous film was box-office phenomenon The Greatest Showman.

 

“I think you feel more for an animal suffering than you do a human,” Gracey tells me, with characteristically Australian enthusiasm. “There’s nothing glamorous about a monkey doing cocaine. It’s actually a bit sad and uncomfortable. You’re just like… ‘I don’t want to see him doing that’.”

 

Just as you quickly get very used to chimp-Robbie in Better Man, you quickly get used to talking this earnestly to Gracey – in grey hoodie and matching beanie – about one of the strangest musical biopics in history. And it is strange – an anarchic, moving, impeccably well-made blockbuster about a self-destructive pop star as brilliant as he is irritating. And who is also a chimpanzee, played, via some Andy Serkis-esque motion capture, by the British actor Jonno Davies (though Williams provides the singing and the sparky, occasionally ruthlessly catty voiceover).

 

Better Man charts Williams’s wholesome childhood in Stoke-on-Trent and his ascent to pop stardom in Take That, through to his unexpectedly massive solo career and personal implosion in a fog of booze and drugs. It all culminates in 2003 when he plays to more than 375,000 fans at Knebworth Stadium. (His ill-fated 2006 rap album Rudebox, then, is sadly overlooked.) Sometimes the film plays like an absurdist grand guignol; sometimes a flick through an old issue of Smash Hits (“I’m Nicole…” a mysterious brunette tells Robbie at one point, “... Nicole Appleton!”). It’s great fun – and almost improbably so. There is a hallucinatory fight sequence involving dozens of monkey Robbies. An actor in awful Liam Gallagher drag briefly steals the show, and there’s an absolutely sensational musical number set to “Rock DJ” that takes place on London’s Regent Street involving motorcycles, buses and hundreds of extras.

 

But wait a second. Musical biopics endorsed by their subjects are supposed to be terrible, aren’t they? They’re meant to crush decades of music and drama into two hurried hours! They’re meant to win people undeserving Oscars! This one, though, seems to have a lot more on its mind. “I wouldn’t have done it without the monkey,” Gracey says (in the world of Better Man, monkeys and chimps are interchangeable). “For me, the monkey was the only reason to do it.”

 

Gracey had connected with Williams via his Greatest Showman star Hugh Jackman and would go to chat with him in Los Angeles, bringing his tape recorder to hear him talk about his life. There was no real project in mind – Gracey says he does this a lot with creative people, to see if there’s a story there to tell. He was struck by the classic drama in Williams’s history, his dysfunctional relationship with his pub-singer father, his mischief-making, his feuds and failings. “And I noticed how often he’d refer to himself as a performing monkey,” Gracey adds. “He said it enough times that I was like, ooh, this is how he sees himself.”

 

I actually feel more for Gary Barlow while watching the film. He’s putting all this work in and trying to hold the band together while Robbie’s passing out and showing up at performances drunk

 

Michael Gracey

Of course, few were particularly eager to make this version of a Robbie Williams biopic. Gracey had encountered pushback on his films before – he was attached to an early version of the Elton John biopic Rocketman, but financiers balked at funding an occasionally trippy, sex-and-drugs-filled musical by an untested filmmaker. Better Man, though, was an even tougher sell. “And this was absolutely because of the monkey,” he explains. “But I’d also come off the back of The Greatest Showman, so I had a lot more cachet – I felt I could take a bigger creative swing, and luckily people did eventually get on board.”

 

Impressively, he received no pushback from the real people depicted in the film – despite many coming off as different shades of terrible. The early Nineties rise of Take That seems like a misery, the group ferried from gay club to gay club in the back of a van, while being sexualised and belittled by their tyrannical manager Nigel Martin-Smith (“a first class c***” per Williams’ voiceover, a claim they got away with as it’s, legally speaking, just one man’s opinion.) Gary Barlow is also – quelle surprise – depicted as a smug bore, the finger-wagging yin to Williams’s chaotic yang. But Gracey doesn’t quite see it that way.

 

“I actually feel more for Gary while watching the film,” he says. “These are young guys, and Gary [the group’s songwriter] is putting all this work in and trying to hold the band together while Robbie’s passing out and showing up at performances drunk. You feel the frustration because this guy is a massive f***-up.”

Barlow was involved in the film’s production, allowing Gracey to use songs he’s written and looking over the script in advance of shooting. “Rob was really worried,” Gracey remembers. “These guys get on really well at the moment – and I know people go, ‘well, do they really?’, but they actually do. And I think it’s hard for both of them to revisit a time when they were…” Gracey punches his fists together.

 

“You’ve also got to understand – everyone was just doing their best,” he continues. “There was no rule book. There were no guides. No one in Take That sat around and talked about what was happening to them. They were dealing with so much attention and comments and judgement, and really all of them just wanted to be loved.”

 

Appleton, one-fourth of the grungy Nineties pop group All Saints, is an unexpectedly big presence in the film, too – she and Williams dated for several years, during which Appleton fell pregnant. The film makes clear that she was convinced to have an abortion by someone within All Saints’ management, to preserve her fledgling career.

 

“Rob is super protective of Nicole and insisted that I couldn’t tell any of that part of his life unless Nicole was on board,” Gracey remembers. Appleton was sent the script and signed off on everything in it. “Obviously it’s deeply personal, and she was heavily involved – she’d come to rehearsals and I met with her at multiple stages during production.” When she sat down to watch the scene depicting her first meeting with Williams, she cried. “She just said, ‘we were such messy kids and I wouldn’t change it for the world’.”

Because Gracey hadn’t necessarily set out to make a Robbie Williams biopic, I’m curious what he thinks the man himself has taken away from the experience. “I think he’s just surprised – there was no clear expectation on his end when we started chatting that this would be anything, let alone an actual film,” Gracey says. “But now I think he just feels this amazing pride. It’s a vulnerable film, but that’s where its power comes from.”

 

He also thinks it gets to the heart of what fame does to a person. And, somewhat inevitably, it’s because Robbie’s a chimpanzee in it.

 

“When a famous person walks into a room, we can’t help but look at them,” he says. “It doesn’t matter if they’re even talking or not, we’re just transfixed by that person. And that’s why it works so well that he’s a monkey. Even in scenes where Robbie’s not talking, you find yourself just staring at him – oh my god, it’s a monkey! And that? That’s what it’s like to be famous.”

 

‘Better Man’ is in cinemas from 26 December

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/cel...id=BingNewsVerp

Edited by Sydney11

Happy that you saw the movie already, Alex. Could you see the reaction of other viewers?

Thanks Liz!

 

Yes, I did.

 

The audience (400 people) clapped and sat until the end of the credits (Forbidden Road and Feel). All people (50 people) what I've asked, answered me they liked or very liked the movie! Some of them were surprised how good it was.

 

Me personally really don't remember when I watched the movie better for last 6 years - well, I think Green Book (2018), Amsterdam (2023), The Greatest Beer Run Ever (2022), Doctor Sleep (2019), Joker were bigger and cooler.

So, watched the movie yesterday.

Better Man is SO good!!!

 

The movie is full of metaphors, with great casting and with many creative moments. And yes, I got the tears for 2 or 3 times :)

 

I will not say more - waiting for your reaction!

 

 

Look forward to hearing more when everyone has seen it Alex :)

Better Man’ Review: Eccentric, Ape-Centric Robbie Williams Biopic Is Something Beautiful

Let chimpanzee entertain you in a wonderfully bizarre — but still formulaic — musical from the director of “The Greatest Showman”

 

I’d like to invite you behind the curtain for a moment. This is my last new movie review of 2024, and I’ve reviewed so many formulaic musical biopics this year that I’m pretty sure my reviews are also becoming formulaic. How many times can one critic point out that Hollywood is still unironically copying the same tired beats that “Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story” ridiculed nearly 20 years ago before the finger starts pointing back in their own direction? Isn’t it just as tiresome to make the same complaints over and over as it is to do the same things that are worth complaining about, over and over? And over and over?

 

Well, no. No it’s not. I’m just working with the material you’re giving me, Hollywood. If you keep making the same movie over and over, the same commentary will usually apply. If you want me to say something different about the tired musical biopic genre you, yourself, actually have to do something differently. Like, I dunno, making a conventional Robbie Williams biopic where Robbie Williams is played by a computer-generated chimpanzee.

 

Anyway, “Better Man” is a conventional Robbie Williams biopic where Robbie Williams is played by a computer-generated chimpanzee. It’s genuinely amazing how much of a difference that makes. (The ape is mo-capped by Jonno Davies; Williams does his own voice.) I’m pretty sure the filmmakers would like us to be impressed by Williams’ humility in letting himself be literally dehumanized on camera, but that’s not why this works. It works because “Better Man” wears its artifice completely on its sleeve, never once pretending that this is the “real” Robbie Williams story. I’m sure there’s a lot like his real life, but it’s just so much easier to accept a film’s flaws when the film is never quite “real” enough that its fakery can ruin the illusion. Because in “Better Man,” the illusion is that this is the Robbie Williams story at all.

 

 

Williams may need a bit of an introduction to American audiences. He’s one of the best-selling musicians in history, but aside from a handful of noteworthy hit singles, like “Rock DJ” and “Millennium,” he’s never made quite as much of an impression in the States as he has in the United Kingdom and the rest of the world. Some people are put off by his brash celebrity history — a problem most superstars seem to run into eventually, whether they’ve earned it or not — but there are a lot of people who love the hell out of him, and there are a lot of reasons to be a fan.

 

 

“Better Man” takes the “Rocketman” approach to biopics, operating as a conventional musical where characters break into song whether they’re on stage or not. It also isn’t afraid to take Williams’ songs and play them out of order, because the year they were released isn’t necessarily the same time Williams was going through that drama. This frees the movie to tell its story and figure out which songs fit into the narrative organically, instead of twisting the narrative into pretzels just to make sure Williams sings “Rock DJ” in the same year he actually wrote it.

 

The story of his life is in many ways bog standard. He was a child who dreamed about being a star. He had a father, played by Steven Pemberton, who abandoned his family for a chance at extremely modest success as a small-time crooner and master of ceremonies. Williams answered an open call for a boy band, bombed the audition, but realized that you can compensate for your failings on stage by being a cheeky show-off and got the gig anyway. I’m not sure if that’s “good” advice, but it sure is practical because yeah, that generally is how celebrity works.

 

Williams falls prey to clinical depression and alcoholism and gets kicked out of the band, and decides to go solo like he always wanted. But he’s still kind of an ass. Eventually he realizes that what people really respond to isn’t class clowning, it’s sincerity — or at least sincerity tempered with class clowning. Eventually he reexamines his abysmal and complicated relationship with his father and wrestles with his demons. Along the way he sings a lot of songs. Look, this plot isn’t going to blow anyone’s mind.

 

Fortunately, “Better Man” has a director who knows exactly what to do with a story that’s kinda bulls–t. Michael Gracey is the filmmaker who turned the life of despicable monster P.T. Barnum into the feel-good movie event of 2017 with “The Greatest Showman.” (If you thought that was a cute and inspiring movie about the power of outsiders, found family and entertainment, you should really look up the actual life story of P.T. Barnum.)

 

 

“Better Man” takes full advantage of Gracey’s infectious musical zealotry, turning in a bravura, rapturous film with one of the best filmed and choreographed numbers of the 21st century as its centerpiece. (Or it’s one-thirderpiece. I’m not sure if a scene that plays around the 30-minute mark qualifies as the center of anything.) Williams’ music is varied enough that Gracey is able to transform his songs into graceful ballets, elaborate oners, tragic melodramas and a badass action sequence in which Williams violently murders the parts of himself that represent suicidal ideation.

 

That’s a lot. Williams doesn’t have anywhere near as much darkness in his life as Barnum did, but ironically it’s Williams who gets led down the grimmer cinematic path. Gracey may film “Better Man” through a thick veneer of showbiz glitz but — thanks in large part to the fact that, again, the star is a CGI chimpanzee — the film’s heaviest scenes sneak up on you and pack a wallop. These are moments that in a more conventionally presented musical biopic would be undone by their right-on-cue familiarity, but the artifice makes “Better Man’s” sincerity easier to swallow. Weird.

 

I’m not sure if people who don’t know Williams will love him after “Better Man,” but I can bet they’ll be humming his songs, and probably rewatching the film’s many fabulous numbers as soon as clips pop up on YouTube. “Better Man,” like this year’s “Kneecap” and to a lesser, more laid back extent “Piece By Piece,” proves there’s still some life in the formula. You just have to be willing to show off — and be a little cheeky.

 

https://www.thewrap.com/better-man-review-r...mpanzee-biopic/

Edited by Sydney11

Better Man review: Robbie Williams as a monkey is a surprising look at the ego-driven’s star’s life

Genuinely challenging critique is an impressive juggling act between celebration and self-deprecation

 

Better Man

 

****

 

Earlier this year, after this singular biopic premiered at Telluride Film Festival, in Colorado, a large portion of the American cultural commentarial responded with a collective “huh?”. Who the hell is this [checks credits] Robbie Williams and why is he being granted a two-hour-plus feature? It was educative. Oasis weren’t a sensation there, but American music fans knew who they were. It seems Williams and Take That were barely even a footnote.

 

Speaking of the Atlantic divide, setting Better Man beside the recent Piece by Piece offers a rude measure of how differently music stars see themselves in the United States and the United Kingdom. The Lego documentary on Pharrell Williams, despite its unusual format, was essentially a traditional talking-heads hagiography. Better Man, which replaces Williams with a monkey, attempts a genuinely challenging critique as it takes us from childhood in Stoke-on-Trent to stardom with Take That, to controversial edging out and on to solo triumph as the unofficial high king of Britain in the FHM era.

 

The protracted final act, dealing with addiction issues, suffers from its similarity to so many other dramatised rock-star declines and recoveries (which is not to take away from the seriousness of his problems). But this remains an impressive juggling act between celebration and self-deprecation.

 

Of course the exercise is still an ego trip. The semi-fictionalised protagonist is puffed up with a class of self-importance that might well lead him to make this very film. Ego is here as much of a disease as alcoholism.

 

I would love to know what that first audience in Telluride made of a recurring sentimental image: wee Robert (as he was until joining Take That) curled up with Walkers crisps and Nan (it just had to be Alison Steadman) before the Two Ronnies on a Saturday night. That kid was already a fan of Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin thanks to a dad who dabbled in comedy and crooning. Steve Pemberton has a ball – and so do we – as he makes a more gentle League of Gentleman character from the old rogue.

 

The monkey conceit is a success on several levels. It presses home that sense of Williams being an agent of chaos in any environment. We don’t entirely blame the band for freezing him out after repeated displays of self-centred anarchy. The simian guise is also a cunning way around a difficult casting challenge. At 50, Williams, for all his current clean energy, could never stand in for the Life Through a Lens version. Deaging is never fully effective. After a few minutes any Williams-aware viewer is likely to buy the gag.

 

 

There are a few bum notes. It may be a rights issue, but the Take That section is a bit light on that band’s own songs. How odd to celebrate early success with a – thrillingly staged, to be fair – production number to Williams’s own, later Rock DJ. The brief, broad representations of Oasis remind one of nothing so much as The Beatles in the definitive rock-biopic satire Walk Hard. (Maybe that says more about Oasis than it does about either film.) And that closing inverted parabola is dragged out too long.

 

All that noted, it is hard to imagine how such an enterprise could be better managed. Kudos to Michael Gracey, who also directed The Greatest Showman. One doesn’t need to be a Robbie Williams fan to enjoy Better Man, but one probably does need, at least, to be aware of the phenomenon. And only that P-word will do. As Better Man reminds us, in 2003 about 375,000 people travelled to see him play at Knebworth. The film ends (of course) with him offering olive branches to his Take That pals, but that must, at the time, have felt like the sweetest revenge.

 

In cinemas from Thursday, December 26th

 

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/film/rev...ms-as-a-monkey/

Edited by Sydney11

Robbie Williams Reveals How Gary Barlow Reacted to Biopic (Extended Interview) | Lorraine

 

Music icon Robbie Williams is getting ready to Entertain You this Christmas with his new biopic ‘Better Man’. He joins actor Jonno Davies for a sit down chat with Lucie Cave revealing why he chose to be portrayed as a chimpanzee, what Gary Barlow really thought of the film and why it left his ex Nicole Appleton in tears. Plus, what does Christmas look like in the Williams household? Robbie reveals all…

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sydney11

It has to be a big deal even getting a mention in the New York Times :cool:

 

Robbie Williams Never Broke the U.S. Can His Biopic !

 

 

He had 14 No. 1 singles in Britain, but is not well known in America. In the new movie “Better Man,” he’s played by a CGI monkey. When Michael Gracey thinks of Robbie Williams, “I think showman,” he said. Gracey, who directed the 2017 movie musical “The Greatest Showman,” has some experience centering a big budget feature around a performer who can work a crowd. His latest is built around Williams.

 

“Better Man” tracks the singer’s rise to become one of Britain’s biggest stars in the ’90s and early 2000s, when he seemed to be a permanent fixture on the charts — and in the tabloids. Williams frequently winked at his showboating, bad-boy public persona in flamboyant, rabble-rousing hit songs like “Let Me Entertain You.” But he never found success stateside, and in making a Williams biopic, Gracey said he was aware that “in America, they’re like ‘Who’s this guy?’”

 

Gracey’s solution was to portray the pop star as a CGI primate. “If I hadn’t been able to crack that as an idea,” the Australian director said, “I wouldn’t have made the film.”

 

At the peak of his fame, Williams openly struggled with depression and addiction, which is depicted in raw detail in the film. In a video interview, Williams, 50, said “Better Man” was about “enduring and overcoming, near death experiences, self-abuse and impostor syndrome.” He grinned knowingly. “It’s a very modern musical,” he added.

 

Here’s what to know about the man behind the monkey.

 

How did Williams become famous

 

Williams was born in Stoke-on-Trent, an industrial town in England’s West Midlands. In 1990, aged 16, he auditioned to be a member of Take That, a five-piece act that became one of Britain’s biggest boy bands, with eight No. 1 singles. Growing up in Australia, Gracey remembered Williams as the band member everyone was talking about. “It was undeniable he had a charisma to him, and a charm, and a cheekiness,” he said.

 

By 1995, at the height of the group’s fame, Williams had gained a reputation for partying, and raised eyebrows for drunkenly dancing onstage at Glastonbury during an Oasis set. Weeks later, he was kicked out of Take That. The band split up in 1996, and following the announcement, the Samaritans, a suicide prevention charity, set up a hotline for distraught teenage fans.

 

The British music journalist Miranda Sawyer compared Williams’s appeal to that of another cheeky northern lad: Harry Styles of One Direction.

She interviewed Williams in 1996, shortly after he left Take That. While “he was good in interviews, he was a great performer, and lots of women fancied him,” Sawyer said she was also struck by his vulnerability. After the interview, “I was worried about him,” she said. “I felt like phoning his mum.”

 

In Britain, the singer has had a total of 14 No. 1 albums — second only to The Beatles — and he has won more BRIT Awards, the British equivalent to the Grammys, than any other artist.

 

Now, with the release of “Better Man,” Williams said “I want to be omnipresent again, and to enjoy it this time.”

 

What is his music like

 

After Take That, Williams had a hugely successful solo career. His best known songs, like “Angels,” “Millennium” and “Feel,” have an anthemic quality, with soaring, crowd-pleasing choruses suited to stadium tours and karaoke booths.

Sawyer described “Angels” in particular as “inescapable,” transcending genre to become “a song that people play at weddings and funerals.”

When Williams played the Bowery Ballroom in 1999, The Times’s Jon Pareles wrote that “his songs and his voice proudly echo the Rolling Stones, David Bowie and especially the Beatles.” Pareles described the singer’s lyrics as “lovelorn, flirtatious or cocky, leavening sentimentality and self-help with a sense of humor.”

 

 

How big of an international star was he

 

Williams has had No. 1 hits in Britain, Ireland, Argentina, Brazil and New Zealand, among others. In Australia, Gracey said that “when Robbie dropped an album, we couldn’t escape it.”

 

In 2001, Williams released “Swing When You’re Winning,” an album of Rat Pack-style covers, and in 2002, at 28, he signed a record-breaking 80-million-pound, six-album deal with EMI.

 

He released albums in the United States but unlike other ’90s British pop stars such as the Spice Girls, he landed with little impact. British commentators saw the 2002 album “Escapology,” in particular, as an attempt to break the United States, but Williams said he never liked that narrative.

 

“You’re supposed to want it and need it,” Williams said of success in America, adding that he had chosen not to promote his records in the States so he could live there in anonymity, and protect his sanity.

“If I’d have broken America, I don’t know if I’d be on the planet,” he said

 

How did this biopic come to be

 

Gracey met Williams at a party in 2015 and struck up a friendship. The director became interested in making a film about Williams when he heard some of the singer’s stories. Gracey asked Williams if he could tape him telling them, and started drafting a screenplay based on 12 hours of audio recordings.

 

However, Gracey said that when he introduced “the monkey concept” to potential financiers, even the “more adventurous” ones were wary. It would be an expensive gamble, with the CGI effectively doubling the film’s budget. The monkey, he said, also eliminated any opportunity to reassure backers that the film was following a tried and tested formula.

 

Why is Williams portrayed as a monkey

 

“The question,” Gracey said with a sigh.

 

Creatively speaking, musical biopics were a well-trodden path, the director said, and he wanted to do something different.

 

Listening to the recordings of Williams telling his stories, Gracey was struck by the number of times Williams referred to himself as “a performing monkey.”

 

In the film, the monkey has Williams’s own eyes, and while the actor Jonno Davies provides the monkey’s motion capture and voice acting, the singer himself narrates the story.

Williams said the upside to being portrayed by a CGI monkey was that everyone was talking about it. Next summer, Williams will embark on a European tour, and he said that the buzz around the film “nitros everything,” when it comes to ticket sales.

 

The downside, though, was that he recently caught himself “getting slightly jealous of the attention the monkey was getting.” He described a moment of madness: “I was like, ‘What if the monkey breaks America and I don’t?’”

 

What happened next

 

“Better Man” focuses on the early part of Williams’ career, from his childhood through to the early 2000s. “The juiciest bits of my story are the beginning bits, of fame and addiction,” said Williams, who now lives between London and Los Angeles with the actress Ayda Field, whom he married in 2010. “A ‘Love, Actually’ version of me meeting my wife would be a different film,” he said, adding “I don’t think many people will be queuing for that.”

 

He said that the story, after the film ends, is one of “somebody that’s not completely done with accepting the fact that he’s an alcoholic, and an addict.”

 

Though he “went off looking for loopholes” and delayed his recovery, it was a different story now, he said. “I’m a happy, recovered, recovering addict with four kids,” he said. “I am now a better man.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/

Edited by Sydney11

Alex, one more question. Is BM already out in the cinema in Russia or was this only one of the pre-shows? And was it translated?

Not yet, it will out in the cinema on Dec 26.

But tomorrow there will be 2 another pre shows.

 

Yes, it was translated, without Robbie's original voice.

Songs were not translated but had Russian subtitles.

 

Btw, it seemed for me that Angels in the movie is not Angels we heard 1-2 weeks ago. You could remember we heard Robbie there while in the movie seems it's not Robbie sang.

Btw, it seemed for me that Angels in the movie is not Angels we heard 1-2 weeks ago. You could remember we heard Robbie there while in the movie seems it's not Robbie sang.

 

 

That seems odd.. I wonder why they would do that ..

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