I think it’s understandable that when you say England as a nation doesn’t deserve it that some English people may not appreciate your view, surely you can’t be surprised?

 

I don’t think being accused of xenophobia is understandable in the slightest.

 

Winning a World Cup is the last thing England need right now. Whilst I know that the very worst of the country is not fully representative of the whole nation, a win would have just fed the racists and bigots in a way that Brexit did. Even people who are English acknowledge this. The government based in England is absolutely evil in a way they never have been before the last few years. The media feed off this idea that Britain/England is better than other nations and again, whilst not everyone thinks this, it will feed the very worst in society and validate their views in their minds like Brexit, 1966 and the wars already do.

 

And living in a smaller nation whose culture and language are often under attack even now, and who are often seen as inferior and who are lead by the government of a different nation, on a personal note I’d rather not suffer any more of the superiority.

 

10 years ago perhaps, it wouldn’t have been an issue but now is not a good time for an England victory. Perhaps in future years when we get a change in government and our media stop playing towards the bigots, things will be different. I feel bad for the England team because they conduct themselves brilliantly and would fully deserve a win. But unfortunately the very culture of England fans fills me with absolute dread.

 

I mean, I can’t be surprised at the poster who have jumped at the chance to accuse me of being xenophobic. I’ve explained my reasons for saying what I’ve said and I guess if they’re not good enough for you, you could always report my comment.

I don't entirely disagree with you T Boy, that I don't want conservatives trumpeting an English victory. Not least this is slightly relieving because pressure's now off among my friend group (where I'm the only Brit), and given I'd be out of the country if we had won it, but I do disagree with holding the government of England accountable for what its citizens deserve. There's problems with French domestic politics in the same way England has problems (for either 2018 winners or 2022 champions), and while I suspect many of us, me included, are all now cheering for Morocco as underdogs we certainly aren't doing so to endorse their government or traditional culture. I feel asking people to wait until the national mood and government is less corrupt and evil is a bit unfair on English fans, a large number of whom would agree with you on that. The national mood could use a win. It would be made better by that.

 

While taking into account there's a minority of dickheads, the national mood for England expectations is far less poisonous than it was in the 00s, when we have achieved more. There's an expectation now that quarter-finals is a good benchmark to reach, not disappointing, when it absolutely was a disappointment in 2002/2004/2006. 1966 was certainly invoked a lot more back then but now it's a bit passe. The media headlines will go one day to mourn our loss but I don't think anyone's hounding Southgate out of the job (he may quit, but it'll probably be on his terms) or blaming the players like they were absolutely doing for Sven Goran-Eriksson. There's even significant improvement from the 2020 reactions - and even then I remember more pulling together and denouncing the racists than I do the racism.

 

I think England has gotten more mature about tournaments. And better too. It's much more 'this is our team, we're behind them and they're actually pretty good', whereas before 2016 it was very much 'overhyped and useless footballers who don't give us anywhere near the results we deserve'. That England football team didn't deserve to win anything; this one does.

And where have I asked anyone to wait?

 

I’ve said that I think this would be an awful time for England to win and I stand by that. Perhaps it would cheer England up as a nation but what about the rest of the UK? I’m actually properly offended about being accused of being xenophobic just because I’ve been critical of England. We’ve all been critical of other nations and that doesn’t seem to be seen as xenophobic.

 

There’s an entitlement and arrogance around England, even in so much as the commentary where they mentioned it’s a shame England can’t go on to beat Morocco, like it would have been a given. It’s so off putting that no, I don’t think they deserve to have that win. Feel free to disagree with me but don’t come at me with accusations of xenophobia.

Everyone has a blind spot for their own nationalism unless they're made aware of it.

 

I don't think you're being xenophobic, the position the Scots, Welsh and N Irish are put in so often with things like commentary is somewhat unenviable - that we can't bring everyone along on the same ride with football is a shame, but I'm fairly sure most English would cheer one of the other Home Nations winning a tournament.

 

I'm not dumb, I know why it isn't reciprocal, but it is a damn shame that it isn't.

 

 

I don’t think you’re xenophobic at all.

 

However I did find the comment around England as a nation not being deserving a bit off. And the point I was trying to say yesterday was that saying it in a thread where a lot of people are likely to be feeling down about the result was always likely to be triggering so it wasn’t surprising when someone reacted.

 

I don’t agree with Spiceboy either for the record, the personal bits certainly could have been left out.

 

 

Personal opinion is that you should both put each other on ignore as you both seem to have a habit of winding each other up and ending up in personal arguments that, from the outside, appear to upset you both.

I’m only upset because you left out the ‘I don’t think you’re xenophobic’ part in your initial post. Thanks for clarification.

 

But I still find it interesting the default is that we should support the nearest nation because. This is the first Wales World Cup in my lifetime and teaching in a school not far from the border I can safely say there wasn’t much support for Wales from England fans. Anyway, going by that logic, I assume you’re all supporting France for the win?

 

And as for Spiceboy, yes I reacted but his dig, once again was completely unprovoked as though he didn’t like my comment, there is no way I was aiming it at anyone in particular.

I don’t think it’s nearest that’s important, it’s more that I grew up thinking of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as one unit. I would always support the other home nations, even in the England Wales match my ultimate preference would be to have both qualify if that would have been possible. I’d also be super happy to see any of them win the World Cup if it were to happen.

 

Outside of those, I don’t really have a preference. I guess it would be good to see an African country win for the first time though.

I don’t think being accused of xenophobia is understandable in the slightest.

 

Winning a World Cup is the last thing England need right now. Whilst I know that the very worst of the country is not fully representative of the whole nation, a win would have just fed the racists and bigots in a way that Brexit did. Even people who are English acknowledge this. The government based in England is absolutely evil in a way they never have been before the last few years. The media feed off this idea that Britain/England is better than other nations and again, whilst not everyone thinks this, it will feed the very worst in society and validate their views in their minds like Brexit, 1966 and the wars already do.

 

And living in a smaller nation whose culture and language are often under attack even now, and who are often seen as inferior and who are lead by the government of a different nation, on a personal note I’d rather not suffer any more of the superiority.

 

10 years ago perhaps, it wouldn’t have been an issue but now is not a good time for an England victory. Perhaps in future years when we get a change in government and our media stop playing towards the bigots, things will be different. I feel bad for the England team because they conduct themselves brilliantly and would fully deserve a win. But unfortunately the very culture of England fans fills me with absolute dread.

 

I mean, I can’t be surprised at the poster who have jumped at the chance to accuse me of being xenophobic. I’ve explained my reasons for saying what I’ve said and I guess if they’re not good enough for you, you could always report my comment.

 

Hyperbole much. Are you aware of an actual fascist government that is trying to destroy their European neighbour now and England is one of those countries that has been by Ukraine's side from the beginning to save their country.

 

It's disappointing to see nationalists from the UK whether they are welsh or scottish hijacking a thread that is about the England football team and instead want to talk about politics. I'm proud of this England team and the match could have gone either way, maybe one day. At least I can say that about my country's team, unlike these annoying nationalists that want to start an argument with English people all the time.

This isn't the politics thread - if we want to discuss politics, do that in the right forum. Sorry Michael, but there was no need for that post so it's in the bin.

 

There is good reason that politicians and politics are banned from interference with football. A government does not represent a footballing identity. You can be joyous that Saudi Arabia beat Argentina, because the Saudi government don't own the football idenity, the people own that. Very much like like the British government don't own the England football team, or any of the home nations for that matter. Yes, football stokes nationalism but is that always a bad thing? Too many people can't seperate their hatred of England vs football.

 

That's alright, it still gets added to my post tally on the Sunday chart! :cheer:

 

And I didn't say anything aboot the team - except that it's shite - and just about the government, as I DO separate the two!

The defeat last night felt nowhere near as bad as the previous two have. We put in a really good showing against a side who are definitely top 5 in the world and England probably go through that 50% of the time, it's difficult to ask for any more than that. The criticisms levelled at Southgate in previous tournaments just haven't applied this time around.

 

It's a great squad and I love every one of them, looking forward to continuing to follow and support them onto the next one.

The criticism is valid - the team's defence id WOEFUL, which is why they keep conceding goals!!!

The criticism is valid - the team's defence id WOEFUL, which is why they keep conceding goals!!!

 

But that's got absolutely nothing to do what I said about Southgate and the criticisms aimed at him for the defeats to Croatia and Italy. A different coach doesn't magically create two better defenders.

 

Hyperbole much. Are you aware of an actual fascist government that is trying to destroy their European neighbour now and England is one of those countries that has been by Ukraine's side from the beginning to save their country.

 

It's disappointing to see nationalists from the UK whether they are welsh or scottish hijacking a thread that is about the England football team and instead want to talk about politics. I'm proud of this England team and the match could have gone either way, maybe one day. At least I can say that about my country's team, unlike these annoying nationalists that want to start an argument with English people all the time.

 

There being a more fascist government out there doesn’t mean that ours is good, for one thing they have constantly used the war in Ukraine to distract from issues here.

 

And I made one comment about how I felt, it wasn’t an attack though people have chosen to take it that way. And your rhetoric about nationalists and the implication from your ‘at least I can say I’m proud unlike you’ comment is exactly the attitude that drives people drone the devolved nations against England. Wales qualified for their first World Cup in 64 years and we are proud of them. People have the right to be proud of England too but the objection I have is the fan/media reaction which you have just displayed in your post.

There being a more fascist government out there doesn’t mean that ours is good, for one thing they have constantly used the war in Ukraine to distract from issues here.

 

And I made one comment about how I felt, it wasn’t an attack though people have chosen to take it that way. And your rhetoric about nationalists and the implication from your ‘at least I can say I’m proud unlike you’ comment is exactly the attitude that drives people drone the devolved nations against England. Wales qualified for their first World Cup in 64 years and we are proud of them. People have the right to be proud of England too but the objection I have is the fan/media reaction which you have just displayed in your post.

 

Omfg, THIS!!! :cheer: :cheer:

 

Ok, locking this for the time being,

For the record I wasn't attacking you T-Boy there are other comments than just yours in this thread that commented on England as a nation.

 

I also have no idea whether you are xenophobic or not, doesn't take away from the fact that comments (not just yours) saying England are trash or The English are all racist thugs, Football morons, Don't deserve to win, are all nationalists etc (not just referring to this thread there was so many of them during the Europeans cup) are Xenophobic, whether you intend them to be or not:

 

"dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries." = definition of xenophobia

 

It's just really sad reading comments like the whole of a country were celebrating that England were out of the tournament (again Euros not this thread) or that I and the whole of my country are some kind of racist nationalists for supporting our home team. I don't post those comments about other countries in the tournaments and no country is completely clean in it's history or present. In reality I would be attacked for posting comments about Germany or France not deserving to win because of their history or their current politics, yet it's not an issue saying it about England it seems.

 

So yeah it pisses me off and I think there is no need for it, and if anyone doesn't want to be pointed out that a comment is rude or uncalled for (or xenophobic) then don't post.

You realise doing those things is not a bad thing?

 

And I don’t get why being relieved about not having to deal with an England win (after years of hearing about 1966 and two world wars over and over) is counted as xenophobia.

 

 

Of course they are not I fully support those views, I am disabled and gay afterall I face inequality and discrimination in every day life. Did you know there are waterproof mobile phones and camera you can take in the sea but they haven't bothered to make waterproof hearing aids yet? Or that I cannot go see any theatre shows in Leeds where I live because they don't offer captioned performances. Or that I was turned down from camp America because they said my loss of hearing would be a liability to the children (which makes it even more hilarious that I went on to be a primary teacher)... I face discrimination in every day life and I despise it and while I know I am not perfect I always want to learn more about helping others. I just find it a little hypocritical when people shout loud about equality, fairness etc then post quite phobic comments in other ways.

Edited December 11, 20222 yr by spiceboy

So I’m not allowed to dislike the idea of what things would have been like if England had won? That’s prejudice and xenophobia?

 

Fine. Perhaps you’d like to look into the history of England’s relationships with the devolved nations and then tell people what they can and can’t say about a football tournament.

Of course they are not I fully support those views, I am disabled and gay afterall. I just find it a little hypocritical when people shout loud about equality, fairness etc then post quite phobic comments in other ways.

 

Just letting you know I’m half English just so you have the facts when describing me as ‘phobic’.