Harve,

Well i don't know about then but 12 hours later on our national news there were definately pictures of devastation that the media said was Gori, and i don't see why the BBC would lie.

BBC and other mass propaganda media don't lie but they play with the words.

For example:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4489149.ece

We see: Russians sent tankes and then in the next paragraph we read about thousands of deaths. So, who killed these people? You have yourself to guess. ;) Of course everyone thinks to Russia. And no word about Georgians' bombing with "Grad" artilleries which caused 2 thousands of deaths.

 

And when Georgia shelled Tskhinvali it was reported that 3 of the Russian army were killed

And why did they kill our soldiers when we didn't make a fire at them that time? ;) We started a fire at about 3:pm in 8 August when they started to shoot Tskhinvali at 23:30 in 7 August. They shooted at civilians at night! And that's what about I say: it's a provocation from Georgia.

 

We can debate about the point of economical reasons of Russian "invaders", but the fact is the fact: Georgia attacked and Russia answered. If Georgia didn't attack Tskhinvali Russia wouldn't answer. Now russian army is really attacking Georgia on many fronts.

 

And btw... What about american soldiers in Georgia? ;)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=132442

In fact we don't speak about Russian-Georgian opposition, it's the new turn of Russian-US conflict, Saakashvili is only a pawn who is married by the way on the american CIA agent. And these "revolutions" which were in Georgia and Ukrains were widely sponsored by the USA.

 

About Russia.... I don't like Putin-Medvedev's politics because it is not rational. We live because of the good prices of oil. Now we need to rise economics developing new modern technologies. Instead of that there was created "stabilization fond" where much of amount of "oil" money is collected. There are also problems with bureaucrats who are interested in only their own problems and not in the problems of the population. Although we all live WAY better than lived for example 10 years ago.

And why did they kill our soldiers when we didn't make a fire at them that time? ;) We started a fire at about 3:pm in 8 August when they started to shoot Tskhinvali at 23:30 in 7 August. They shooted at civilians at night! And that's what about I say: it's a provocation from Georgia.

 

And what about RUSSIAN provocation in arming and supporting these militia groups who are hell-bent on undermining Georgia and furthering the territorial interests of YOUR country's leaders.... These soldiers were killed because they were somewhere they shouldn't have been (ie, invading a sovereign nation's territory...), simple as, their presence on the soil of another country makes them legitimate targets, not 'innocent civilians'... God, why dont you wake up and actually see what's going on here.....? This is Russian aggression, Russia attempting to punish a former colony for having the "nerve" to want to break free from RUSSIAN tyranny and Imperialism.... Do you honestly believe that Georgia and Ukraine actually WANTED to be part of the USSR or the Russian Federation any more than Poland, East Germany, Hungary or Czechoslovakia did....? Like fukk they did, the Georgian Kingdom has a history which dates back over a thousand years (from the 11th Century to the early 19th), it was annexed by Russia until 1918, there was a short-lived Georgian state from 1918-21, and then subsumed for about 80 by the Soviets. This country has an incredibly LONG history; try looking it up sometime because your pig-ignorance of these facts is frankly unbelievable if you honestly believe that Georgia's desire to be a State in its own right is only something that's recent or been sponsored by the US..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_under..._Russian_Empire South Ossetia has NO SUCH HISTORY of being its own state in any period of history, same for Abkhazia, neither South Ossetian or Abkhazian "independance" is even recognised by the UN who continue to regard them as being part of GEORGIAN territory.......

 

And besides, Your fukkin' ex-President attempted to assassinate the Ukrainian leader, he HAS assassinated and incarcerated political opponents in Russia, and he sent Russian spies to assassinate a Russian national on BRITISH soil...... Your defence of your country's naked aggression is pathetic frankly, you should be condemning this as much as WE on this Forum condemn the actions of America and UK in Iraq, anything else is being an apologist.....

Mate, Russia has been supporting and arming militia groups in South Ossetia for years now... And it was these troublemakers which broke away from Georgia to begin with..Without the arming and tacit support of Russia, no way would these groups have the stones to form a de facto breakaway "republic"... Russia's interests in doing this were purely to undermine and destabilise the Georgian State... Don't kid yourself that the Russians dont have ulterior motives here, and they certainly involve strategic and economic concerns....

I'm not saying that Russia isn't in the "wrong", but i do think that aswell as to undermine Georgia they are trying to prevent Georgia and Ukraine joining NATO. Another way Russia tried to stop this was the attempted assination of the Ukraine president like you said.

 

And Arrs about this "propaganda" by our media: they say that Georgia has stopped trying to fight Russia in an attempt to call a ceasefire, but Russia has still carried on bombing places around Tblisi. However now i think they have stopped according to a RUSSIAN news site which i really don't understand at all :P

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143903&...p;doc_id=200400

I'm not saying that Russia isn't in the "wrong", but i do think that aswell as to undermine Georgia they are trying to prevent Georgia and Ukraine joining NATO. Another way Russia tried to stop this was the attempted assination of the Ukraine president like you said.

 

Oh, I've absolutely no doubt that Russia is doing this to stop Georgia and Ukraine joining NATO, or indeed the EU eventually... It's obvious that both the Georgian and Ukrainian peoples generally want nothing to do with Russia, viewing them as aggressors and bullies...I know a few Ukrainian people through the University in London that I work at, believe me, they have nothing complimentary to say about Russian politics, mention Putin, and the air turns blue..... :lol: Same with many Polish and Czech people that I know....

Harve,

BBC and other mass propaganda media don't lie but they play with the words.

 

The BBC don't lie? Didn't Blue Peter call a cat "Socks" rather than "Cookie" in 2006 or 2007?

The BBC don't lie? Didn't Blue Peter call a cat "Socks" rather than "Cookie" in 2006 or 2007?

I don't think they'd lie about something they don't have to lie about though. Not that i'm justifying what Blue Peter did but that was because of a dodgy telephone line wasn't it?

The BBC don't lie? Didn't Blue Peter call a cat "Socks" rather than "Cookie" in 2006 or 2007?

 

No disrespect, but that is a really silly example..... I mean, come on... We're talking about News/Current affairs, important stuff, and you're talking about the Blue Peter moggy..... :lol: :lol:

 

These soldiers were killed because they were somewhere they shouldn't have been

I repeat: UN allowed Russian army to be in the South Ossetia and if there are any conflicts between Georgia and Ossetia to prevent them.

 

their presence on the soil of another country makes them legitimate targets, not 'innocent civilians'...

And I also repeat: Georgians made a fire on the city and killed many of people, Ossetians, and also killed our soldiers.

 

Do you honestly believe that Georgia and Ukraine actually WANTED to be part of the USSR

If we talk about this... Ukraine and Georgia were part of Russia before the Soviet Union. History of Ukraine, see Wikipedia. )))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine

I want you to look at Kievan Rus' (how can we talk about wish of Ukraine to be a part of Western World when historically Kiev was the capital of Rus'?). Also pay attention on Lithuanian-Polish invasion in 14th century. And Ukraine became the part of Russia in the end of 18 century.

Georgia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ge...sian_annexation

As we see, Georgia itself asked Russia for protection from Persian and Turkish invaders. Georgia wasn't part of any country for very few years.

 

Also I want to pay attention at the fact that there are 10% monoethnic Russians in Ukraine and also 23% biethnic Russian-Ukrains. Also don't forget that there are Western Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine which are really different between themselves.

 

Also there always have been very close connections between these territories. So, do Ukranian and Georgian people really want to make no relationships with Russia or these phrases we hear only from Presidents who were elected after "revolutions" which had been held with the massive help of US money and support? I don't say anything about Union Country with the head of Russian State, I only say that Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Belorussia have very close relationships and attempts to deny them cause only bad economical consequences.

 

And besides, Your fukkin' ex-President attempted to assassinate the Ukrainian leader

:lol: Is it when Ushchenko was elected during the "Revolution"? ))))) And didn't you think that it is falsification? ))

 

Harve,

I know a few Ukrainian people through the University in London that I work at, believe me, they have nothing complimentary to say about Russian politics, mention Putin

Well, I was a moderator on one Russian forum, I moderated also Politics forum. And I want to say that there are lots of people from Ukraine who really hate Russia but also there are many people with the opposit point of view, the percentage of them is something about 50|50.

 

And about how to make from road accident victims of war.

http://life.ru/news/30782

And very awful, but translation:

http://www.translate.ru/url/tran_url.asp?l...p;psubmit2.y=17

 

I don't try to prove that Russians are right at all (coz it's not true anyway), I try to show that this situation is not so monosemantic, black and white, as they want to show you: Russians are aggressors while Georgia is poor democratic country who is suffering from Russian invasion.

I repeat: UN allowed Russian army to be in the South Ossetia and if there are any conflicts between Georgia and Ossetia to prevent them.

 

Harve,

The BBC showed the UK footage of Russian troops going further into Georgia, not South Ossetia. It seems that Georgia were fighting their own territory to reclaim it, as for the bombing i don't know. Maybe a "scorched earth" policy?

 

And i didn't make that comment :P. Also i respect you being fairly open-minded on this

The BBC showed the UK footage of Russian troops going further into Georgia, not South Ossetia.

 

Yeah, such as TBLISI which is MILES away from South Ossetia... I'm pretty damn sure the UN did NOT give Russia permission to bomb targets there.... :rolleyes:

 

Georgia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ge...sian_annexation

As we see, Georgia itself asked Russia for protection from Persian and Turkish invaders. Georgia wasn't part of any country for very few years.

 

Absolute rot... The Kingdom of Georgia existed for hundreds of years, hardly a "few".... Georgia has a rich culture which Imperialist, Czarist Russians and the likes of Stalin and the Communists attempted to destroy.... Yeah, they asked for "protection" from the Persians and Turks, but I reckon they were looking more for diplomatic ties rather than be beaten down and colonised to the extent they were, I reckon it was more co-ercion than the Georgians making their own decisions.... US aid finally gave Georgia its chance to re-assert its own independance after years of Soviet/Russian tyranny....

 

I don't want to argue about historical moments coz I don't know the history of those places.

 

I think that we won't come to the united opinion in this subject, but... it's the last video I post here and finish from my side this arguement. ))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

^

 

Your country's leaders are a fukkin disgrace, whom you should be utterly ashamed of for their war mongering acts that almost manages to make George W. Bush & co seem like a nice person. :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

After Georgia, Moscow issues nuclear warning to Poland

By Shaun Walker in Tbilisi and Anne Penketh

Reuters.com Saturday, 16 August 2008

 

A senior Russian general has revived fears of a new Cold War by threatening Poland with a possible nuclear strike, as the President of Georgia bowed to the inevitable and signed a ceasefire the terms of which were dictated by Moscow.

 

General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, Russia's deputy chief of staff, reflected the Kremlin's fury at an agreement reached on Thursday between the United States and Poland, which is to host part of a US missile defence shield that has been fiercely opposed by Moscow. It "cannot go unpunished", General Nogovitsyn said in Moscow yesterday.

 

"Poland, by deploying [the system], is exposing itself to a strike – 100 per cent," said the general. But he raised the stakes by coupling the warning with a reminder that Russia's military doctrine provided for the use of nuclear weapons in such a case, and that Poland was aware of this.

 

The developments came at the end of a day of intensified diplomacy, as the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, spent nearly five hours negotiating with the Georgian President in which she provided "clarifications" about the ceasefire agreement.

 

Speaking at a news conference outside the presidential palace, an emotional Mr Saakashvili appeared to blame Europe for the Russian invasion of his country, and accused the Russians of being "barbarians" who "despise everything new, everything modern, everything European, everything civilised".

 

Mr Saakashvili said European leaders who failed to stand up to Moscow shared the blame for the Georgian deaths. The tired-looking President said that months of Russian provocations against Georgia had elicited only "muted and quiet reactions" from European capitals. "Who invited the trouble here? Who invited the arrogance here? Who invited these innocent deaths here? Not only those who perpetrated it but those who allowed it to happen."

 

Ms Rice struck a much more measured tone, refusing to criticise Europe and making only tempered criticism of Russia. While insisting on an "immediate and orderly withdrawal of Russia's armed forces" in line with the French-brokered truce secured earlier this week, she did not offer any indication of the US response if such action was not forthcoming. She also said that Russia's membership in global clubs was under review.

 

Despite the ceasefire agreement, assuming it is honoured, there is still a giant gulf between the two sides over what happens next in the disputed territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. A day after Sergei Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister, said the world could "forget" about Georgia's territorial integrity, Mr Saakashvili stressed that he was not prepared to negotiate the status of the two territories.

 

But the Georgian leader has suffered a bitter defeat: his army is destroyed, his country ruined, and the Ossetians and Abkhaz are buoyant in the knowledge that they can count on more Russian support than ever before in their desires to be free of Georgian rule.

 

In Washington, President George Bush kept up his verbal attacks on the Kremlin, accusing Russia of "bullying and intimidation" of an independent nation.

 

The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, who held talks with the Russian President, Dmitry Medvedev, said the Russian retaliation to the attack by Georgian forces on 8 August against the South Ossetian capital was "disproportionate". Appearing with Mrs Merkel at a joint news conference in Sochi, the Russian President's summer residence, Mr Medvedev spoke out against the US-Polish deal, saying that " the deployment has the Russian Federation as its target". The Russians have rejected the US contention that the missile shield is designed to be used against possible strikes from states such as Iran.

 

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Saturday, 16 August 2008 10:26 UK

Russia in control and on the move inside Georgia despite ceasefire

By Richard Galpin

BBC News, Poti, Georgia

 

As we watched, a column of Russian military vehicles moved into Georgia's main port of Poti and sealed off the entrance to the military part of the complex.

 

Troop transporters, armoured personnel carriers and military speedboats are now lined up inside.

Russian helicopters, including a gunship, also flew to the Black Sea port, with one of the aircraft landing briefly.

 

The Russians stopped us filming and refused to say what they were doing or how long they would stay. This is at least the third time the Russian army has moved into the port.

But we know from what we've seen that they're destroying Georgian military hardware.

 

Rumbling of vehicles

 

In the past few days, up to six Georgian navy vessels have either been crippled or sunk.

There are also reports of navigation equipment and computers being destroyed or removed.

 

The Russians appear to be, to use military jargon, neutralising the threat.

 

We managed to film a half-sunken Georgian coastguard vessel, which the Russians had blown up with explosives, or possibly shot with a tank.

We've not been able to speak to any Georgian military - there's none around here.

We spoke to local Georgians in the shops and on the streets in the town centre of Poti - they said they were very afraid.

One elderly woman said she couldn't sleep at all at night, fearing the sound of the rumbling of vehicles.

 

Earlier, we drove to a town called Senaki, about 30km (20 miles) east of here and it seemed the Russians were very much occupying it.

 

Russians appear very much in control, even some in rural areas

They'd certainly taken control of the Georgian military base there and it felt very much like they were in control.

 

As we drove through we saw columns of Russian military vehicles coming down the street and an artillery position with anti-aircraft guns.

 

The Russian peacekeepers are allowed to be inside Abkhazia and South Ossetia and in a buffer zone around those two regions.

 

But here, in Poti, and in Senaki, they're way beyond - according to our calculations - about 10km (six miles) away from the buffer zone.

 

This is sovereign Georgian territory that the Russian military is moving into and controlling as they carry on operations to destroy military equipment.

 

 

I know i'm stating the obvious but another Cold War would be really really really awful :(

 

-_-

^

 

Your country's leaders are a fukkin disgrace, whom you should be utterly ashamed of for their war mongering acts that almost manages to make George W. Bush & co seem like a nice person. :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

Spot on Richard... I reckon Arrs is some sort of apologist tbh, despite his claims that he doesn't agree with what his Govt is doing.... He's certainly not making any kind of meaningful protestations about it and continually comes away with excuses for his country's actions...

 

Mind you, Dubya a "nice person"...?? LOL, I know you're only kidding with that remark, but I have to admit at barely being able to stifle my laughter when Bush calls Russia to task for being "aggressive"...... :lol: Let's see - TWO invasions (at least one of which was totally illegal...) and the threats of nuclear strikes against a THIRD nation who want to develop their own nuclear deterrant to protect themselves against an aggressive, bullying state who got their nukes illegally from, well, America..... ROFLMAO......

 

"This is not how we conduct foreign policy in the 21st Century".. No, George, it isn't mate. How about you actually listen to your OWN words you redneck, cracker, warmongering piece of sh!t.... <_<

 

To Arrs - you see, I dont sit here making excuses for the West's actions, and neither does Richard..... How about you follow the example.....? -_-

This is getting very very ridiculous :lol: I mean Saakashvili is a poor little politician who just tries to protect his own country. HAHA

 

It is very easy to believe everything you read. I am 99,99% sure you have not seen those documentary films with conversations with witnesses of this attack, their own, true version of what had happened, with people who lost their family in Tckhinval, with the russian soldiers etc. Russia did not do anything wrong and i am not even a 0,00000001% unsure about it, although i dislike Putin-Medvedev as politicians. INNIT

This is getting very very ridiculous :lol: I mean Saakashvili is a poor little politician who just tries to protect his own country. HAHA

 

It is very easy to believe everything you read. I am 99,99% sure you have not seen those documentary films with conversations with witnesses of this attack, their own, true version of what had happened, with people who lost their family in Tckhinval, with the russian soldiers etc. Russia did not do anything wrong and i am not even a 0,00000001% unsure about it, although i dislike Putin-Medvedev as politicians. INNIT

 

And another apologist for Russian Imperialism talking absolute TRIPE..... :rolleyes:

 

Let's make this absolutely clear, your Govt destabilises this region by illegally providing weapons to Militia groups who suddenly declare "independence" (which is a joke in itself, these "independent" regions would eventually be swallowed up by Russia, these people are NOT nationalists, they're a bunch of ethnic Russian troublemakers whose loyalties are to the "Mother Country"...) and then when the Georgian President actually does something to stop his country from being carved up HE'S the bad guy.....ROFLMAO..... Putin and Medvedev are interested in South Ossetia ONLY for its economic and strategic importance, destabilizing Georgia is an added bonus, punishment for them wanting to be in NATO and possibly the EU, and have closer ties to Western Europe. If you cant see that, then you're an idiot..... You lot should put your own house in order before you start taking on your neighbouring nations, Putin and Medvedev are a disgrace to any country that claims to be Democratic....

 

 

i don't understand how Russia are painting themselves as the victim to their own people.

 

The Russian Gvnmnt must be exercising some serious control over foreign media for it's own people to buying their $h!te the way they are.

 

I know were just bush's lapdogs but the western/european world isn't an evil one.

You are wrong about me being an apologist :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Maybe i am not such a specialist at Russian politics as you are ( :rolleyes: ) but know my country better than you.

 

This conflict of opinions will never end so i regret i did bump this thread. And don't bother to write the reply about me being an idiot again. :rolleyes:

August 28, 2008

Independent.co.uk

Russian-backed paramilitaries 'ethnically cleansing villages'

(Shakh Aivazov/AP)

 

South Ossetian militiamen have reportedly torched houses, beaten elderly people and murdered civilians

James Hider in Gori

 

Russian-backed paramilitaries are “ethnically cleansing” villages on Georgian soil, refugees, Red Cross & independent UN observers told The Independent yesterday.

 

South Ossetian militiamen have torched houses, beaten elderly people and even murdered civilians in the lawless buffer zone set up by the Russian Army just north of Gori. The violence, close to the border with the breakaway republic recognised by Russia this week as independent, has prompted a new wave of refugees into Gori, 40 miles north of Tbilisi.

 

People who had started to return to their villages in the area are now fleeing for a second time, joined by many elderly people who had refused to leave their homes when the Russians invaded two weeks ago.

 

A straggle of refugees gathered yesterday at the feet of a giant statue of Josef Stalin, Gori’s infamous native son, to register with the local authorities and the UN refugee agency, the UNHCR, for emergency supplies and accommodation in three tent cities being built near a football stadium.

 

“They had no uniform — I think they were Ossetians,” said Siyala Sereteli, 73, who fled her village of Irganeteye the previous day when irregular forces arrived. Weeping, she lifted her sleeve to show a deep bruise inflicted by a blow from a rifle stock. “They took everything they wanted, even the fans. They beat up a man using sticks and a chair and then threw him in the river,” she said.

 

Other refugees were clustered in the shabby city hall, trying to glean news of relatives still inside the buffer zone, which Russia said it had established to prevent Georgian attacks on South Ossetians, many of whom hold Russian passports. A look of deep shock froze the face of Oliko Gnolidze when she managed to make contact on her mobile phone with an uncle, Nodari Jashiashvili, in Tkviai, about a 20-minute drive away.

 

“There is panic here, they are burning houses,” came the crackly voice of her uncle. “I don’t know what to do. Ossetians are in the village.” Ms Gnolidze, 38, said that in earlier conversations her uncle had told her that only a few people remained in the village, with Ossetian irregulars looting under the noses of Russian troops, described by Moscow as “peacekeepers”. She said the Russians had forced her uncle to cook a meal for them, after which he had fled and hidden in nearby woods.

 

Shorta Kharadze, a 45-year-old lorry driver, returned to Gori from Tbilisi, where he had sheltered during the fighting, after his mother’s neighbours from the village of Megheverizkevi told him that she had been murdered by South Ossetian militiamen.

 

Looking gaunt, Mr Kharadze said the neighbours had telephoned him to say that two men in uniform had come to the home of his 77-year-old mother, Oliya, and demanded to know why she hadn’t left the village. She had been wounded in the arm during the fighting in the area but had refused to leave.

 

“They beat her with an axe handle. There’s a pond in our yard — she fell near it and they pushed her in. I don’t know if she was still alive when they pushed her in or if she drowned,” Mr Kharadze said.

 

“It’s like ethnic cleansing, genocide,” said Koba Tlashadze, a council official in Gori, which was itself briefly occupied by Russian forces before last week’s ceasefire. “It’s a special operation codenamed Clean Field, because they are emptying the villages.”

 

The UNHCR has voiced its concern about reports of “new forcible displacement caused by marauding militias north of Gori near the boundary with South Ossetia”. It said as many as 400 displaced people had gathered on Gori’s square on Tuesday “after being forced to flee their villages by marauders operating in the so-called buffer zone established along the boundary with South Ossetia”.

 

Alessandra Morelli, a UNHCR co-ordinator in Gori, said that confirming the stories was impossible because Russian checkpoints had sealed off the buffer zone.

 

Farther west, in Borjomi, Georgia’s Environment Minister accused Russia of having deliberately started extensive forest fires in the country’s main natural park by firing incendiary flares into tinder-dry mountains. After a helicopter inspection of the still-smouldering area, Irakli Ghvaladze said an investigation was being set up into Russian strikes on the park — far from military operations — for almost a week during the conflict. “We have begun to investigate this ecocide,” he said. The fires had destroyed hundreds of hectares of forest, with fire-fighting helicopters unable to operate for fear of being shot down. “Who knows why the Russians did this? They destroy everything,” he said.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Sorry Pavel, but whilst NEUTRAL observers are claiming that the Russian paramilitary are doing this OUTSIDE of South Ossetia then can you only imagine what is going on INSIDE of South Ossetia where neutral observers cannot get into.

 

Remember this report came from the Independent. Which is a newspaper that was the first to cry foul play regarding the US's attempts to go to war (illegally) in Iraq.

 

Still I suppose you could argue they are doing the right thing to support a small minority country to gain independence, just like they did in recognising Chechnya & Kosovo as independent countries. :rolleyes: