right... an apology, we might well be heading into recession, the markets are still falling and the government are proping up banks with our money..

 

but tbh i dont know enough about the financial systems to start a topic. anything else would be trite lip-service.

I do find it odd that after Gordon Brown bailed out the banks he's been labelled as 'hero' and 'superhero' all over Europe yet here there barely seems to be any change of opinion. I think there are a lot of countries who'd love Gordon Brown at the this moment in time.

 

It does seem to be the housing market that's holding it back still. Last month in Britain the amount of houses sold in Britain was the lowest monthly figures since 1959! (though might be '69...) which is pretty shocking however it is now much harder to get a mortgage at the moment, although the government do want to see borrowing levels raised more towards 2007 levels again, though I'm not sure how wise it'd be. However I can't see it happening anyway as banks are now going to be more wise with their lending and it's going to be very hard to borrow more than 100% of the value of the house you're buying, whereas we had seen up to and in excess of 125% being borrowed.

 

As someone I saw on Newsnight the other night say, people buying houses has a spillover effect into the rest of the economy. They make the house their own and sort out faults (so gardners, electricians, plumbers, decorators are employed), there's also a higher chance of people buying new tvs, carpets, furniture etc when they buy a new house than at any other time, so it is causing something of a spillover effect into other parts of the economy.

Edited October 16, 200816 yr by RabbitFurCoat

I do find it odd that after Gordon Brown bailed out the banks he's been labelled as 'hero' and 'superhero' all over Europe yet here there barely seems to be any change of opinion. I think there are a lot of countries who'd love Gordon Brown at the this moment in time.

 

Well, they're welcome to have him frankly.... :lol: Broon's fiscal policy over the past decade has been largely held up as the joke that it really is, public finances are in an absolutely catastrophic state... People do hold him responsible for a lot of what's happened, not exactly without reason.. The Labour Party promised us that "boom and bust" would end, and that a far more prudent and socially responsible handling of the economy would take place; hasn't happened really, has it....? It's all very well to talk about Broon's "longest period of economic growth", but, really, how much has the ordinary person benefited out of this....? Bills and taxation has gone up, while wages in real terms have gone down... Also, the 'National Minimum Wage' has had an entirely illusory effect, we now probably have more "working poor" than at any time under Thatcher or Major...

Well, they're welcome to have him frankly.... :lol: Broon's fiscal policy over the past decade has been largely held up as the joke that it really is, public finances are in an absolutely catastrophic state... People do hold him responsible for a lot of what's happened, not exactly without reason.. The Labour Party promised us that "boom and bust" would end, and that a far more prudent and socially responsible handling of the economy would take place; hasn't happened really, has it....? It's all very well to talk about Broon's "longest period of economic growth", but, really, how much has the ordinary person benefited out of this....? Bills and taxation has gone up, while wages in real terms have gone down... Also, the 'National Minimum Wage' has had an entirely illusory effect, we now probably have more "working poor" than at any time under Thatcher or Major...

 

sometimes i wonder what planet you are on...

 

im a householder/mortgage payer. ive been so since 1983. the period 97-05 saw the most stable economic growth this country has seen since .... ever! my bills were affordable, mortgage rates were the lowest for 40 years and STABLE as was inflation... totally unlike any time since ive been a homeowner. im an ordinary working bloke, ive been well off under noo labour.

 

if theres more 'working poor' nowdays its only because johnny foreigner (:lol:) (the polish etc) are willing to work for peanuts and are undercutting our lads.

if theres more 'working poor' nowdays its only because johnny foreigner (:lol:) (the polish etc) are willing to work for peanuts and are undercutting our lads.

 

Ah yeah, this bullsh!t arguement again..... And I repeat, that NO WORKER actually has any real bargaining power when it comes to wages at the point of when they're being hired... It's set by the management/employers, and because of the Minimum Wage (which is set by the Govt), they aint actually doing anything illegal by paying out these low wages... Get that into your head mate....

 

And how the hell can people be paying lower mortgages when house prices have risen sharply over the past decade....? Maybe YOU are, but First-Time Buyers and people who bought property in the past 5 years or so, are being totally shafted, repossession orders are getting to levels that they were in the Major years.... There is a total crisis in the Property market in case you hadn't noticed, Estate Agents going under and downsizing their operations left, right and centre, you need to wake up and smell the coffee mate.... :rolleyes:

 

Does all the money being pumped into sorting the Olympics help? Seems as a lot our taxes, well not mine just yet but soon is being paid towards the banks and olympics. Probably doesn't make sense.

Does all the money being pumped into sorting the Olympics help? Seems as a lot our taxes, well not mine just yet but soon is being paid towards the banks and olympics. Probably doesn't make sense.

 

The Olympics are being paid for mainly out of the pockets of London Council Tax payers.... Something which Londoners are getting increasingly p!ssed off about as the costs rise and rise...... -_-

Ah yes that's it, I can't imagine that helping matters. But perhaps in the long run it will be better, with it bringing tourism to England? Well alot more anyway. But yes that's the way it normally goes, out of the tax payers money, and with costs rising and rising I can't not imagine people getting annoyed.

The Olympics are being paid for mainly out of the pockets of London Council Tax payers.... Something which Londoners are getting increasingly p!ssed off about as the costs rise and rise...... -_-

Try living near the Scottish Parliament building.

 

10times over budget and a good few years late. :angry:

The Olympics are being paid for mainly out of the pockets of London Council Tax payers.... Something which Londoners are getting increasingly p!ssed off about as the costs rise and rise...... -_-

 

........... but they wont be complaining at all the facilities available to them after the games <_<.

Ah yeah, this bullsh!t arguement again..... And I repeat, that NO WORKER actually has any real bargaining power when it comes to wages at the point of when they're being hired... It's set by the management/employers, and because of the Minimum Wage (which is set by the Govt), they aint actually doing anything illegal by paying out these low wages... Get that into your head mate....

 

lol.. of COURSE they dont, they are EMPLOYEES, and SHOULDNT dictate the wage! :lol:

And how the hell can people be paying lower mortgages when house prices have risen sharply over the past decade....? Maybe YOU are, but First-Time Buyers and people who bought property in the past 5 years or so, are being totally shafted, repossession orders are getting to levels that they were in the Major years.... There is a total crisis in the Property market in case you hadn't noticed, Estate Agents going under and downsizing their operations left, right and centre, you need to wake up and smell the coffee mate.... :rolleyes:

 

first time buyers have ALWAYS had a struggle on their hands, regardless of which decade they/we started.

 

yep i know there a temporary housing crisis, it WILL pass once the markets have re-aligned and settled down. its happened before and it WILL happen again.

There is too much money being spent on kickstarting the economy again. There is a minor slowdown in economy growth, and thats to do with the average Briton not having much money for shopping so the retail sector suffers. The banks may be in trouble but 400 billion that will be unlikely to ever be recovered is ridiculous. More should be done on helping people have more disposable income, after all, with more disposable income it will help the economy anyway, but helping business is unlikely to help us, unless it is banks with no guarantee on savings. Helping businesses gives too much distortion to the market, though the goverment haven't really done that yet except for part nationalising banks. But if loads of businesses go bust that have no effect on us then there will ALWAYS be something to fill the void after this is over.

Edited October 17, 200816 yr by H*rve

There is too much money being spent on kickstarting the economy again. There is a minor slowdown in economy growth, and thats to do with the average Briton not having much money for shopping so the retail sector suffers. The banks may be in trouble but 400 billion that will be unlikely to ever be recovered is ridiculous. More should be done on helping people have more disposable income, after all, with more disposable income it will help the economy anyway, but helping business is unlikely to help us, unless it is banks with no guarantee on savings. Helping businesses gives too much distortion to the market, though the goverment haven't really done that yet except for part nationalising banks. But if loads of businesses go bust that have no effect on us then there will ALWAYS be something to fill the void after this is over.

 

i dont think its a 'minor slowdown' , i believe the thinking is that if they pump billions into the economy now, then it might prevent a protracted recession.

lol.. of COURSE they dont, they are EMPLOYEES, and SHOULDNT dictate the wage! :lol:

 

So then, you've just admitted your argument was cr@p and it's all about employers exploiting the workers whether indigenous or migrant.... :rolleyes: Being self-employed as you are, you probably wouldn't know the extent to which the average employed worker in, say, retail is being sh!t upon, well, I've worked in that sector and I KNOW what goes on, employees basically treated like cattle.... <_<

 

first time buyers have ALWAYS had a struggle on their hands, regardless of which decade they/we started.

 

Not really to anything like the extent they struggle now... Buyers cant even get on the market in London and SE because of the rise in house prices, even one of my LECTURERS (earning over 35K) and his girlfriend couldn't realistically get a place because of the costs a few years back... Of course one bank offered them a 120% mortgage, but in the long run, I think we all know that it was offers such as this that that led to the "Credit Crunch" in the first place and has led to problems for homeowners, and he was savvy enough to realise that it perhaps wasn't a wise idea...

 

David Cameron is 100% correct in his criticisms of Broon, and for me to agree with a TORY would've been unthinkable a decade ago, but put it this way, in the recent party conferences, I was sure more impressed by what Cameron had to say than what Broon and his "wee wifey" (GAWWWDDDD what a truly fukkin' pathetic piece of spin that was.... :lol: :lol: ) were prattling on about... Broon bored us sh!tless for over an hour and talked absolute bollocks for most of it, Cameron actually had something to say... Not that it convinced me to actually vote for the Tories, but still....

 

Yes, Brown has been in his element the last few weeks, there is probably no other person in Britain (perhaps the world) who had a better understanding of how to avert financial meltdown, and the situation right now could be far more dire if Cameron had been in charge the last few weeks. But it looks as though the era of crisis in the financial sector is now over, and that we are instead entering slowdown in the real economy... mass unemployment and people struggling to pay the bills. The way out of that is not bookish calculations in which Brown has excelled the last few weeks, it's about who's going to help out the people who have worked hard all their life but have been put out of the work through absolutely no fault of their own. And Brown is yet to convince me that he will be on the side of the working-class. Neither has Cameron, having said that, though Clegg has maybe given some sign of it (at the Lib Dem conference, he promised tax cuts for most people in the country, at the expense of the very wealthy... however, the astounding financial changes in the last few weeks might have made that impossible). Basically, while Brown has acted admirably in the last few weeks, I just don't think those actions are going to be relevant to the phase of the crisis we are now entering.

I still think Labour will lose the next election, but I think they've avoided the wipeout it looked like it would be not so long ago, and I also think Brown has guaranteed he will leave office with somewhat of a positive legacy.

And yes, saying that this was a "minor slowdown" shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. Even the most tentative of economists agree that, had the major world leaders not taken action, there was a very real chance of capitalism imploding. Something needed to be done.

Yes, Brown has been in his element the last few weeks, there is probably no other person in Britain (perhaps the world) who had a better understanding of how to avert financial meltdown,

 

If Broon is so bloody great, then howcome this sh!t has happened on his watch...? I mean, sorry, it's all very well to blame the Americans for it all, but financial institutions in this country were engaging in the same sort of 'fast and loose' irresponsibility as their US counterparts, Broon oversaw ALL of this and did nothing to reign these people in, all very well to Nationalise the Northern Rock, Bradford and Bingley and stop Short-Selling, but those actions are a wee bit like bolting the gate after the horse has buggered off halfway to the next village if you ask me... He allowed the same sort of shameful Capitalistic excesses as Lawson, Lamont, Major, et al - the very people that Broon and the Labour party vehemently criticised in opposition - for the best part of 10 years.... It just proves to me that nothing ever changes, that the two "big parties" are just as bad as each other.. I dunno, maybe Capitalism does need to implode.... :rolleyes:

 

In the last issue of Private Eye, they put a picture of Osama Bin Laden with the caption "I should have become a Merchant Banker".... I think you get the point they're making here....

I never said Brown wasn't to blame for the situation. While I do think we would have suffered a recession regardless, Brown's high-risk actions as Chancellor, while they brought us greater short-term prosperity, have probably made this recession deeper than it would've been otherwise. However, I was just giving credit where credit is due - even if Brown has contributed to the situation, he has still handled it magnificently in the last few weeks.

I'll assume you weren't being serious when you said capitalism should be left to implode. I mean, come on - you know the effects of that would be catastrophic.

I'll assume you weren't being serious when you said capitalism should be left to implode. I mean, come on - you know the effects of that would be catastrophic.

 

I'm very much Anti-Captitalist by politics and by nature Danny, my own political views are based upon Marxism, real Democracy and Radical Restructuralism, I freely admit to being a bit of an Anarchist (as a philosophy) to be honest... So, would I like to see the system as it stands at the moment fall in on itself....? Well, it wouldn't exactly bother me, let's put it like that.... If Capitalism could curb its excesses and its completely unjust nature, then I would support it, but, like I say, as it stands, it does not serve the interests of the majority, it only serves the greed of a tiny minority... Look at the thread that Infinity 2008 has put up on the US $700 bn bail-out. Follow the link to the Guardian article.... So much for accountability and curbing the pay of the execs who caused this cr@p in the first place.....

 

Even the founder of modern Economics/Capitalism, Adam Smith, would NEVER countenance such rash irresponsibility and blind, stupid greed within the markets.... He was a Moral Philosopher who wanted to create a better model for doing business, it was NEVER about "greed is good" for him.... The Thatcherites and Neo Liberals who formed the Adam Smith Institute completely perverted his works for their own ends, in pretty much the same way that the likes of Stalin and Mao perverted Marxism....