A word about the ice cap melting.

 

The worlds sea levels wouldn't rise a single millimetre if the entire Arctic ice cap was too melt, along with the ice shelfs in Antarctica.

 

 

The green brigade forgot that ice displaces its weight in the water. So when it melts, the water it creates fills the gap in the water left by the ice.

 

If you were to take the ice sheets and the Ice Cap in the Arctic and completely remove them from the ocean. [put them on dry land or blast it into space, just too help picture them gone, without melting] The sea level would drop.

 

If you remove the ice without it having melted into the ocean then the level would drop quite substantially.

 

If Greenland or the mainland of Antarctica started to melt, then yes, sea levels would rise but not by the large amount quoted by the green brigade.

A word about the ice cap melting.

 

The worlds sea levels wouldn't rise a single millimetre if the entire Arctic ice cap was too melt, along with the ice shelfs in Antarctica.

The green brigade forgot that ice displaces its weight in the water. So when it melts, the water it creates fills the gap in the water left by the ice.

 

If you were to take the ice sheets and the Ice Cap in the Arctic and completely remove them from the ocean. [put them on dry land or blast it into space, just too help picture them gone, without melting] The sea level would drop.

 

If you remove the ice without it having melted into the ocean then the level would drop quite substantially.

 

If Greenland or the mainland of Antarctica started to melt, then yes, sea levels would rise but not by the large amount quoted by the green brigade.

Lmfao of course it would. Firstly because water expands when it warms up, and secondly because even some sea ice is above sea level, not to mention nearly all ice with bedrock below it (land ice). And Greenland has a highest point of 3,400m. If all ice were to melt then sea levels could rise by about 100m, but that isn't going to happen. Even if polar regions have warmed 5 times as much as the rest of the world, they still are nowhere near having temperatures above zero being the norm. So yes some environmentallists do fearmonger a little too much. It's mainly increased coastal flooding that'll be the problem in the next century.

Edited April 6, 200916 yr by Harve

Do remember that Ice is a lot larger than water. If you freeze water in a bottle it expands.

Do remember that Ice is a lot larger than water. If you freeze water in a bottle it expands.

Insignificant when you consider that most sea ice is only a few metres thick. The entire depth of oceans aren't frozen solid! However, ice over land is normally hundreds of metres thick.

which is why i'm only talking about the ice that covers water. That ice when it melts won't cause an increase in the sea level.

 

Greenland alone could have a big effect. but that and Antarctica melting would require a large shift in temp upwards.

 

The average temps there are still very very cold. Cold enough to keep the ice.

 

 

The ice at the Arctic circle expands and contracts during the year. During the winter you can walk to Russia from Alaska and then across from Russia/Lapland to Canada.

 

During the summer it melts back without any change to the sea level.

which is why i'm only talking about the ice that covers water. That ice when it melts won't cause an increase in the sea level.

 

Greenland alone could have a big effect. but that and Antarctica melting would require a large shift in temp upwards.

 

The average temps there are still very very cold. Cold enough to keep the ice.

The ice at the Arctic circle expands and contracts during the year. During the winter you can walk to Russia from Alaska and then across from Russia/Lapland to Canada.

 

During the summer it melts back without any change to the sea level.

Yes i agree with most of that post. The ice you are talking about isn't very much though. And the highest recorded temperature in Antartica is 14.6C but getting above zero is extremely rare, only a few days a year. So no, Greenland and Antartica are unlikely to melt significantly and therefore sea levels are unlikely to completely flood more than a few thousand people in the next century. I don't know why we're 'arguing' when we both basically agree, makes the last few posts a bit pointless. :lol:

i thnk there has been a little misunderstanding lol

 

I wouldn't say the ice up the north pole is small, it covers a massive area

i thnk there has been a little misunderstanding lol

 

I wouldn't say the ice up the north pole is small, it covers a massive area

Sure, but it's like paper compared to the volume of all the oceans of the world and the land ice, which are pretty big themselves.

Agreed, the worlds oceans are very vast.

 

Thanks for commenting on my half finished chart lol, my internet went mental halfway through. The full version is up now :lol:

water expands when it freezes, significantly, thats why pipes burst and ice floats.

 

'the fear' is right, if the icecaps did melt the effect would be minimal on sea levels. plus if it was that much warmer there would be more evaporation so there would be more cloud....which would cool the atmosphere!

:mellow:

 

I can't believe how many people are denying global warming.

But the solar variation cycle is over a decade, whilst global warming is , and varies by a less than 0.1%, so it isn't going to have much effect at all.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...-cycle-data.png

 

Admittedly, there is some correlation between solar variation and temperature, but it does seem that CO2 is having a greater effect yes?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7...sunspot-co2.svg

Sorry the forum is being retarded and won't let me display the image "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this board. A valid format is: http://www.domain.com/picture.gif, an invalid format is: http://www.domain.com/picture.one.gif" :huh: all the extensions have one dot after the final slash. :unsure:

Oh it certainly is. The growing of grapes in Newcastle etc. is through short term variation, admittedly what we are going through is very much short term change but with long term consequences. And even if in Roman times temperatures were 2c higher (were they, how would they record that? Where did you get that info from? :blink:), that would not show up on the graph properly because the timescales are too big, hence the blue line shows that the temperature last increased a lot between 20,000 and 30,000 years ago, and the recent warming is over just 150 years and not enough to even register on the graph. He was obviously making a point with the CO2 which is why it is an almost vertical line, it actually shouldn't even be there yet.

....which are less significant than manmade global warming.

I think that the earth will recover relatively shortly, but human's will not :P. Not trying to sound too dramatic or anything :P, but at the end of the day it is ultimately US we are putting in danger. The earth has been through worse -_-

 

erm...im NOT denying global warming, im denying MAN MADE global warming.

 

2c in roman times is a guestimate as grape vines need higher temps to be effectively grown, plus pollen samples from sediments strongly suggest that warmer climate speciese flourished.

erm...im NOT denying global warming, im denying MAN MADE global warming.

 

2c in roman times is a guestimate as grape vines need higher temps to be effectively grown, plus pollen samples from sediments strongly suggest that warmer climate speciese flourished.

I know. Solar variation is natural, CO2 emissions rise are almost all manmade. And CO2 emissions and temperature have a stronger correlation than solar variation and temperature, yes?

I know. Solar variation is natural, CO2 emissions rise are almost all manmade. And CO2 emissions and temperature have a stronger correlation than solar variation and temperature, yes?

 

no.

 

that is not what sedimentary evidence suggests.

 

tbh i dont know why this whole co2 debate has only just cropped up now... the industrial revolution was 250 years ago, surely co2 would have risen gradually since.... but it hasnt. only 40 years ago every house was heated by coal and had been for centuaries, why didnt this impact? yes theres more cars on the road, yes theres less coal being burnt!

Just to get back on topic folks.....

 

G20 death man's son seeks answers

BBC News

 

 

The family of a man who died at London's G20 protests have demanded answers after video footage showed a policeman shoving him to the ground.

Ian Tomlinson, 47, who was walking home from work, suffered a heart attack several minutes after walking away from being pushed in central London.

 

His stepson, Paul King, 27, told the BBC the family "want justice".

 

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said an independent police inquiry needed to be completed as soon as possible.

 

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which is carrying out the inquiry, will examine the video footage showing Mr Tomlinson being pushed to the ground.

 

There was no reason for the officer to push him down

 

Paul King

 

The video, shot at 1929 BST at the Royal Exchange Passage, initially shows Mr Tomlinson, who was going home from work and not protesting, walking away from a group of police officers.

 

Footage shows that he then received a two-handed push from an officer, landing heavily before remonstrating with the police.

 

Minutes later Mr Tomlinson collapsed and died of a heart attack, after walking to nearby Cornhill where he received first aid from police.

 

Mr King told BBC Radio 5: "For the sake of the family here and his kids we just want justice ... you know, until everything does come out and we do get the evidence we need, we can't lay our father to rest."

 

Reacting to the video, he said: "You can clearly see that my Dad Ian had his hands in his pockets with his head down walking away.

 

"So there was no reason for the officer to push him down. If he did do something wrong, then why not arrest him in the beginning?

 

"We want answers now. You know, it's only minutes after Ian collapsed and had the heart attack."

 

 

 

David Howarth says the video is ''plainly an assault'' on Mr Tomlinson

A New York fund manager recorded the footage, believed to be the last showing Mr Tomlinson alive.

 

He said he came forward with the video because the vendor's family "were not getting any answers".

 

The Liberal Democrats are now demanding a criminal inquiry.

 

The party's justice spokesman, David Howarth, said the footage showed a "sickening and unprovoked attack" by police.

 

Daniel Sandford, BBC Home Affairs correspondent, said of the footage: "This is now going to raise some more serious questions about the police behaviour on that night.

 

"Why is it that one of the officers walks up to a man who appears to be walking away from him?"

 

Sometimes it isn't clear, as a police officer, who is a protester and who is not

 

Peter Smyth of the Met Police Federation

 

Peter Smyth, chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, said some physical confrontation was inevitable during a large protest.

 

He told Radio 4's Today programme: "On a day like that, where there are some protesters who are quite clearly hell-bent on causing as much trouble as they can, there is inevitably going to be some physical confrontation."

 

He added: "Sometimes it isn't clear, as a police officer, who is a protester and who is not.

 

"I know it's a generalisation but anybody in that part of the town at that time, the assumption would be that they are part of the protest.

 

"I accept that's perhaps not a clever assumption but it's a natural one."

 

The Guardian newspaper obtained the video and has handed it to the IPCC.

 

Ms Smith said: "I'm glad the IPCC themselves called for further evidence in order to be able to do that investigation as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

 

"And if it identifies - and I can understand people's concerns - if it identifies the need for a criminal investigation, that then also needs to be pursued".

 

A spokeswoman for the IPCC said: "We have recovered video footage from a national newspaper last night. We are now in the process of analysing it, along with the other evidence we have obtained on the case."

 

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said it would not be appropriate to comment while the IPCC investigation was continuing.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, apparently not so much "unfortunate accident" like I thought, more like heart attack being induced after a totally unprovoked assault by the fukkin' PIGS........ :angry: :angry:

 

Er, well, now we actually know WHY the cops were having sh!t thrown at them.... The protestors clearly saw the assault take place, and more than likely thought the Filth were gonna kick him about while he was on the ground, not exactly the first time the Filth would've done such a thing let's face it.....

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/busine...g20/7988812.stm - the footage clearly shows the guy walking away from the police, hands in pockets, presenting absolutely no threat to police....

 

So, come on Rob, what you gotta say about this sh!t now.....? <_< UTTERLY FUKKIN' OUTRAGEOUS police action in a supposedly "free" country IMO.... This Pig should be up on a fukkin' MANSLAUGHTER charge....

 

Not that I'm exactly holding my breath, they shot Jean Charles De Menezes and blatantly lied about the circumstances of the shooting and got away with THAT one didn't they....? So, this guy's family are probably about as likely to get justice as the De Menezes family <_<

 

In the words of Dead Kennedys singer Jello Biafra - "You can get away with murder if you got a badge...."

I find it pretty funny that people decided to vandalise RBS are going to be footing the bill to repair it, since it's government-owned. And that the bankers were waving £50 notes above them LOL. I love IB'ers :wub: Though i'm probably biased in that respect since it's a career route i'm looking into.

 

It wasn't 'bankers' but the actions of few, perhaps not even 1/2% of the total RBS workforce in the UK, which led to its demise; there is absolutely no need to tar everyone who works in the industry with the same brush, its moronic. The way to protesters were acting, burning hanging dummies dressed like a banker, it's digusting. I have neither sympathy, nor respect for the protesters. Socialism won't work, it won't be implemented. In times of economic/political worries, people always turn to more extreme views, and it dies down. Like i've said before, communism died hard a long time ago. Stop flogging a dead horse. Capitalism is the best route, imo. I'd rather have a world where there's a chance for me to make a $h!tload of money, than everyone being equal. If the bankers work hard, why shouldn't they be rewarded? They work bitch hours, sleep in the office and work on weekends. The country would be a lot poorer without the bankers.

 

Genuine Socialism is not an "extreme" view, and frankly, I think the correct people ARE being targeted, the protestors aren't "unfairly" targeting the banks and politicians at all in my book - the banks CAUSED this problem, the Politicians through their incompetence and inaction in any kind of stringent regulation, EXACERBATED the problem.. All these fukkers - the city boys, top bankers and greedy politicos - were like "old boys" together with their snouts in the trough, getting their piece and screwing the little guy, this is NOT like Hitler targeting the Jews in Nazi Germany and scapegoating them for all of Germany's economic woes in the 30s, which is what I presume you are referring to. You've no respect for the protestors, fair enough, I've no respect for bankers or politicians, so we're going to have to agree to disagree..... In my opinion, it is really Socialism which looks out for the best interests of the majority, ie, the working classes...... Capitalism only looks out for the interests of the elites.... Mortgages are just another method of debt, of getting people under control and supporting the system, people with mortgages are unlikely to stand against the powers-that-be or protest because they're scared of losing their homes....

 

I believe in social housing to benefit everyone whether rich or poor, not privatised accommodation..... I'd never "buy" a house under the current mortgage system, I'd only ever buy a house if I won the Lottery or summat, and could pay for it outright, so I wouldn't be a slave to the banks and the mortgage interest rates... It's the abuse of that mortgage system which has led chiefly to all our problems.... People seem to forget that all this chaos was precipitated by banks happily giving out sub-prime mortgages, and it wasn't just in the US, the likes of Northern Rock and the others were at it as well... Contrast this to the banking system in France of Germany, where if you want to buy a house, you're bloody lucky if you even get a 40 or 50 percent mortgage.... You have to SHOW that you can afford a loan or mortgage.... And all this fukkin' "toxic debt" sh!t as well... Again, this has been caused by the stupidity of banks who cant even keep a simple system of double book-keeping, preferring instead to come up with these idiotically elaborate systems which most of them dont even understand.....

 

I would have far less of a problem with banks if we all went back to a more "old skool" banking system as existed 40, 50 years ago.... The high street banks who administer to the interests of the ordinary working man should NOT be playing fast and loose on the world markets..... There was a guy who manages a Hedge Fund, a financial expert, who did a documentary on Channel 4 basically saying that the problems of the City should never, EVER be allowed to affect the high street banking system....

no.

 

that is not what sedimentary evidence suggests.

 

tbh i dont know why this whole co2 debate has only just cropped up now... the industrial revolution was 250 years ago, surely co2 would have risen gradually since.... but it hasnt. only 40 years ago every house was heated by coal and had been for centuaries, why didnt this impact? yes theres more cars on the road, yes theres less coal being burnt!

Yeah the industrial revolution in Europe and NA started 175 years ago. China is still industrialising aswell as India. The population of the world was about 1.5bn when the industrial revolution happened.

 

Sorry for going off topic...

The population of the world was about 1.5bn when the industrial revolution happened.

 

EXACTLY...

 

And there were no cars either back then, so, you're only talking about the mills pumping toxins into the atmosphere, as opposed to millions of cars, planes, etc.... Also, no such thing as intensive factory farming, no McDonald's, no Burger King cutting down huge swathes of rain forest to breed millions upon millions of cows (so considerably less methane being produced) to create processed meat to feed an ever-growing population, which barely stood at a fraction of what it is now....

 

Over-population and our disrespect of the balance of nature is what's creating the problems imo, "Climate Change", if it exists, isn't even the main problem, overpopulation leading to greater depletions of the earth's resources is.....

Just to get back on topic folks.....

 

G20 death man's son seeks answers

BBC News

The family of a man who died at London's G20 protests have demanded answers after video footage showed a policeman shoving him to the ground.

Ian Tomlinson, 47, who was walking home from work, suffered a heart attack several minutes after walking away from being pushed in central London.

 

His stepson, Paul King, 27, told the BBC the family "want justice".

 

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said an independent police inquiry needed to be completed as soon as possible.

 

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which is carrying out the inquiry, will examine the video footage showing Mr Tomlinson being pushed to the ground.

 

There was no reason for the officer to push him down

 

Paul King

 

The video, shot at 1929 BST at the Royal Exchange Passage, initially shows Mr Tomlinson, who was going home from work and not protesting, walking away from a group of police officers.

 

Footage shows that he then received a two-handed push from an officer, landing heavily before remonstrating with the police.

 

Minutes later Mr Tomlinson collapsed and died of a heart attack, after walking to nearby Cornhill where he received first aid from police.

 

Mr King told BBC Radio 5: "For the sake of the family here and his kids we just want justice ... you know, until everything does come out and we do get the evidence we need, we can't lay our father to rest."

 

Reacting to the video, he said: "You can clearly see that my Dad Ian had his hands in his pockets with his head down walking away.

 

"So there was no reason for the officer to push him down. If he did do something wrong, then why not arrest him in the beginning?

 

"We want answers now. You know, it's only minutes after Ian collapsed and had the heart attack."

David Howarth says the video is ''plainly an assault'' on Mr Tomlinson

A New York fund manager recorded the footage, believed to be the last showing Mr Tomlinson alive.

 

He said he came forward with the video because the vendor's family "were not getting any answers".

 

The Liberal Democrats are now demanding a criminal inquiry.

 

The party's justice spokesman, David Howarth, said the footage showed a "sickening and unprovoked attack" by police.

 

Daniel Sandford, BBC Home Affairs correspondent, said of the footage: "This is now going to raise some more serious questions about the police behaviour on that night.

 

"Why is it that one of the officers walks up to a man who appears to be walking away from him?"

 

Sometimes it isn't clear, as a police officer, who is a protester and who is not

 

Peter Smyth of the Met Police Federation

 

Peter Smyth, chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, said some physical confrontation was inevitable during a large protest.

 

He told Radio 4's Today programme: "On a day like that, where there are some protesters who are quite clearly hell-bent on causing as much trouble as they can, there is inevitably going to be some physical confrontation."

 

He added: "Sometimes it isn't clear, as a police officer, who is a protester and who is not.

 

"I know it's a generalisation but anybody in that part of the town at that time, the assumption would be that they are part of the protest.

 

"I accept that's perhaps not a clever assumption but it's a natural one."

 

The Guardian newspaper obtained the video and has handed it to the IPCC.

 

Ms Smith said: "I'm glad the IPCC themselves called for further evidence in order to be able to do that investigation as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

 

"And if it identifies - and I can understand people's concerns - if it identifies the need for a criminal investigation, that then also needs to be pursued".

 

A spokeswoman for the IPCC said: "We have recovered video footage from a national newspaper last night. We are now in the process of analysing it, along with the other evidence we have obtained on the case."

 

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said it would not be appropriate to comment while the IPCC investigation was continuing.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, apparently not so much "unfortunate accident" like I thought, more like heart attack being induced after a totally unprovoked assault by the fukkin' PIGS........ :angry: :angry:

 

Er, well, now we actually know WHY the cops were having sh!t thrown at them.... The protestors clearly saw the assault take place, and more than likely thought the Filth were gonna kick him about while he was on the ground, not exactly the first time the Filth would've done such a thing let's face it.....

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/busine...g20/7988812.stm - the footage clearly shows the guy walking away from the police, hands in pockets, presenting absolutely no threat to police....

 

So, come on Rob, what you gotta say about this sh!t now.....? <_< UTTERLY FUKKIN' OUTRAGEOUS police action in a supposedly "free" country IMO.... This Pig should be up on a fukkin' MANSLAUGHTER charge....

 

Not that I'm exactly holding my breath, they shot Jean Charles De Menezes and blatantly lied about the circumstances of the shooting and got away with THAT one didn't they....? So, this guy's family are probably about as likely to get justice as the De Menezes family <_<

 

In the words of Dead Kennedys singer Jello Biafra - "You can get away with murder if you got a badge...."

 

well if you lots hadnt been rioting the filth wouldnt have been there in the first place! so its YOUR fault!

 

of course its totally reprihensible , ive seen the vid on bbc news and there was NO justification for the police to push him to the ground... i mean, it didnt get him out of their way any quicker did it!

 

but soberly.... it WAS just very unfortunate that this guy had a dicky ticker, as a push like that wouldnt result in the death of an ordinary middle aged bloke. yes the police should be prosecuted for his actions..... but then again so should the yobs who were smashing windows...

well if you lots hadnt been rioting the filth wouldnt have been there in the first place! so its YOUR fault!

 

Oh PLEASE, that's just so typical... Blame people who are merely exercising the right to protest, because of course it was them who hit the guy with a truncheon and pushed him to ground roughly without provocation innit.....? :rolleyes: You dont think that TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS should act with a tad more restraint and self fukkin' control......? The reason they DONT is pretty obvious, people like you and the fukkin' media continually make excuses for them, and the courts just let them off the hook, so it's pretty obvious that a culture has developed within the Met police in which they seem to think that they can act in this manner upon the citizens of London with utter impunity.... <_< <_<

 

The "riots" only happened in one very specific area, there was really nothing going on anywhere else..... $h!t, even Billy Bragg was getting out there and entertaining the crowd, it was all pretty good natured where I was, but I dont criticise the people who attacked RBS or went on the roof of the Bank of England, it's a legit target imo.....

 

The "yobs" only smashed up property, they did NOT physically attack bank employees in any way, shape or form, there was not even an attempt to attack employees at RBS, the building, not people, were targeted.... BIG FUKKIN' DIFFERENCE..... <_<

 

And, well, let's just see who's the most likely to end up being up before the Court on a charge.... I'll bet you tenner right here and now it's the protestors who smashed a couple of windows at the RBS and Fred the Shred's gaff, and not the fukkin' Police who were responsible for that bloke dying who end up going down..... <_<

 

A few windows are somehow more important than a man's life are they....? Great priorities we have in this country..... <_<

Does PIGS stand for anything in particular, except for Portugal, Italy, Greece & Spain? :unsure:

 

That was really disgusting tbh. That really is manslaughter in broad daylight. What was also disgusting was vandalising the RBS bank, although of course it had a motive and wasn't as bad as the manslaughter, but it did involve more barbaric activity. What did that actually ACHIEVE? Except for showing people's anger at the situation? The riots didn't achieve anything apart from giving another thing for the daily mail to moan at/ find another way to get at the bankers/goverment :rolleyes: (not that i'm "siding" with them in any way)