It is not just income tax though

 

On top of income tax there is National Insurance, add 10-15% on top of the 50% then when you have factored in things like stealth taxes the guy earning £150k a year is going to see around 1/4 of his money, at 150k a year he very likely has a mortgage to pay and school fees to pay so the idea that everyone on £150k a year is super rich is a nonsense, look at how much of his 150k is used up it is not just about income tax, take away the new income tax rate and NI and other costs a guy earning 150k a year is going to see maybe 40k of it at best and has to pay mortgate and other expenses out of that

 

Fair ?

 

And Tyron your point about an equal society, it is not meant to be an equal society, life is about winners and losers, survival of the fittest

Come on, you know as well as I do that there is an upper earnings limit for NI - currently £844 per week. Above that, you pay 1%, not 11%.

 

And, of course, there's a simple way of avoiding school fees. After all, the vast majority of parents manage it.

 

You're just trying to mislead people in the same way that the right-wing press do and convince people that huge numbers of people will be affected by these tax rises. They won't. 50% of people are paid less than £23000 per year.

There needs to be a welfare state, but it needs to be a slimmed down welfare state that results in more money for those in desperate need and those with real disabilities and pensioners but no money for those that take the p***, won't make the effort to work, are faking illness or milking illness to stay permanantly on sickness benefit and so on, I want to see welfare money going to the RIGHT people and have no objection to those people getting more, what I want to see is those that take the p*** and make no effort to find work (dare I say Crazy Chris types) forced into work

 

Tens of billions could be saved off the welfare state bill while at the same time giving extra to those in GENUINE need

I agree with this, but how can you tell the scroungers from those in need? Let's not forget that Crazy Chris himself has been medically certified as being incapable of working...

 

I would actually claim that the best way of destroying this trio of problems - benefit scroungers, climate change, and the recession - could possibly be easier than we think. Green New Deal anyone? Why could we not pay people to double-glaze and insulate every house in the nation?

Every company that is in operation in this country bar the civil service and public sector was at some point set up by an entrepreneur, your employer, my clients, everyone here who does not work in the public sector is employed by an entrepreneur who some time over the years probably made big sacrifices and put in 20 hr days to build up his business, I have no objection whatsoever to him enjoying his money and earning a large wage, this country needs to have an enterprise culture and therefore part of the enterprise culture is REWARDING risk

Yes - and I would say half of your wage after taxes if you're earning £500K+ a year is one hell of a reward! :rolleyes:

I think most people could easily get by on 40K a year after tax, considering someone on 40K a year before tax is considered very well off by most :rolleyes: Very fair.

 

And I'm not suggesting an EQUAL society, because I know that doesn't work - I am suggesting a MORE equal society on a par with that of Scandinavia. And your final line is f***ing laughable mate, I can't believe you think that's a serious ideology...since Thatcher, the rich have generally been born and stayed rich; the poor have generally been born and stayed poor. Why do you think reality TV is so popular amongst the poor all of a sudden when it's the most high-profile way out for most?! Would you prefer a generally happy and contented society with the richest earning no more than 10 times that of the poorest, or a disgustingly atavistic society where the super-rich feast on the subsidies of the poor, but it's alright because it's a 'survival of the fittest'? :manson: Hell, why don't we just go the whole f***ing hog and dismantle the whole welfare system and declare hereditary rule again! :rolleyes:

 

Under your system then Tyron we would have Richard Branson and Alan Sugar earning 10 times more than a cleaner on minimum wage, that is unrealistic mate

Under your system then Tyron we would have Richard Branson and Alan Sugar earning 10 times more than a cleaner on minimum wage, that is unrealistic mate

Obviously it would be impossible to actually implement universally, but it is basically manageable - and would you consider 160K really all that bad off? :P

Yes - but are you telling me that someone with £50,000 left over AFTER tax won't be well off? :rolleyes:

 

I don't think you can tax your way out of a recession. It's dangerous, and there are many other helpful ways of tackling such a crisis. For example, taking chavs, who have a job, off the dole. You're guaranteed to save millions. :P

 

I also don't think it's fair that a Brain Surgeon, who saves lives on a daily basis, will be bringing in less (or the same amount of) money than a Politician. Politics is a great profession, a very useful one, but saving lives is by far the most rewarding in my book. If I'm currently a brain surgeon with a wife/husband, three kids with private education, a huge mortgage, and two cars to run, then I'd be a bit pissed off that I'm now only getting £50,000 a year for doing twice the amount of work as a corrupt Politician. You could argue the 'corrupt' part, but in today's world, most are as bad as each other.

 

That may sound a bit snobby, but I think a brain surgeon (who spent thousands of pounds funding their twelve years getting to their preferred profession with countless sleepless nights and 48-hour shifts) to then get the same pay as a Politician (who spends 6 years getting to their preferred profession with 10 hours of work a day who receives numerous bank-handers) is a tad bit unfair.

 

It may work differently in the UK, but if I was being taxed for somebody else's selfishness while I worked my ass off, then I'd be rightly f***ed off.

 

But, then again, I'm out of the loop as regards everything UK, so I may just be seeing black and white. :)

I don't think you can tax your way out of a recession. It's dangerous, and there are many other helpful ways of tackling such a crisis. For example, taking chavs, who have a job, off the dole. You're guaranteed to save millions. :P

 

I also don't think it's fair that a Brain Surgeon, who saves lives on a daily basis, will be bringing in less (or the same amount of) money than a Politician. Politics is a great profession, a very useful one, but saving lives is by far the most rewarding in my book. If I'm currently a brain surgeon with a wife/husband, three kids with private education, a huge mortgage, and two cars to run, then I'd be a bit pissed off that I'm now only getting �50,000 a year for doing twice the amount of work as a corrupt Politician. You could argue the 'corrupt' part, but in today's world, most are as bad as each other.

 

That may sound a bit snobby, but I think a brain surgeon (who spent thousands of pounds funding their twelve years getting to their preferred profession with countless sleepless nights and 48-hour shifts) to then get the same pay as a Politician (who spends 6 years getting to their preferred profession with 10 hours of work a day who receives numerous bank-handers) is a tad bit unfair.

 

It may work differently in the UK, but if I was being taxed for somebody else's selfishness while I worked my ass off, then I'd be rightly f***ed off.

 

But, then again, I'm out of the loop as regards everything UK, so I may just be seeing black and white. :)

That first point is disastrous for our society. If they have a job, they won't be on the dole anyway - I think you're referring to tax credits, which help ensure that these people actually get enough money to survive in today's climate. Things will be harder for the super-rich, but I don't think resolving the problem by removing benefits from the poor is ANY way to try and repair the crisis. How do we define a chav anyway? Someone who happens to be poor? :rolleyes: I really am beginning to object to this whole genericising of the underclass as feral chavs who need exterminating...I thought a key tenet of chavs was that they didn't have work anyway? :P And this tax increase on a group that isn't too badly affected by the recession (as opposed to the poor and lower-middle class for whom it has been disastrous) is set to save us billions. Utilitarianism dictates that making times a little harder for the tiny minority to ease things for the vast majority is the better option, no? The only way I can see this badly affecting the majority is on an individual basis - laid off maids etc. -_-

 

I don't think many politicans get backhanders these days :P You could argue on the whole taxpayer claimants bit...and your whole point has nothing to do with tax. Politicians don't actually earn the same amount as brain surgeons anyway - MPs are paid an annual salary of £63,291, plus allowances for the costs of running an office. While they don't pay taxes, they run the system that ensures we actually have brain surgeons to save us in the first place - although I agree with your resentment that brain surgeons don't pay more. Politicians work a LOT more than you claim as well - there is no way they only work 10 hours a day! For most they're at Westminster until about 11pm, starting early in the morning...

 

And it's only 350,000 people (who earn 150K+ - it turns out it's not 100K+, so you'll have 75K left over after!) who are affected by this - and a majority of these are the greedy ones responsible for this mess! (Bankers, hedge fundies etc.) Those who earn below 150K aren't having their taxes adjusted at all...

 

And I find it laughable that you're claiming that they have 'only' £50,000 left after tax! There are some people who manage the private education with two cars and a mortgage thing pretty well with that kinda money BEFORE tax...

My folks can run two cars, pay a mortgage, feed the family etc just fine on £33k pre tax. My Mum, Dad and little sister have just spent two weeks in Portugal, and there considering going back with me in September.

 

So to say these people won't cope with £50k post tax is stupidity.

 

On my own, i earned about £6.5k this year, i have about 4k left to pay my rent for next year, then when i get back to the UK two months work'll give me enough money to pay bills and feed myself without a student loan.

 

I may get a loan if my Mum does get a new car so i can buy hers from her and then insure it.

 

You can get by on f*** all, students make an art form out of it. So those complaining about a tax rise that'll no doubt be temporary [until the Torries first budget no doubt] can learn to live like the rest of us for a while.

I don't think many politicans get backhanders these days :P You could argue on the whole taxpayer claimants bit...and your whole point has nothing to do with tax. Politicians don't actually earn the same amount as brain surgeons anyway - MPs are paid an annual salary of £63,291, plus allowances for the costs of running an office. While they don't pay taxes, they run the system that ensures we actually have brain surgeons to save us in the first place - although I agree with your resentment that brain surgeons don't pay more. Politicians work a LOT more than you claim as well - there is no way they only work 10 hours a day! For most they're at Westminster until about 11pm, starting early in the morning...

MPs pay tax on their salary in the same way as the rest of us.

talk about twisting what I said. Of course I don't suggest that -_-

 

Just seems rather coincidental the news came today when The Budget was on, like the Police hope it'll slide under the news radar, whilst everyone worries about their beer, cigarettes, and petrol :lol:

I wasn't trying to twist what you said, just to get clarification. If there is any evidence to suggest that they deliberately timed the releases for today they could find themselves being hammered buy the press again. As if they haven't messed up enough over the last few weeks.

Where did I say that these people "couldn't cope" with £50,000? I said it's unfair to have to hand over a large chunk of your earnings for Government and Bank feck-ups. The people who CAUSED this mess should be dealt with separately, victims shouldn't be TAXED for other's greediness.

 

Taxing your way out of a recession isn't the right thing to do. They're doing it over here too, and it's going to screw the country up even more in the long run. Suicide, homelessness etc. will all rise when you start raising your taxes. People won't be able to afford it, they'll lose their house, their assets, and with many cases in the US and Japan, they'll take their own lives.

 

I have an English cousin living in England, who tells me that "Chavs*" in her area get paid PLENTY of money from their jobs, yet they get the weekly dole, they then spend their spare time spraying walls and causing damage to public and Government property, then costing the tax payer millions of pounds. Playing the welfare system is easily done. There are people out there who actually NEED the dole to SURVIVE, but are now waiting months for a yes or no answer because the system is blocked up thanks to people claiming the dole when they don't NEED it. It's happening here, too, and it's a disgrace. I have a job. It's a few hours a day, but it's good. People are asking why I'm not on the dole. I tell them I don't NEED to be on part-time dole, let alone the full dole.

 

*Chavs = Teens (be it 13 or 18) who break windows of post offices and intimidate residents. I don't think I ever implied that they were "poor", nor do I think they are. Many people need the dole, many other's don't. And from what my cousin tells me, the "chavs" in her area don't need the dole. I used "chavs" as an example, sorry if you thought I was being nasty, I wasn't.

 

Of course politicians are given backhanders. The local politician where I used to live was given €10,000 CASH to fast track certain planning permission applications by bankers and other politicians. And if he didn't accept the money, the politician's shady financial past would come to light. That's a typical backhander.

 

From my own personal experiences, taxing the people who've earned their high salary isn't fair. It's happening to a few family members and they're going through a rough time (I won't give details, but it's rough) . They don't deserve it. They always pay their tax, and they've paid bills, mortgage repayments, and VAT returns, and now they have to pay MORE? Greedy bankers should have to pay as they caused this mess. But no, they're getting away scott-free. Hardly fair now, is it? :blink:

 

 

I have an English cousin living in England, who tells me that "Chavs*" in her area get paid PLENTY of money from their jobs, yet they get the weekly dole, they then spend their spare time spraying walls and causing damage to public and Government property, then costing the tax payer millions of pounds. Playing the welfare system is easily done. There are people out there who actually NEED the dole to SURVIVE, but are now waiting months for a yes or no answer because the system is blocked up thanks to people claiming the dole when they don't NEED it. It's happening here, too, and it's a disgrace. I have a job. It's a few hours a day, but it's good. People are asking why I'm not on the dole. I tell them I don't NEED to be on part-time dole, let alone the full dole.

I think your cousin is confused. "Dole" is jobseeker's allowance - or unemployment benefit as it used to be called. If these people have jobs, they are not entitled to any "dole" money.

I think your cousin is confused. "Dole" is jobseeker's allowance - or unemployment benefit as it used to be called. If these people have jobs, they are not entitled to any "dole" money.

 

That's what I'm saying, though. You can get around the system and go on the dole even if you have a job. That's the example I was using. Take them off the dole if they already have a job. :)

 

EDIT: I was looking at the rest of the budget and it's very good! The opposition over here proposed most of what you guys have now implemented (or going to implement), but it was rejected by the main party, so it would be good to see if it works. :D

Edited April 23, 200916 yr by Cal

That's what I'm saying, though. You can get around the system and go on the dole even if you have a job. That's the example I was using. Take them off the dole if they already have a job. :)

 

EDIT: I was looking at the rest of the budget and it's very good! The opposition over here proposed most of what you guys have now implemented (or going to implement), but it was rejected by the main party, so it would be good to see if it works. :D

 

How can you get around the system? The only way surely that they will receive the dole is if they're not officially working? And if they're not officially working, how do you prove otherwise and take them off it?

How much have they put Petrol up by this time?

How can you get around the system? The only way surely that they will receive the dole is if they're not officially working? And if they're not officially working, how do you prove otherwise and take them off it?

 

Lets say I get paid £4 an hour and work 5 hours a day, 5 days a week. I bring home £100 a week but I don't earn enough to pay tax. My rent (£200/month) is being paid by parents because they're generous and want to look after me. I can then go into the Dole office and apply for Job Seekers Allowance. They scan the system to see if I'm currently employed, but find nothing because I don't pay stamps or tax. I tell them I'm actively seeking a job and have been for three months, but can't find one. I show them the CV I have been "handing out to employers" if they ask for it. I then further receive an extra £50 a week if I have been accepted. I then get £150 a week, a third of which isn't rightfully mine.

 

You could have 35,000 people doing this, each getting £200 a month of tax payers' money. That's £7,000,000 a month going to people who aren't entitled to it.

 

I wouldn't know an effective way of going about taking people off it. It would be a long process if a way was found. But it's happening here too and something needs to be done about it because that's a lot of money going to these people who aren't legally entitled to it.

Edited April 24, 200916 yr by Cal

Lets say I get paid £4 an hour and work 5 hours a day, 5 days a week. I bring home £100 a week but I don't earn enough to pay tax. My rent (£200/month) is being paid by parents because they're generous and want to look after me. I can then go into the Dole office and apply for Job Seekers Allowance. They scan the system to see if I'm currently employed, but find nothing because I don't pay stamps or tax. I tell them I'm actively seeking a job and have been for three months, but can't find one. I show them the CV I have been "handing out to employers" if they ask for it. I then further receive an extra £50 a week if I have been accepted. I then get £150 a week, a third of which isn't rightfully mine.

 

You could have 35,000 people doing this, each getting £200 a month of tax payers' money. That's £7,000,000 a month going to people who aren't entitled to it.

 

I wouldn't know an effective way of going about taking people off it. It would be a long process if a way was found. But it's happening here too and something needs to be done about it because that's a lot of money going to these people who aren't legally entitled to it.

That's a physical impossibility - £4 an hour is less than the minimum wage. In any case, doesn't everyone have to pay tax, even if it involves getting tax credits? I believe if you earn too little to pay tax (i.e. you're a student or earn less than £6,000 p/a) you have to fill out a form...the scenario you mention above may happen in Ireland, but it doesn't in the UK AFAIK ;)

That's a physical impossibility - £4 an hour is less than the minimum wage. In any case, doesn't everyone have to pay tax, even if it involves getting tax credits? I believe if you earn too little to pay tax (i.e. you're a student or earn less than £6,000 p/a) you have to fill out a form...the scenario you mention above may happen in Ireland, but it doesn't in the UK AFAIK ;)

 

But it does happen. You can't possibly think that everybody lives by the rules. :mellow:

 

A clearer example:

 

There's a guy down the road who fixes cars without a business license. He asks me to help out. I get £4 an hour. His business isn't registered. I'm not a registered employee. I don't have any forms to sign to say that I don't earn enough to pay tax. I go to the Dole office. They see I'm not on any system, I'm not in College, I live on my own and I'm "actively seeking employment". As far as the office is concerned, I don't have a job, but am looking for one. Therefore, I get my £50 a week on top of my weekly payment from the guy.

 

Or you can reverse it:

 

I'm on the Dole and actively seeking employment. I then help out with the guy down the road. He's not a registered employer. I'm not a registered employee. BINGO. Nobody but the guy and myself know about this. No forms, nothing. I get £80 pounds a week on top of the £50 dole. I stay on the dole because I can. As far as the office is concerned, I'm still actively seeking employment.

 

I get my x-amount of months on the dole even when I'm unofficially working. It's still an income, legit or not.

But it does happen. You can't possibly think that everybody lives by the rules. :mellow:

 

A clearer example:

 

There's a guy down the road who fixes cars without a business license. He asks me to help out. I get £4 an hour. His business isn't registered. I'm not a registered employee. I don't have any forms to sign to say that I don't earn enough to pay tax. I go to the Dole office. They see I'm not on any system, I'm not in College, I live on my own and I'm "actively seeking employment". As far as the office is concerned, I don't have a job, but am looking for one. Therefore, I get my £50 a week on top of my weekly payment from the guy.

 

Or you can reverse it:

 

I'm on the Dole and actively seeking employment. I then help out with the guy down the road. He's not a registered employer. I'm not a registered employee. BINGO. Nobody but the guy and myself know about this. No forms, nothing. I get £80 pounds a week on top of the £50 dole. I stay on the dole because I can. As far as the office is concerned, I'm still actively seeking employment.

 

I get my x-amount of months on the dole even when I'm unofficially working. It's still an income, legit or not.

 

My aunt spent over 2 years as a New Deal training instructor and the amount of people on her courses who were claiming benefits and doing cash in hand jobs on the side was around 1 in 3 of her "students", as she was independent of the job centre she never grassed anyone up as they used to tell her in confidence as as they were on New Deal they couildnt do their jobs on the side but if 2 years worth of New Deal people and the rate of 1 in 3 if that is transferred nationally thats around 600,000 people claiming the dole and working cash in hand on the side

 

Add to that the number of people on sickness benefits who are probably working on the side it is probably not far off 1-2m people working cash in hand while claiming benefits

 

I think that unemployed people should be doing community work until they find a job, this would both help them in the sense they are getting off their arses and doing something productive as opposed to watching Jeremy Kyle and Trisha but also it helps reduce fraud as they will not be working cash in hand on the side

 

 

I think that unemployed people should be doing community work until they find a job

 

Now THIS I can agree with.

 

If the government is going to be paying them, they could at least give something back. In a sense, they'd be employed by the government, but there wouldn't be anymore money spent than is currently. It's a win-win surely?

 

It would also help make these people more employable, giving them experience, as opposed to them falling behind the active workforce even further with massive gaps on their CVs.