I still would like to see an explanation as to how she regenerated into Missy from John Simm's exit in End Of Time.

Christ's sake, do Doctor Who fans really need to be spoon-fed absolutely everything? I think it's explanation enough that the Mistress regenerated from the John Simm incarnation to the Michelle Gomez incarnation... end.

Christ's sake, do Doctor Who fans really need to be spoon-fed absolutely everything? I think it's explanation enough that the Mistress regenerated from the John Simm incarnation to the Michelle Gomez incarnation... end.

 

Given that the Doctor and the Master weren't enemies last time they parted, I'd like to know what's changed. It's not spoon feeding, it's providing background. If anything, Moffatt doesn't explain enough. Everyone knows the Master regenerated, but I'd like to know why she wanted to do what she did this series. The explanations were weak and we could have has just a tad more dialogue on the matter instead of faux-emotional silence as Clara and CyberDanny look at each other.

Given that the Doctor and the Master weren't enemies last time they parted, I'd like to know what's changed. It's not spoon feeding, it's providing background. If anything, Moffatt doesn't explain enough. Everyone knows the Master regenerated, but I'd like to know why she wanted to do what she did this series. The explanations were weak and we could have has just a tad more dialogue on the matter instead of faux-emotional silence as Clara and CyberDanny look at each other.

She wanted to do what she did this series because she had been watching over the Doctor and Clara (as we saw, so don't say Moffat didn't show us that either), and wanted to prove that the Doctor was far from different to her. Just because they parted on good terms in 'The End of Time', that doesn't mean they'll be friends for life after that point. They both did good for one another, but at the end of the day the Mistress is a more twisted, insane version of the Doctor, so it's only natural the spark of hatred would come back out to play?

 

Not being able to work something out that is sitting right in front of you waiting to click, or not being able to take what you know about characters (i.e. background) and applying it to their nature in a recent episode and then calling the writer up on it IS wanting to be spoon-fed, whether you want to call it that or not.

She wanted to do what she did this series because she had been watching over the Doctor and Clara (as we saw, so don't say Moffat didn't show us that either), and wanted to prove that the Doctor was far from different to her. Just because they parted on good terms in 'The End of Time', that doesn't mean they'll be friends for life after that point. They both did good for one another, but at the end of the day the Mistress is a more twisted, insane version of the Doctor, so it's only natural the spark of hatred would come back out to play?

 

Not being able to work something out that is sitting right in front of you waiting to click, or not being able to take what you know about characters (i.e. background) and applying it to their nature in a recent episode and then calling the writer up on it IS wanting to be spoon-fed, whether you want to call it that or not.

 

My goodness, do you need to be so incredibly rude to anyone who isn't hanging out of Moffatt's arse?

 

I'm not sure whether you're saying the reason some of us are unsatisfied is because we're just too thick or not?

 

Missy being the Master becomes a ratings grabbing name drop purely on the basis that the previous events were barely mentioned in the episode. It came off awfully like 'oh btw lol I want to show you you're like me k' with barely any motive behind it. A line or two more could have made it more convincing.

 

I find it difficult to take anything you post seriously because you appear awfully biased and tear down anyone who disagrees with you. I have both praised and criticised this series. It has had some excellent points but I feel a little bit more explanation could have helped this finale episodes and, you know, it would have been nice for those of us who enjoyed the previous episodes by letting the events get a bit of a mention. It doesn't mean we're not intelligent enough to follow and need everything spoon fed but you'll probably turn this around on me whilst proclaiming Clara the greatest Who character of all time or something.

My goodness, do you need to be so incredibly rude to anyone who isn't hanging out of Moffatt's arse?

 

I'm not sure whether you're saying the reason some of us are unsatisfied is because we're just too thick or not?

 

Missy being the Master becomes a ratings grabbing name drop purely on the basis that the previous events were barely mentioned in the episode. It came off awfully like 'oh btw lol I want to show you you're like me k' with barely any motive behind it. A line or two more could have made it more convincing.

 

I find it difficult to take anything you post seriously because you appear awfully biased and tear down anyone who disagrees with you. I have both praised and criticised this series. It has had some excellent points but I feel a little bit more explanation could have helped this finale episodes and, you know, it would have been nice for those of us who enjoyed the previous episodes by letting the events get a bit of a mention. It doesn't mean we're not intelligent enough to follow and need everything spoon fed

I'm not implying anybody's thick at all - but when you have two completely different storytellers in the form of RTD and Moffat, there's obviously going to be those who relate to the former's work more because they were dependent on having everything spelled out to them in the end (who was there, why they were there, what they had for breakfast, what they're going to be wearing tomorrow, etc.), then you have Moffat who tends to let the viewer's imagination run wild among a book of endless possibilities. I just feel that people who feel like there should be a concrete conclusion to one line of events (aka. the RTD era) could probably be a bit more accepting of the polar opposite. It's not lazy writing in any sense, it's just allowing some freedom.

 

I don't really understand what needs convincing though in regards to Missy being the Master? It's not as if Moffat waited until 'In the Forest of the Night' had aired to say that they were going to re-write and re-film the ending of 'Dark Water' to suddenly have Missy become who she is? And it all goes back to giving the viewers freedom to believe what they wish in relation to what happened following the events of 'The End of Time'. We don't have an answer now, but do we really need one? Simple explanation for those who desperately need one: The Master is sent back to Gallifrey with the Time Lords, the Master regenerates, the Master watches over the Doctor and Clara, then unveils her master plan when she finally meets the Doctor, the events of 'Dark Water' and 'Death in Heaven' unfold. Would it really have made the episode ten times better for you had there been a line in the episode telling you what you can already assume?

 

but you'll probably turn this around on me whilst proclaiming Clara the greatest Who character of all time or something.

 

And honestly, what relevance does this have at all to the debate in hand? We're talking about lines of events and whether they need explaining or not, not who's favourite character is who. Get a grip.

Am I alone in wondering whether Missy disappeared into one of the gravestones, i.e. her Tardis?

I'm not implying anybody's thick at all - but when you have two completely different storytellers in the form of RTD and Moffat, there's obviously going to be those who relate to the former's work more because they were dependent on having everything spelled out to them in the end (who was there, why they were there, what they had for breakfast, what they're going to be wearing tomorrow, etc.), then you have Moffat who tends to let the viewer's imagination run wild among a book of endless possibilities. I just feel that people who feel like there should be a concrete conclusion to one line of events (aka. the RTD era) could probably be a bit more accepting of the polar opposite. It's not lazy writing in any sense, it's just allowing some freedom.

 

I don't really understand what needs convincing though in regards to Missy being the Master? It's not as if Moffat waited until 'In the Forest of the Night' had aired to say that they were going to re-write and re-film the ending of 'Dark Water' to suddenly have Missy become who she is? And it all goes back to giving the viewers freedom to believe what they wish in relation to what happened following the events of 'The End of Time'. We don't have an answer now, but do we really need one? Simple explanation for those who desperately need one: The Master is sent back to Gallifrey with the Time Lords, the Master regenerates, the Master watches over the Doctor and Clara, then unveils her master plan when she finally meets the Doctor, the events of 'Dark Water' and 'Death in Heaven' unfold. Would it really have made the episode ten times better for you had there been a line in the episode telling you what you can already assume?

And honestly, what relevance does this have at all to the debate in hand? We're talking about lines of events and whether they need explaining or not, not who's favourite character is who. Get a grip.

 

This is where you appear to imply that those wanting a little bit more explanation are somehow inferior. That those people lack imagination in some way. This is condescending no matter how you dress it up.

 

No one NEEDS more explanation. We all know what is happening in the story and we can all figure out the background for ourselves. We WANT more explanation on screen because we want things to flow better and for what is explained not to feel rushed. No, it wouldn't have made the episode ten times better. But it would have made it better.

 

If I need to imagine everything then there may as well be no series and I should just write loads of fan fiction.

 

And you're no one to plea for people to be a bit more accepting. Any negative comment on the series made by any poster in this thread has been challenged by you, not accepted as their opinion. Someone posts once about wishing to know what happened after The End Of Time and you bark at them and imply they're moronic and need spoon feeding. Just because the opinion differs to yours. So perhaps you're the one who should get a grip.

 

This is where you appear to imply that those wanting a little bit more explanation are somehow inferior. That those people lack imagination in some way. This is condescending no matter how you dress it up.

 

No one NEEDS more explanation. We all know what is happening in the story and we can all figure out the background for ourselves. We WANT more explanation on screen because we want things to flow better and for what is explained not to feel rushed. No, it wouldn't have made the episode ten times better. But it would have made it better.

 

If I need to imagine everything then there may as well be no series and I should just write loads of fan fiction.

 

And you're no one to plea for people to be a bit more accepting. Any negative comment on the series made by any poster in this thread has been challenged by you, not accepted as their opinion. Someone posts once about wishing to know what happened after The End Of Time and you bark at them and imply they're moronic and need spoon feeding. Just because the opinion differs to yours. So perhaps you're the one who should get a grip.

So would you rather I made my point by just skimming around the edges in fear of offending anybody? The whole problem is RTD never received any complaints because he spelled absolutely every single detail out. Moffat on the other hand doesn't and suddenly he's public enemy #1? Maybe if he spent half the episode explaining how the Master was able to return and how she did this, and how she did that it would literally detract a lot from what was actually happening in the episode. The plot was progressing at a steady pace, and there really is no need to slow it down by stopping to explain this small detail and that small detail. People seem to care so much for the casual viewer also, so would you really want them racking their brains over all of the jargon that only fans will understand?

 

You said there was no reference at all to past events, so how can you now turn around and say that you wanted more explanation because it would not have felt rushed? If there is no explanation there, there is nothing to rush.

 

And now you're turning around and saying that opinions cannot be challenged? Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but that by no means stops people from questioning them or challenging them. I wouldn't exactly say "I want to know what happened after 'The End of Time'" is an opinion either, more a wish. And challenging that doesn't appear to be breaking any rules or laws either. But yes, you're completely right, I should get a grip for actually generating discussion and challenging "opinions" x

a mixed finale. I still have misgivings about the whole "dead people" aspect being cybermen and all and the way that was resolved (err everyone dies and becomes a cyberman thanks to a nutjob jealous Master?Missy). That said, I seriously want Michelle Gomez to comeback, great performance and character. The Brigadier cameo (sort of) hmm again I'm left a bit ewww about it especially since there is no logic to it (if one cyberman isn't a total cyberman, why can't others also not be).

 

Overall, there have been greater series finales than this one, but it was OK.

 

Yay for Santa!

I'm more displeased with the way you talk to people rather than the fact you challenge their opinions. The implication that because they wanted something different out of the show than you did they lacked imagination and needed spoon feeding.

 

The series, although it has been good on the whole, still had issues and for me those were mostly in the finale. I understood everything that happened but it was mostly weak. The Master's plan was incredibly weak (not to mention this theme was done, but better, by Davros in Series 4). The explanation of her actions was rushed. Providing some background on what had happened may actually have made her motives seem much stronger.

 

The reason explanations haven't happened is because Moffatt hasn't thought them up yet. We saw it with Matt Smith's era. Questions were left hanging in the air for years with promise they'd be answered and then they all got wrapped up within a minute LNG conversation in the last episode as if Moffatt went 'oh shit better answer these things before Matt leaves'. It's quite sloppy and you're fine to disagree, but don't you dare tell me that the reason I feel this way is because I'm lacking imagination or intelligence.

I'm more displeased with the way you talk to people rather than the fact you challenge their opinions. The implication that because they wanted something different out of the show than you did they lacked imagination and needed spoon feeding.

 

The series, although it has been good on the whole, still had issues and for me those were mostly in the finale. I understood everything that happened but it was mostly weak. The Master's plan was incredibly weak (not to mention this theme was done, but better, by Davros in Series 4). The explanation of her actions was rushed. Providing some background on what had happened may actually have made her motives seem much stronger.

 

The reason explanations haven't happened is because Moffatt hasn't thought them up yet. We saw it with Matt Smith's era. Questions were left hanging in the air for years with promise they'd be answered and then they all got wrapped up within a minute LNG conversation in the last episode as if Moffatt went 'oh shit better answer these things before Matt leaves'. It's quite sloppy and you're fine to disagree, but don't you dare tell me that the reason I feel this way is because I'm lacking imagination or intelligence.

When are you not displeased though? You're seriously blurring the lines here between comments about the writers allowing people to use their imagination and your views on something completely unrelated.

 

And may as well say while we're at it... Moffat obviously has "thought them up". There were only a couple of major questions that were left until the very end, and you can tell why. The Papal Mainframe made an appearance in 'The Time of the Doctor' because she was there during the Trenzalore battle, so it made sense for her to reference the Kovarian chapter of the Silence, and given the Silence were a main presence throughout the whole episode (and it was the last time they would appear), the questions we were still asking regarding them were also answered. The questions were left hanging for years because evidently they were not ready for answering yet? The story had not reached fruition, and do you really think it would have made sense to get all of the answers we needed re. the Silence in, say, 'Day of the Moon'? No.

 

I just find it really funny that you say Moffat's writing is "sloppy" when he's had several arcs planned and executed over the course of six years. He planted the River seed in 2008, and it carried on until 2011 with a successful pay-off (probably better say that's in my opinion for the sake of clarity), and we've had the Silence arc from 2010 to 2013. You don't simply start a four year long story arc and give all the answers half of the way through and leave nothing for your grand conclusion when the whole era that's been building up and building up to the very end (see 'The Time of the Doctor'), otherwise what would be the point in the latter episodes?

Anyway...

 

'Dark Water' AI & finals, and 'Death in Heaven' overnights added:

 

Deep Breath · Overnight: 6.8m, Final: 9.17m, L+7: 10.76m, AI: 82

Into the Dalek · Overnight: 5.2m, Final: 7.29m, L+7: 8.26m, AI: 84

Robot of Sherwood · Overnight: 5.2m, Final: 7.28m, L+7: 8.25m, AI: 82

Listen · Overnight: 4.8m, Final: 7.01m, L+7: 7.80m, AI: 82

Time Heist · Overnight: 4.93m, Final: 6.99m, AI: 84

The Caretaker · Overnight: 4.89m, Final: 6.82m, AI: 83

Kill the Moon · Overnight: 4.81m, Final: 6.91m, AI: 82

Mummy on the Orient Express · Overnight: 5.08m, Final: 7.11m, AI: 85

Flatline · Overnight: 4.6m, Final: 6.71m, AI: 85

In the Forest of the Night · Overnight: 5.03m, Final: 6.92m, AI: 83

Dark Water · Overnight: 5.27m, Final: 7.34m, AI: 85

Death in Heaven · Overnight: 5.45m, Final: TBA, AI: TBA

 

'Dark Water' getting the highest final viewing figures since 'Deep Breath' :o

Only stated how I've been pleased with episodes several times throughout the thread? Seriously, don't attack me unless you've actually read my posts. Certainly don't accuse me of bias in any way particularly since you are the one who fails to criticise anything. I feel the show has been in a better state and I will say so. Don't try and come up with reasons I think this way as if I have some disability when watching the show and can't see the obvious amazingness you can.

It seems like you're caught up in your own little fantasy world T Boy, so I'll just let you stay there.

 

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ghf.gif

 

-x-

 

New DWM cover:

 

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/dwm-480.jpg

 

Interested to hear how the whole idea came about *.*

Edited November 10, 201410 yr by Calum Hood

Do you know what? I won't even bother. Why should I try having intelligent discussion with someone who counters good arguments with accusing the other party of being delusional. I get why you get so much hate in the reality forum now because you simply have no objectivity on anything you like. I'll take my Who discussion elsewhere for people who actually enjoy debate and not trying to run a thread like a tyrant who can't counter difference of opinion without turning to insults.

Do you know what? I won't even bother. Why should I try having intelligent discussion with someone who counters good arguments with accusing the other party of being delusional. I get why you get so much hate in the reality forum now because you simply have no objectivity on anything you like. I'll take my Who discussion elsewhere for people who actually enjoy debate and not trying to run a thread like a tyrant who can't counter difference of opinion without turning to insults.

Are you fucking kidding me?! You talking about trying to have an intelligent discussion when all you've done is sit and make petty remarks and your best attempt at insults the whole time I've actually been trying to have... an intelligent discussion with you? Honestly. :drama:

I've voiced my opinions on the show. You've then explained that I'm either delusional or lacking in imagination and that's why I don't love it like you do. That is so insulting and that you can't see it makes me worry for you.

Am I alone in wondering whether Missy disappeared into one of the gravestones, i.e. her Tardis?

No. I thought that immediately the first time I watched it. The dissolve looks exactly like the same teleportation she did several times previously. On second viewing a blue beam of light much like a Cyberman's weapon appears to strike her. That doesn't mean it actually hit her and maybe it was 'sending her away'. We can't be certain she's dead and I really hope not. To rob us of the best incarnation of The Master since Roger Delgado after only one story would be borderline criminal.

Am I the only one outraged at Osgood's irrelevant death scene?!

Am I the only one outraged at Osgood's irrelevant death scene?!

No.

 

It was a very good scene, I loved the counting down aspect and it was really the only scene where we saw the true heartlessness of the Master butttt, it shouldn't have happened to someone like Osgood, she could have become a really good UNIT character.

 

I was more upset over he death than Dannys :lol: