The CBI going pro-union has not helped matters. It's just more London based institutions forcing themselves upon Scotland. I've said for years that I wouldn't bet against Salmond and this is why. When everyone thinks they are just denting his credibility and plans they actually lay the foundation stone for them instead. If Standard Life were actually going to move they'd have done it already. Everyone knows that's just a bluffing tactic to make things to their way. (The cost of doing such a thing would be enormous thus making it statistically unlikely)

 

The lectures given by Westminster up here are exactly that. Lectures. You can't lecture an electorate, not when your opposition actually has an open discussion with the electorate. The turning point of our last election was when the Labour leader hid in a shop instead of deal with people demanding to know his policies and why they should vote for him. When the same happened to Salmond he didn't run, he stayed and spoke to them. I hate him but my god he knows how to get an electorate eating out of his hands and better together are just making it so much easier

The CBI going pro-union has not helped matters. It's just more London based institutions forcing themselves upon Scotland. I've said for years that I wouldn't bet against Salmond and this is why. When everyone thinks they are just denting his credibility and plans they actually lay the foundation stone for them instead. If Standard Life were actually going to move they'd have done it already. Everyone knows that's just a bluffing tactic to make things to their way. (The cost of doing such a thing would be enormous thus making it statistically unlikely)

 

The lectures given by Westminster up here are exactly that. Lectures. You can't lecture an electorate, not when your opposition actually has an open discussion with the electorate. The turning point of our last election was when the Labour leader hid in a shop instead of deal with people demanding to know his policies and why they should vote for him. When the same happened to Salmond he didn't run, he stayed and spoke to them. I hate him but my god he knows how to get an electorate eating out of his hands and better together are just making it so much easier

If major firms like Standard Life stay in Scotland then the administration will be able to afford to cut corporation tax below the UK level thereby making it more attractive for them to stay.

Darling is an unattractive personality? That's news to, well, everyone.

 

Darling in practice doesn't even seem to be playing a big part in it (despite being the official head of the campaign). It seems to me that in practice the people pulling the strings are the Scottish Labour leadership, who are managing to achieve the impossible feat of making their Westminster counterparts look like talented politicians. All they seem to do is screech hysterically about Alex Salmond and nitpick at his plans, rather than setting out any positive reasons of their own about why they should stay in the UK.

 

Not to mention two of the other people apparently playing a big part in the campaign are Progressbots-in-chief Jim Murphy and Douglas Alexander, who take a large part of the responsibility for driving the national Labour Party so far to the right and thus making Scottish people feel it's impossible they'll ever get a government they'll be happy with so they may as well go independent, and giving the SNP what is becoming their most potent tagline of "independence will mean you'll get a real Labour Party back". In fact, according to this writer, nevermind Labour voters, there's even a lot of Labour activists in Scotland who secretly want independence because they're so disgusted with the party in its present form.

Edited April 20, 201411 yr by Danny

If major firms like Standard Life stay in Scotland then the administration will be able to afford to cut corporation tax below the UK level thereby making it more attractive for them to stay.

That's actually in the White Paper iirc!

Darling in practice doesn't even seem to be playing a big part in it (despite being the official head of the campaign). It seems to me that in practice the people pulling the strings are the Scottish Labour leadership, who are managing to achieve the impossible feat of making their Westminster counterparts look like talented politicians. All they seem to do is screech hysterically about Alex Salmond and nitpick at his plans, rather than setting out any positive reasons of their own about why they should stay in the UK.

 

Not to mention two of the other people apparently playing a big part in the campaign are Progressbots-in-chief Jim Murphy and Douglas Alexander, who take a large part of the responsibility for driving the national Labour Party so far to the right and thus making Scottish people feel it's impossible they'll ever get a government they'll be happy with so they may as well go independent, and giving the SNP what is becoming their most potent tagline of "independence will mean you'll get a real Labour Party back". In fact, according to this writer, nevermind Labour voters, there's even a lot of Labour activists in Scotland who secretly want independence because they're so disgusted with the party in its present form.

I don't actually think that Better Together are doing enough to set the agenda but frankly it shouldn't be down to them.

Let's have a look at that INDEPENDENCE SURGE (graph includes this month despite axis appearances)

 

http://i60.tinypic.com/j5b61s.jpg

 

oh

Darling in practice doesn't even seem to be playing a big part in it (despite being the official head of the campaign). It seems to me that in practice the people pulling the strings are the Scottish Labour leadership, who are managing to achieve the impossible feat of making their Westminster counterparts look like talented politicians. All they seem to do is screech hysterically about Alex Salmond and nitpick at his plans, rather than setting out any positive reasons of their own about why they should stay in the UK.

There isn't exactly much leeway for that when Salmond's proposal for independence includes most of the good things about being in the UK. At that point, of course most of the campaign will be on why Salmond's proposals outside of that are bad?

Let's have a look at that INDEPENDENCE SURGE (graph includes this month despite axis appearances)

 

http://i60.tinypic.com/j5b61s.jpg

 

oh

 

Oh come on, you can't seriously still be denying there's a clear trend at this point? :lol: Even the smug Westminster media have changed the habit of a lifetime by admitting they were wrong and that independence is now a very real prospect

 

 

There isn't exactly much leeway for that when Salmond's proposal for independence includes most of the good things about being in the UK. At that point, of course most of the campaign will be on why Salmond's proposals outside of that are bad?

 

If the "Better Together" campaign can't think of any good reasons for staying in the UK, isn't that a sign that.....there isn't a good reason for staying in the UK?

 

I think that's usually what people are getting at when they complain about the "Better Together" campaign. I personally don't think it's a case of people saying "they're such rubbish campaigners so I'm going to vote 'Yes' just to spite them". It's more that their rubbish campaign and their lack of an argument is pulling the wool from people's eyes. A few months ago, I was unthinkingly assuming it would be a disaster for Scotland to leave, but the lack of any "Better Together" argument made me think more deeply and I realised I couldn't think of a single advantage of them staying in the UK, either for Scotland or the rest of the UK.

There has been a mildly positive trend for Yes, but it's hardly the surge the media is making out. It's also one which has yet to see independence consistently get over 40% of the vote. Spin the split all you like, but I can't think of a single campaign where don't knows overwhelmingly plumped against the status quo when it came to voting time. I also don't take much stock of a media which adores reporting any election it can as a horse race. I made the point some time ago that they'd start reporting it as a close thing because that's what sells papers and gets interest (just look at the 2012 US election for the worst case of that recently). We're looking at a case which has never once had the lead in forty years, never once had a majority in favour, and all of a sudden we're to expect that to change just because one or two polls are showing a five/six point gap? (And it's always the closest ones that get dwelled, ignoring the iron rule of polling that if the result looks notable compared to all the other polls, chances are it isn't.)

 

There ARE good reasons for staying in the UK - ultimately, I don't look at my Scottish relatives and see foreigners. But if we're going for cold hard transactional reasons, Scotland does very well out of the Barnett formula, and in order to keep the comparatively generous public provision after independence that Scotland have now, taxes would have to go up just to maintain that - and that's before we've gotten started on the socialist utopia Salmond pretends he'll be introducing. Oh, what's that? We're being negative by actually introducing facts on the difference independence will bring? Well, I guess that makes my argument redundant then. Let's vote for independence because that chippy man with the jowls says we're being bullied because he can't have his cake and eat it five times over.

ultimately, I don't look at my Scottish relatives and see foreigners.

 

I actually do tbh. I mean, obviously I don't put Scotland in the North Korea bracket of a country/culture which is completely alien to me, but honestly I do think of myself as having about as much in common with Scotland as I do with France. I've certainly spent a lot more time in France than I ever have in Scotland (I would personally guess that would be true for most English people, but I might be completely wrong).

 

The "United Kingdom" or "Britishness" honestly doesn't mean anything to me emotionally.

Edited April 21, 201411 yr by Danny

The "United Kingdom" or "Britishness" honestly doesn't mean anything to me emotionally.

Does "English" though, outside of sport?

Salmond is suggesting that an independent Scotland would help to rebalance power towards the North of England.

 

Somehow.

all the scottish people I know, by virtue of them not being in Scotland, and there are a sizeable number of them, are obviously in favour of the UK, not independent Scotland. As they've effectively been disenfranchised though, taking advantage of the freedom to move anywhere within the UK has already disproportionately affected the result before it's even begun. I DO think of Scottish people as British just as much as I do the Welsh, Scousers, Geordies and everyone else that isn't living in London and the South. Ironically, London is the least "British" place in the UK, in the sense that the proportion of non-British-passport-holders and non-British-property-owners is so high compared the rest of the UK....

Salmond is suggesting that an independent Scotland would help to rebalance power towards the North of England.

 

Somehow.

The North should just come with us!

 

I think the implication is that the Scottish Government would work with the local authorities at the border to ensure the status quo and foster cooperation on schemes that'd improve the lives of everyone in the parts of England Thatcher tried to destroy as an extension of her evil pilot programme in Scotland.

The North should just come with us!

 

I think the implication is that the Scottish Government would work with the local authorities at the border to ensure the status quo and foster cooperation on schemes that'd improve the lives of everyone in the parts of England Thatcher tried to destroy as an extension of her evil pilot programme in Scotland.

The local authorities that have a border aren't particularly deprived compared to a lot of the North, so it's a little misguided. Independence just reduces the lobbying power of the rest of the country outside the South East. Northern cities need devolution of funding to improve lives, which ultimately can only really come from Westminster (although the EU has done its bit).

I havent really been following this debate and everything fully but here is my two sense:

 

I dont mind if they leave england, because it is then their problem to deal with the transition of being out of europe and having to re-apply if they want to come back into the EU etc.

 

But to me this is like a very bitter marriage divorce! It is like we are leaving you but we still want to have you're good stuff (currency etc), and i'm just thinking No, you wanted out of here so get/sort everything out on you're damn selves!

 

That being said I hope they dont leave us! But I wouldn't have a problem if they did!

 

This is an interesting read: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2...nion-polls-show

Edited April 23, 201411 yr by #WilSon

But to me this is like a very bitter marriage divorce! It is like we are leaving you but we still want to have you're good stuff (currency etc), and i'm just thinking No, you wanted out of here so get/sort everything out on you're damn selves!

SAY!

 

(totally have a problem if they do leave though. thank the blesséd darl it ain't)

Scotland would not leave England, it would leave the UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND. Come on! If you can't even get the name of this country right why the hell should we be held back by you lot?

 

Not that the opinion of rUK actually matters this side of a vote. It's up to Scotland to decide it's constitutional future regardless of the overbearing opinions of anyone else. Camoron, Osbourne, random MP/former MP or whoever it is wading into a debate where they don't belong.

 

Latest people to step in it and make life that little bit more difficult for Better Together are the CBI. Since the announcement I referred to at the top of the page, the following people have quit the CBI:

 

Heriot-Watt University

Highlands and Islands University

Dundee University

The Law Society

Skills Development Scotland

The Scottish Qualifications Authority

Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Strathclyde University

Glasgow Caledonian University

Glasgow University

Edinburgh University

STV

Scottish Enterprise

Visit Scotland

Aquamarine Power

Balhousie Care Group

 

Rather embarrassingly the head of CBI Scotland sits on the board of Strathclyde University...

 

Spinless bast*rds at Robert Gordon expressed 'disapproval' but have remained members. Rather happily my alma mater Dundee joined that list very recently ^_^

To be fair it's a bit déclassé for an organisation like the CBI to come out and take a position like that when it has so many affiliates that presumably have to be apolitical on this sort of thing.

Not that the opinion of rUK actually matters this side of a vote. It's up to Scotland to decide it's constitutional future regardless of the overbearing opinions of anyone else. Camoron, Osbourne, random MP/former MP or whoever it is wading into a debate where they don't belong.

Why don't we belong in the debate? It affects us too. And most of us would rather our relatives didn't become foreigners (obv in a globalised world it doesn't mean what it used to, but it still sets a divide there). Yeah, self-determination means it's totally fair enough that only you have the vote but that doesn't mean we don't have a place in the debate.