To be perfectly honest, I don't think it makes much difference one way or the other if we're in the EU.

Do you know what the Social Chapter does?

 

Even that (and the various arguments for free trade/diplomatic strength in the EU) aside, this is basically equivalent to arguing that immigration doesn't make any difference to the UK's economy. Public spending isn't the be all and end all of what politics can do.

Althoigh I and almost everyone I know will vote to leave I still expect the vote to be a majority for us to stay in.

Althoigh I and almost everyone I know will vote to leave I still expect the vote to be a majority for us to stay in.

Why would you vote to leave?

Near as I can make out, the main arguments people quote for leaving the EU:

 

fed up with foreigners coming over here and taking the jobs and living off benefits (ignoring that the EU accounts for only half of the jobs taken by foreigners, the rest of the world the other half and the ones doing the employing are British business owners - they are the ones choosing to employ "foreigners" because they are better educated and more reliable or so they perceive, or else because foreign companies win a bid for a contract. You will note that doesn't stop British businesses, for example, hiring IT staff who live and work in Asia, who are paid less because they are fed up with presumably "extortionately high" wages of the UK). I bet EU whingers try and blame that on the EU too.

 

fed up with Brussels telling us how to live our life (ignoring that most people in the UK don't necessarily disagree with decisions taken for Europe as a whole just because they have some whinges about some trivial ruling or other)

 

Most of the key things that affect life in the UK are still (and always will) be governed by the elected MP's of the country: tax, education, defence, benefits, health, infrastructure, none of these would be affected by leaving the EU, but buying and selling goods and services would be (for the worse - nothing stops us importing or selling to the rest of the world, so any argument trotted out along those lines is plain silly, we already do that, we only stand to lose customers not gain). In other words, as a nation, leaving would risk hitting our wages badly.

I hope we stay in or I and thousands of others will be out of a job.

 

I'd rather be part of Europe than sucking up to bloody America.

Near as I can make out, the main arguments people quote for leaving the EU:

 

fed up with foreigners coming over here and taking the jobs and living off benefits (ignoring that the EU accounts for only half of the jobs taken by foreigners, the rest of the world the other half and the ones doing the employing are British business owners - they are the ones choosing to employ "foreigners" because they are better educated and more reliable or so they perceive, or else because foreign companies win a bid for a contract. You will note that doesn't stop British businesses, for example, hiring IT staff who live and work in Asia, who are paid less because they are fed up with presumably "extortionately high" wages of the UK). I bet EU whingers try and blame that on the EU too.

And what about all the immigrants that have been coming over here from the Southern Asia for the last 20 years doing the same thing.

At least the Eastern Europeans are of similar culture to us and we can easily mix. Also we can go & live & work there.

 

This was GREAT Britain but now it is just Britain or Little Pakistan, or Little Bangladesh.

 

There are West Indians, Filipinos and Chinese here but they have not tried taking over like those from Southern Asia.

Edited June 23, 201510 yr by poppet15

Deary me. I don't think immigrants from the Subcontinent have really tried 'taking over'. Not least as most of them have been here for a good two, three generations now. And culturally we don't really have a great deal more in common with Eastern Europeans other than, uh, skin colour.

Can we please not turn this into a debate of "which immigrants are the worst?". "At least they're not Asian" is the least valid defense of EU-enabled immigration I've ever seen.

Can we please not turn this into a debate of "which immigrants are the worst?". "At least they're not Asian" is the least valid defense of EU-enabled immigration I've ever seen.

SING IT

Quite. I'm all for multiculturalism, there isn't a single person born in the UK who can claim to not have immigrant heritage, it's only a question of how far back in time you go to find them (answer: it won't be that far back in time).

 

As for the poll: considering our historical ties with Poland (we DID go to war in a pact), for example, and having grown up with Polish refugee family friends, it's not that suprising that many in Europe have a favourable view of the UK. Given the way the UK walked over half the bloody world and got rich on their resources the least it can do is accept a few piddling people who want to live here to improve their lot. I note the forthcoming Tory "6 years and you're out mate" legislation on foreign workers earning under 36k. That's way more than I earn, so it's basically a case of looking after the well-paid as if they contribute more to society than the low-paid. Bollocks. This is going to seriously back-fire.

We actually have a huge amount in common with those from SE Asia from centuries of trade links and because EMPIRE!.

 

Immigration is hugely beneficial for our economy. It really doesn't matter where people come from, they bring their talents to this country and they strive to make a better life for themselves. It also makes the UK a more diverse and interesting place. Plus over time as these cultures become ingrained in ours you see what it means to be British adapting and developing continuously making us richer both culturally and financially. The Indian dish 'Chicken Tikka Masala' is widely claimed to have been invented in Glasgow and is the best example of this.

 

 

 

The EU isn't perfect, but it can be reformed. In times of increasing globalisation we need to be increasing our presence in supra-national organisations, not withdrawing from them. The EU is the worlds largest economy. Why on earth would you want to isolate yourself from that market and the decisions that control it? Look at Norway, they have to implement many EU rules without getting a say on how they are created.That's what we'd be subjected to. That's losing more power to Brussels, not reclaiming it. Quite frankly, UKIP live in a fantasy world completely cut off from reality. If we vote to leave the EU I'm packing my bags and am driving like hell to the Channel Tunnel to get across before I lose my right to live in the EU. When I get to Germany or Scandinavia i'm rescinding my UK nationality and claiming asylum from the right wing and the utter stupidity and short sightedness of the UK public.

Now that Owen Jones has called for the UK to leave the EU, I'd just like to reiterate my overwhelming support for the EU. Also, if "Lexit" ever enters the popular lexicon, I will burn down the headquarters of the Oxford English Dictionary*.

 

 

 

 

 

*Disclaimer - Brett-Butler will not burn down the Oxford English Dictionary HQ, and does not encourage anyone else to the same. He is using hyperbole to make a point. Arson is very bad. And illegal.

Further evidence that Owen Jones believes his own hype.

I have some sympathies with his line of argument but I'm not here for the left to start tearing themselves apart over Europe, that's the right's job thank you!

I have some sympathies with his line of argument but I'm not here for the left to start tearing themselves apart over Europe, that's the right's job thank you!

 

The left have never needed any help from the right to tear themselves apart. C.f Life of Brian.

O-Jo has a point on this occasion (though "Lexit" is never going to happen).

O-Jo has a point on this occasion (though "Lexit" is never going to happen).

The case is growing and the left are stuck with the issue that some of the best things about the EU (free movement of labour, for one) are those that most people hate. It's therefore a tricky argument to make for staying in at the moment.

History shows when times get hard foreigners tend to get the blame for all troubles and ills. Politicians get a complete Get Out Of Jail Free card using it, when the root cause is usually greed of the rich and stupidity of those in power. It's very rarely (if ever) got anything to do with those cleaning toilets or serving the rich posh drinks pricing themselves and the country into ruin.

 

The Eu and free labour market movement did not cause today's problems. Politicians and greedy f*c*ing w*an*er bank employees caused it and they are all trying to weasel their slimy little ways out of it each day finding other sleight of hand scapegoats to blame.

 

I'll repeat: That's politicians (half of them still in power) and banks (rescued and mostly still in employment). They felt they were Gods of Eternal Prosperity when they were Gods of Blind-Self-Faith. I loathe them for what they've done and everyone should not let them off the hook, or forget or forgive. No matter how much they try to rewrite history.

The case is growing and the left are stuck with the issue that some of the best things about the EU (free movement of labour, for one) are those that most people hate. It's therefore a tricky argument to make for staying in at the moment.

The trouble is, people are all in favour of freedom of movement when it means British people being able to work anywhere in the EU. They are less in favour of the other side of freedom of movement. It is commonly known as rank hypocrisy.

I was speaking to my dad about his opposition to the EU last week and all of his issues were UK problems rather than EU problems, i.e. they could be solved by Westminster if Cameron and is band of arseholes weren't so ideologically driven towards the destruction of our economy, the welfare state and our international isolation.

 

When it comes to benefits, we simply change our rules. To get out you need to either pay in or have been here for x of the last y years or attended x number of years of education here (excluding higher education). Child benefit can only be given to children enrolled in school in the UK or British Overseas Territories or Cyprus/Germany/Anywhere we have military bases (Latter two are only available to those whose children have travelled with their parent to their overseas military posting. Eg. had I been born in the UK and my parents been posted to RAF Brüggen when I was 5 and I attended school in Germany because there wasn't a school on base, then I would be eligible for child benefit)

 

Concern about under cutting of wages because the migrant workers get things like housing etc, often in shitty caravans etc, deducted from their wages, then you make it illegal for people to be paid less than the minimum wage after these deductions if the are required for their job. I.e. close the loophole of these people getting paid less than minimum wage for shady reasons.