Are you serious?! You know the reason the young don't vote is because they don't believe a word the politicians say!!

 

We voted remain because we've grown up in an increasingly globalised world, the first internet generation, and it excites us. We love being able to connect with and communicate and learn with people across Europe. We typically tend to be more inclined to take advantage of free movement to seek exciting opportunities for work and study.

 

Brexiteers being so resolute that we must come out the single market, we must stop the foreigners, we must come out of the customs union is a backlash to an increasingly global world they don't understand and therefore instead of learning and adapting are falling into the path of the far right and blaming immigrants or the EU for all their imagined ills. In reality there's two people to blame. Themselves for failing to adapt and the government for mismanagement of public funds (not reacting to migration patterns or funding education programs to help the boomers cope with technology). It's like the movie and music industry response to the internet and napster. They didn't understand it so they went all far right law & order on it and it just made shit worse.

 

If we don't suffer from a substantial brain drain to the continent, then in a decade or so we will rejoin the EU and will have to pick up the Euro will lose our opt outs for Schengen area (ie control of our border that we already had) and lose our rebate. So our economy will be f***ed and we will end up with a worse deal. All because some far right nutjob was allowed to edit the mail in a system without any effective checks and balances

I haven't see any stats that list over-80's separately - where did that info come from?

 

There was a small decrease in the leave vote in the over 80s I think, but I don't think it was a statistically significant difference.

Are you serious?! You know the reason the young don't vote is because they don't believe a word the politicians say!!

 

But we 'oldies' don't believe them either, yet we vote in far higher proportions...

 

We voted remain because we've grown up in an increasingly globalised world, the first internet generation, and it excites us. We love being able to connect with and communicate and learn with people across Europe. We typically tend to be more inclined to take advantage of free movement to seek exciting opportunities for work and study.

 

Brexiteers being so resolute that we must come out the single market, we must stop the foreigners, we must come out of the customs union is a backlash to an increasingly global world they don't understand and therefore instead of learning and adapting are falling into the path of the far right and blaming immigrants or the EU for all their imagined ills. In reality there's two people to blame. Themselves for failing to adapt and the government for mismanagement of public funds (not reacting to migration patterns or funding education programs to help the boomers cope with technology).

You've explained why you voted to Remain, but a great many Remainers merely *assume* why others voted to Leave - therein lies the problem. Would you give Leavers a fair hearing if you asked them to explain why they voted out, and not reject any explanation that didn't fit your preconceptions?

 

From my pov, it is not the European people I have a problem with, but the *institution* of the EU. I do not trust it, because of its constant seeking to expand its power, with little or no democratic accountability.

 

There was a small decrease in the leave vote in the over 80s I think, but I don't think it was a statistically significant difference.

 

Yes, that was what the previous poster said, but not where that info came from.

 

I googled quite a few sites yesterday trying to find a source for that claim, but I could not find it. I'm not saying it's wrong, only that I cannot confirm it.

Edited September 19, 20177 yr by vidcapper

I feel like Remainers for the most part understand why Leavers voted out and just don't agree with the reasons.

 

It is though unfortunate that in order to do so, Leavers, whether they were themselves or not, stood shoulder to shoulder with racists and xenophobes. For a lot of people, that's just unforgivable because it goes against their absolutely core values.

 

That Leavers were able to do so and not mind sends the suggestion that they do not see racism and xenohpobia as such serious problems or character flaws, whether or not they themselves believe themselves to be racist or xenophobic.

Edited September 19, 20177 yr by StillJupiter

I feel like Remainers for the most part understand why Leavers voted out and just don't agree with the reasons.

 

It is though unfortunate that in order to do so, Leavers, whether they were themselves or not, stood shoulder to shoulder with racists and xenophobes. For a lot of people, that's just unforgivable because it goes against their absolutely core values.

 

That Leavers were able to do so and not mind sends the suggestion that they do not see racism and xenohpobia as such serious problems or character flaws, whether or not they themselves believe themselves to be racist or xenophobic.

 

In the case of the referendum, the core belief for Leavers was that we should get out - should we have abandoned that belief, simply because a tiny proportion of Leave voters were unrepentant racists?

 

It's really very little different from how we vote in general elections - no-one agrees with every policy each party proposes - we simply decide whether what we like outweighs what we don't, and vote on that basis.

 

In the case of the referendum, the core belief for Leavers was that we should get out - should we have abandoned that belief, simply because a tiny proportion of Leave voters were unrepentant racists?

 

It's really very little different from how we vote in general elections - no-one agrees with every policy each party proposes - we simply decide whether what we like outweighs what we don't, and vote on that basis.

Wasnt tiny. Immigration was a huge part of the leave vote. Stop trying to rewrite it into a political movement with no distasteful elements. Xenophobia using patriotism as an excuse to do whatever those rich leavers want to do politically (most of which were not in the referendum) is political reality.

 

The EU is also largely democratic, you just dont agree with decisions made - i assume cos u still havent given any clear examples of laws you dont like.

 

Yet a governing uk party trying to overturn centuries of parliamentary accountability is democratic? The Unelected House Of Scratch My Back and Landed Gentry is democratic? Not in my world it isnt. Thats a power-grabbing Trumpocracy in denial of actual democratic accountability. You are conveniently using an argument for one institution and ignoring it for another because it suits your end purpose, not cos its actually based in reality.

Wasnt tiny. Immigration was a huge part of the leave vote. Stop trying to rewrite it into a political movement with no distasteful elements. Xenophobia using patriotism as an excuse to do whatever those rich leavers want to do politically (most of which were not in the referendum) is political reality.

 

The EU is also largely democratic, you just dont agree with decisions made - i assume cos u still havent given any clear examples of laws you dont like.

 

Yet a governing uk party trying to overturn centuries of parliamentary accountability is democratic? The Unelected House Of Scratch My Back and Landed Gentry is democratic? Not in my world it isnt. Thats a power-grabbing Trumpocracy in denial of actual democratic accountability. You are conveniently using an argument for one institution and ignoring it for another because it suits your end purpose, not cos its actually based in reality.

 

I'm not the one trying to rewrite history. I've never denied that immigration was a factor - I just don't believe it was the *deciding* one for most Leavers. As for why I don't like the EU, it's only a couple of days since I posted a list of (non-immigration-related) reasons why. If you don't agree with them, fine, but please don't dismiss them solely on that basis.

 

As for the House Of Lords, which you seem curiously reticent to name, unlike the EU Parliament they cannot *pass* legislation, only debate proposed laws & suggest amendments, but the HOC is under no obligation to accept such amendments.

 

The EU parliament is fully elected by the citizens of Europe. Not sure what your problem with them is? Is it because everyone gets a say? Because they openly laugh at your hero Farage???

And what do you say about Mad May passing power grab laws AND trying to oveeturn the courts AND having her billionaire press attack dogs call the courts the 'enemy of the people', a phrase right out the Nazi playbook including vs the courts btw? Is this a GREAT SHINING BEACON of denocracy, with the ONLY European parliament where the ruling power has absplute power to pass what they want and with an unelected second housereaffirming centuries of Old Landed Power, like that AWFUL, sneaky Mogg?

The EU parliament is fully elected by the citizens of Europe. Not sure what your problem with them is? Is it because everyone gets a say? Because they openly laugh at your hero Farage???

 

Please STOP making assumptions about me!

 

1. I never said I have a problem with the European Parliament - it is the EU don't like.

 

2. WTF makes you think I consider Farage a hero? :huh: He is just a useful idiot who was able to unite opposition to the EU well enough to win the referendum.

 

 

And what do you say about Mad May passing power grab laws AND trying to oveeturn the courts AND having her billionaire press attack dogs call the courts the 'enemy of the people', a phrase right out the Nazi playbook including vs the courts btw?

 

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law.

 

I suppose you don't have a problem with Gina Miller's own interference in the Brexit process?

 

Is this a GREAT SHINING BEACON of denocracy, with the ONLY European parliament where the ruling power has absplute power to pass what they want and with an unelected second housereaffirming centuries of Old Landed Power, like that AWFUL, sneaky Mogg?

 

Are you capable of communicating in any other way than socialist rhetoric & hyperbole? :huh:

Edited September 20, 20177 yr by vidcapper

Gina Miller is not the Prime Minister of the country! May's whole job is to be responsible and professional and she can't even manage that!

Please STOP making assumptions about me!

 

1. I never said I have a problem with the European Parliament - it is the EU don't like.

 

2. WTF makes you think I consider Farage a hero? :huh: He is just a useful idiot who was able to unite opposition to the EU well enough to win the referendum.

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law.

 

I suppose you don't have a problem with Gina Miller's own interference in the Brexit process?

Are you capable of communicating in any other way than socialist rhetoric & hyperbole? :huh:

 

It is not hyperbole when it is the truth?

 

Answer the question.

 

Is this a great shining beacon of democracy, and has this shining beacon been improved by a ridiculous Brexit which takes everyone's focus, making the country itself insular, isolated and preoccupied?

It is not hyperbole when it is the truth?

 

Answer the question.

 

Is this a great shining beacon of democracy, and has this shining beacon been improved by a ridiculous Brexit which takes everyone's focus, making the country itself insular, isolated and preoccupied?

 

Post a valid question which is not full of emotive language, and I will be happy to answer it.

 

That Brexit is 'ridiculous' is just your opinion, but the result of the referendum stands, and the government pledged to implement the result - there was no caveat 'as long as we agree with it'.

 

I quote from the gov'ts own leaflet

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-for-the-uk.pdf

 

'This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.'

Except it was an ADVISORY referendum, not a binding one, isn't it?

 

And the % between the two sides was exceedingly narrow, right?

 

Answer the question. Is the democracy here better than European democracy and as democracy here been improved by this ridiculous farce?

Except it was an ADVISORY referendum, not a binding one, isn't it?

 

And the % between the two sides was exceedingly narrow, right?

 

Answer the question. Is the democracy here better than European democracy and as democracy here been improved by this ridiculous farce?

 

:lol: The old 'advisory' line again! I don't know a single person who went to vote who treated it as anything other than binding.

 

Two points :

 

1. The Brexit vote would surely have been higher if it had been deemed advisory beforehand, as the 'undecideds' would see it as less of a risk.

 

2. Remainers would have been as unhappy with a four point loss in a specifically stated binding referendum, as in an 'advisory' one, so what difference does it make?

 

As for the other question : Yes * 2 (although you are letting your emotions run away with you again, with phrases like 'ridiculous farce')

You are lying on all counts.

 

It was specifically non-binding, no matter the vitrolic and racist and sometimes Nazi rhetoric from Farage et al.

 

Secondly, the democracy in the UK is a shambles. Absolute shambles, designed for two parties dominated by the elite. It is thr ONLY democracy like that in Europe. The EU is more democratic.

You are lying on all counts.

 

Wrong again!

 

It was specifically non-binding, no matter the vitrolic and racist and sometimes Nazi rhetoric from Farage et al.

 

Secondly, the democracy in the UK is a shambles. Absolute shambles, designed for two parties dominated by the elite. It is thr ONLY democracy like that in Europe. The EU is more democratic.

 

You seem to have a real problem with answers they defy your expectations. You seem to think that non-one should dare hold opinions contrary to yours.

 

The referendum bill did *not* specifically state it was non-binding!

 

Our democracy has survived for centuries, so there can't be too much wrong with it... :rolleyes:

Please STOP making assumptions about me!

 

1. I never said I have a problem with the European Parliament - it is the EU don't like.

 

2. WTF makes you think I consider Farage a hero? :huh: He is just a useful idiot who was able to unite opposition to the EU well enough to win the referendum.

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law.

 

I suppose you don't have a problem with Gina Miller's own interference in the Brexit process?

Are you capable of communicating in any other way than socialist rhetoric & hyperbole? :huh:

1. One and the same. The EU is more or less represented by EP, any laws not liked can be debated and amended if democratically agreed.

 

Gina miller was ensuring the government was carrying out its legal duty in consulting parliament. That she had to go to court to establish what all knew to be the case is a devastating indictment of how UNDEMOCRATIC Teresa May and her bunch of rich senseofentitlement tossers are, and also how useless Corbyn and his cronies are when it comes to protecting the centuries-old british parliamentary system. So much for taking back control. Its actually taking control AWAY from parliament and by implication, The UK people. Thst youchoose to ignore this shows mg comments about the ends being used to justify the means remain as true as ever and its not actually democracy you want at all. Its leaving the EU even at the expense of drmocracy.

I'm not the one trying to rewrite history. I've never denied that immigration was a factor - I just don't believe it was the *deciding* one for most Leavers. As for why I don't like the EU, it's only a couple of days since I posted a list of (non-immigration-related) reasons why. If you don't agree with them, fine, but please don't dismiss them solely on that basis.

 

As for the House Of Lords, which you seem curiously reticent to name, unlike the EU Parliament they cannot *pass* legislation, only debate proposed laws & suggest amendments, but the HOC is under no obligation to accept such amendments.

You listed some suggested benefits which is fair enough, but they werent actually examples of legislation, they were more hopes and desires that may or may not result from brexit - that is a matter of opjnion and discussion, as i responded at the time, and applauded you for being specific even if i disagree with most of them.

 

 

The Lords primary function is to tidy up pisspoor legislation, or make the government think again about some aspect of it. Being rich and priveliged or former MPs is not required to do that. A second elected democratically PR House can do that. That is the only democratic way to achieve this while still having our distorted first padt the post system for the Commons.

 

The very name and origin of the Lords kinda shows it was there to ensure rich folk still remained in power.

 

There's seems to be a common theme amongst many Remainers that Brexiters didn't really understand what they were voting for.

 

IMO that line of reasoning is absurd - it was the job of the Remain camp to explain exactly that, and if they failed to adequately do so, the blame for it can't be pinned on Leavers.

 

ISTM therefore, that any criticism they make about the public 'not being fully aware of the consequences' of Brexit simply reflects the deficiencies of their own campaign.