His past voting record on the subject, should have given them a clue...

Indeed, but the cult of Corbyn seems to have overriden tedious things like facts.

I wouldn't worry. He will call a second referendum after winning the election and trying his hands at negotiations and realising that the EU does not shift its red lines. In or out, play by the rules or don't stay.

I wouldn't worry. He will call a second referendum after winning the election and trying his hands at negotiations and realising that the EU does not shift its red lines. In or out, play by the rules or don't stay.

 

No he won't. He wants Brexit and will just try to negotiate a better deal and agree to give Gibraltar to Spain. The guy is clueless and if Labour have any long term plans to govern the country they need to get rid of him.

 

You have 16 million people who didn't vote for Brexit. That is a large amount of voters that are completely alienated and know that 1) leaving the EU is bad 2) leaving the EU without a deal is absolutely stupid.

Also, whilst y'all are being distracted by this distopian evil Orwellian campaign against Corbyn, y'all might have missed this:

 

Corbyn will repeal an 18TH CENTURY TORY POOR HOUSE LAW!! which criminalises rough sleepers. Tory toffa create mass poverty and then criminalise being homeless. This law was designed, and probably still is, especially if Mogg gets in, to force the poor into work houses.

 

Corbyn will also decriminalise la Maria - even though it should be legal anyway - and the sex industry.

 

 

I think the problem here is that those who are campaigning for a second referendum (and I will admit that I have recently become open to the argument that this may be the only way forward) have spent most of the last 2 years preaching to the converted, rather than actually engaging with those who actually voted leave. The time could have been spent in the majority voting leave areas of England and Wales finding out WHY people voted leave, the problems that caused such a vote, and how the benefits of being in the EU could help to resolve these issues and WIN THE ARGUMENT. I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he was the only one in 2016 who stood on a 'remain and reform' platform, all the others channelled Project Fear after it just about paid-off for Lynton Crosby in 2014 and 2015 and it spectacularly backfired. It is clear IMO that the policy of seeking a general election and upon winning that trying to renegotiate a deal without the red lines that May has boxed herself into a corner with, does what was promised in the 2017 Manifesto - to respect the vote but also attempts to reach out and listen to those who voted remain. Seeking a 2nd referendum first just looks like wilfully trying to overturn the result just because you didn't like it. Yes I don't like it, I voted remain, but we have to accept that we are where we are and that moving to a 2nd referendum should only be a last resort when all other options (bar crashing out with no-deal) have been exhausted.

 

Whilst the majority of Labour voters wanted remain, the majority of Labour constituencies and target seats were for leave - there is a delicate coalition between metropolitan city heavy remain areas that are Labour and rundown former industrial towns heavy for leave that also are Labour. This is the tight-rope any leader would have to walk, Corbyn or otherwise.

 

From where I see it positions have become hardened and were there to be a 2nd referendum it would be incredibly divisive once again and there is still the possibility that leave would win again, possibly by a bigger margin, so we press that button at our peril.

I think the problem here is that those who are campaigning for a second referendum (and I will admit that I have recently become open to the argument that this may be the only way forward) have spent most of the last 2 years preaching to the converted, rather than actually engaging with those who actually voted leave. The time could have been spent in the majority voting leave areas of England and Wales finding out WHY people voted leave, the problems that caused such a vote, and how the benefits of being in the EU could help to resolve these issues and WIN THE ARGUMENT. I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he was the only one in 2016 who stood on a 'remain and reform' platform, all the others channelled Project Fear after it just about paid-off for Lynton Crosby in 2014 and 2015 and it spectacularly backfired. It is clear IMO that the policy of seeking a general election and upon winning that trying to renegotiate a deal without the red lines that May has boxed herself into a corner with, does what was promised in the 2017 Manifesto - to respect the vote but also attempts to reach out and listen to those who voted remain. Seeking a 2nd referendum first just looks like wilfully trying to overturn the result just because you didn't like it. Yes I don't like it, I voted remain, but we have to accept that we are where we are and that moving to a 2nd referendum should only be a last resort when all other options (bar crashing out with no-deal) have been exhausted.

 

Whilst the majority of Labour voters wanted remain, the majority of Labour constituencies and target seats were for leave - there is a delicate coalition between metropolitan city heavy remain areas that are Labour and rundown former industrial towns heavy for leave that also are Labour. This is the tight-rope any leader would have to walk, Corbyn or otherwise.

 

From where I see it positions have become hardened and were there to be a 2nd referendum it would be incredibly divisive once again and there is still the possibility that leave would win again, possibly by a bigger margin, so we press that button at our peril.

 

BRAVO!!

 

Corbyn has spent time in leave areas, discussing it with them. He is in the best position to end Brexit with a referendum on a reformed EU remain position and his leave deal.

I think the problem here is that those who are campaigning for a second referendum (and I will admit that I have recently become open to the argument that this may be the only way forward) have spent most of the last 2 years preaching to the converted, rather than actually engaging with those who actually voted leave. The time could have been spent in the majority voting leave areas of England and Wales finding out WHY people voted leave, the problems that caused such a vote, and how the benefits of being in the EU could help to resolve these issues and WIN THE ARGUMENT. I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he was the only one in 2016 who stood on a 'remain and reform' platform, all the others channelled Project Fear after it just about paid-off for Lynton Crosby in 2014 and 2015 and it spectacularly backfired. It is clear IMO that the policy of seeking a general election and upon winning that trying to renegotiate a deal without the red lines that May has boxed herself into a corner with, does what was promised in the 2017 Manifesto - to respect the vote but also attempts to reach out and listen to those who voted remain. Seeking a 2nd referendum first just looks like wilfully trying to overturn the result just because you didn't like it. Yes I don't like it, I voted remain, but we have to accept that we are where we are and that moving to a 2nd referendum should only be a last resort when all other options (bar crashing out with no-deal) have been exhausted.

 

Whilst the majority of Labour voters wanted remain, the majority of Labour constituencies and target seats were for leave - there is a delicate coalition between metropolitan city heavy remain areas that are Labour and rundown former industrial towns heavy for leave that also are Labour. This is the tight-rope any leader would have to walk, Corbyn or otherwise.

 

From where I see it positions have become hardened and were there to be a 2nd referendum it would be incredibly divisive once again and there is still the possibility that leave would win again, possibly by a bigger margin, so we press that button at our peril.

You might be interested to know that there is a definite swing to Remain amongst the so-called 'Left Behind' areas. The national swing isn't quite so clear-cut, but Leave becoming much less of an anti-establishment project has had effects in the areas you'd expect.

 

I really don't think Remain can win from a middle-ground 'Remain and Reform' campaign. Not least because 'reform' has been interpreted by some, such as Tony Blair, as getting unfeasible concessions on Freedom of Movement.

 

Remain needs to actually sell the EU rather than running a scaremongering campaign, and this includes defending FoM. This will never convince those who believe the EU is the Fourth Reich, and it'll never convince EDL types. But pragmatic leavers who want a way out of the deadlock, as well as those anti-establishment 2016 voters, who aren't particularly politically engaged, are winnable. It will energise the base, boost turnout amongst younger people, and Remain have built up a slight advantage due to demographic change and fading enthusiasm amongst Leave voters (many of whom may not switch to Remain, but could well abstain from voting). Leave could still win, of course.

Edited December 22, 20186 yr by Harve

You might be interested to know that there is a definite swing to Remain amongst the so-called 'Left Behind' areas. The national swing isn't quite so clear-cut, but Leave becoming much less of an anti-establishment project has had effects in the areas you'd expect.

 

I really don't think Remain can win from a middle-ground 'Remain and Reform' campaign. Not least because 'reform' has been interpreted by some, such as Tony Blair, as getting unfeasible concessions on Freedom of Movement.

 

Remain needs to actually sell the EU rather than running a scaremongering campaign, and this includes defending FoM. This will never convince those who believe the EU is the Fourth Reich, and it'll never convince EDL types. But pragmatic leavers who want a way out of the deadlock, as well as those anti-establishment 2016 voters, who aren't particularly politically engaged, are winnable. It will energise the base, boost turnout amongst younger people, and Remain have built up a slight advantage due to demographic change and fading enthusiasm amongst Leave voters (many of whom may not switch to Remain, but could well abstain from voting). Leave could still win, of course.

 

Agreed that Freedom of Movement should be defended. That I think is the big error that Theresa May and her team in number 10 made actually, by ruling it out they have effectively boxed themselves into an impossible position, removing many of the more remain-friendly options (without the need for an Irish backstop) that could command a majority in the HoC.

 

What could the EU reform on? Well that is a tricky question - but when you see Italy forced to redraft their budget when France's now breaks the same rule - with no consequences for them - you can see that some severe reforms are needed!

 

Anyway, we're talking about Labour in this thread and my main point really was to try to explain the reason for Corbyn's position. Deliberately nebulous and at the moment still playing out the 'respecting the result of the referendum' card. But as I predicted at the end of 2017 Labour have moved further towards a remain position this year with regard to single-market access and the customs union, and pressure from the grass roots will undoubtably push them further in 2019. Corbyn historically is not a Europhile but I think he does believe in a democratic-socialist European project and how much a part the UK could play in that, and I think his position has changed over the decades, which ultimately is the journey we need those who voted leave 30 months ago to also take.

I wouldn't worry. He will call a second referendum after winning the election and trying his hands at negotiations and realising that the EU does not shift its red lines. In or out, play by the rules or don't stay.

So we agree hes too stupid to realise that.

Either that or he is telling porkies about his intentions....

 

Also, whilst y'all are being distracted by this distopian evil Orwellian campaign against Corbyn, y'all might have missed this:

 

Corbyn will repeal an 18TH CENTURY TORY POOR HOUSE LAW!! which criminalises rough sleepers. Tory toffa create mass poverty and then criminalise being homeless. This law was designed, and probably still is, especially if Mogg gets in, to force the poor into work houses.

 

Corbyn will also decriminalise la Maria - even though it should be legal anyway - and the sex industry.

Err so his major media blitz given the crisis we are in is to kill a law that nobody uses. I mean it would be hilarious if it wasnt our future he is playing games with...

Re other replies, latest polls show a substntial majority of the public now back a referendum now theyve seen the tesults. Plus yknow ilegal campaign, russian interference, lies and false promises.

 

Changing your mind is a basis of democracy, ESPECIALLY IF ITS IRREVERSIBLE AND HUGELY DAMAGING.

 

The ones not wanting a final check, as rees mogg campaigned in 2011, and farage demanded on the night if the result when he lied that he had lost knowing he had won in order to get millions short selling the pound, have all changed their minds. So thats ok for them but not voters.

 

Playing party politics at this time is unforgiveable. The only issue is the future well being of the country not the future well being of jeremy corbyn.

Turns out that article is A BUNCH OF BULL designed to get the ant-Corbyn brigade disseminating this FAKE NEWS. This Orwellian media nightmare continues.

 

Let's look at the REAL FACTS behind what he said. Clue: it's nothing as exciting as that FAKE NEWS oligarchy plutocracy Tory supporting headline x

 

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018...dJUHOSXlH68l9yc

I think the problem here is that those who are campaigning for a second referendum (and I will admit that I have recently become open to the argument that this may be the only way forward) have spent most of the last 2 years preaching to the converted, rather than actually engaging with those who actually voted leave. The time could have been spent in the majority voting leave areas of England and Wales finding out WHY people voted leave, the problems that caused such a vote, and how the benefits of being in the EU could help to resolve these issues and WIN THE ARGUMENT. I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he was the only one in 2016 who stood on a 'remain and reform' platform, all the others channelled Project Fear after it just about paid-off for Lynton Crosby in 2014 and 2015 and it spectacularly backfired. It is clear IMO that the policy of seeking a general election and upon winning that trying to renegotiate a deal without the red lines that May has boxed herself into a corner with, does what was promised in the 2017 Manifesto - to respect the vote but also attempts to reach out and listen to those who voted remain. Seeking a 2nd referendum first just looks like wilfully trying to overturn the result just because you didn't like it. Yes I don't like it, I voted remain, but we have to accept that we are where we are and that moving to a 2nd referendum should only be a last resort when all other options (bar crashing out with no-deal) have been exhausted.

 

Whilst the majority of Labour voters wanted remain, the majority of Labour constituencies and target seats were for leave - there is a delicate coalition between metropolitan city heavy remain areas that are Labour and rundown former industrial towns heavy for leave that also are Labour. This is the tight-rope any leader would have to walk, Corbyn or otherwise.

 

From where I see it positions have become hardened and were there to be a 2nd referendum it would be incredibly divisive once again and there is still the possibility that leave would win again, possibly by a bigger margin, so we press that button at our peril.

 

THIS

Turns out that article is A BUNCH OF BULL designed to get the ant-Corbyn brigade disseminating this FAKE NEWS. This Orwellian media nightmare continues.

 

Let's look at the REAL FACTS behind what he said. Clue: it's nothing as exciting as that FAKE NEWS oligarchy plutocracy Tory supporting headline x

 

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018...dJUHOSXlH68l9yc

 

By 'Real Facts' people generally mean 'opinions I agree with'. :P

Turns out that article is A BUNCH OF BULL designed to get the ant-Corbyn brigade disseminating this FAKE NEWS. This Orwellian media nightmare continues.

 

Let's look at the REAL FACTS behind what he said. Clue: it's nothing as exciting as that FAKE NEWS oligarchy plutocracy Tory supporting headline x

 

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018...dJUHOSXlH68l9yc

This is spin. The original article made the same quotes. Esentially corbyn is playing for time to get a hradbrexit by default and you are falling for it. The eu wont renogiate its not an option and the longer he leaves it means we can only ask for an eu extension for a referendum or hard brexit. By pissing about hes giving us hard brexit and his careful bland platitudes towards listening to his support base while he asks for something that isnt going to happen means we wnd up with hardbrexit by default. As usual he does nothing. Its his default position. I mean how much evidence do ypu need that he has always wanted brexit, still wants brexit, and isnt supporting members last minute final try calls to avoid a hardbrexit before its too late because hes worried we will bote remain!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2...MP=share_btn_tw

This is spin. The original article made the same quotes. Esentially corbyn is playing for time to get a hradbrexit by default and you are falling for it.

 

So that'll be why he tabled a motion of no confidence in the PM after she failed to bring the deal back before parliament last week. Hmm...

So that'll be why he tabled a motion of no confidence in the PM after she failed to bring the deal back before parliament last week. Hmm...

Yes, a meaningless vote on the PM. A completely pointless exercise which would have achieved nothing.

Far better to table a motion of no confidence in the government, that would definitely be voted down and also achieve nothing eh?

Which would then allow Dictator May and her billionaire press to act with impunity for an ENTIRE year and push through whatever Brexit she wanted, leaving the opposition powerless x

I think JC has played this ok. Be difficult if labour actually have to take a position on this!