It is because he is a talented socialist politician.

 

Try going for a walk around Seacroft and Harehills and asking that question.

I disagree with him because he is a complete idiot, not because I disagree with his views. There is numerous evidence of his own personal gaffs and select memory and that's even without his personal views on anti-semitism.

 

Why is he an idiot?

Why is he an idiot?

 

See him most times he's up against the media, some of it is unfair, but he is fairly terrible against the media which unfortunately you need (he did have one good Question Time performance). Some terrible policy ideas which are completely impractical and downright stupid, see his 'Re-selection' idea for one. It completely misses the point. Also see him right now, he's already briefing off the record what he's already said on it. And like I've said as well, just take a walk around Harehills or Seacroft.

I’m not from there tbf and doubt I will ever walk round it, it in Leeds?

 

I think his policies reflect the Labour left!

I’m not from there tbf and doubt I will ever walk round it, it in Leeds?

 

I think his policies reflect the Labour left!

 

Yes they're suburbs of Leeds. He is far too obsessed with his own personal ambitions than his constituency these days.

See him most times he's up against the media, some of it is unfair, but he is fairly terrible against the media which unfortunately you need (he did have one good Question Time performance). Some terrible policy ideas which are completely impractical and downright stupid, see his 'Re-selection' idea for one. It completely misses the point. Also see him right now, he's already briefing off the record what he's already said on it. And like I've said as well, just take a walk around Harehills or Seacroft.

 

Well considering he is an MP for those areas with a healthy-ish majority then he must have some fans there. A lot of your criticisms are just insults without going into detail - that is a successful campaign used ty the bullying right wing media to demonise the left , just say things are terrible and ridiculous and a joke in order to evade actually talking about the policies in hand. That was used by great effect for Corbyn and will be used against anyone trying to fight the common good and a fairer society (except for when the Tories nick the ideas later). No doubt he does gaffes and is unpolished for the media (which he can improve on) but then again we have a Government of Boris Johnson ("let the bodies pile high", shaking covid patients hands and siphons public funds for anything he wants really).

 

I looked up Richard Burgon and reselection and it seems to be the same idea that is successfully used by the Democrats in the USA which has just won an election and is a progressive(ish) government there.

Building on Smint's post:

 

Urgings for Labour to move to the right 'as an alternative to the Tories' are when you stop and think for a moment, pretty transparent aims to get Labour to alienate its existing voters in order to increase Tory vote-share.

 

Compare if you love Oreo cookies. If custard creams change everything about themselves to become almost as good as Oreos, are you going to switch from the Oreos you know and trust to them, or are you going to stick with what you know? Meanwhile, what are people who liked the old custard creams going to do?

Yes they're suburbs of Leeds. He is far too obsessed with his own personal ambitions than his constituency these days.

 

Riiiight. MPs have to balance constituency with national needs if they are high up in their parties... He is far better than basically AAANY Tory mp. Why is it one rule for Blojo and Mad May and another for Labour?

 

Meanwhile, he keeps winning and I, living closer to Leeds than you have never heard a bad word sbout him. These are just more right wing talking points from you.

A quick reminder to right wing Rooney about 2017... Labour had just had a CIVIL WAR CAUSED BY THE PLP!!! They would have won without the anti-Corbyn neoliberal coup for starters, without even touching on the election sabotage they undertook. Sorry.

Well considering he is an MP for those areas with a healthy-ish majority then he must have some fans there. A lot of your criticisms are just insults without going into detail - that is a successful campaign used ty the bullying right wing media to demonise the left , just say things are terrible and ridiculous and a joke in order to evade actually talking about the policies in hand. That was used by great effect for Corbyn and will be used against anyone trying to fight the common good and a fairer society (except for when the Tories nick the ideas later). No doubt he does gaffes and is unpolished for the media (which he can improve on) but then again we have a Government of Boris Johnson ("let the bodies pile high", shaking covid patients hands and siphons public funds for anything he wants really).

 

I looked up Richard Burgon and reselection and it seems to be the same idea that is successfully used by the Democrats in the USA which has just won an election and is a progressive(ish) government there.

 

Did you also look up his views on anti-semitism? Yes he has a healthy majority, which is partly because he is from Leeds. But it's also a dwindling majority and also one which is going to dwindle even more as he has become so obsessed with his own personal ambitions. Next time he pops up, just watch him and you will see what I mean. Having progressive policies is fine, but having the competence to implement them is one thing. I'm not a fan of people being overpromoted because of their ideology rather than their experience to perform the roles. The Tories do the same too under Boris.

A quick reminder to right wing Rooney about 2017... Labour had just had a CIVIL WAR CAUSED BY THE PLP!!! They would have won without the anti-Corbyn neoliberal coup for starters, without even touching on the election sabotage they undertook. Sorry.

 

Ah yes, the famous "but we would have won if it weren't for..." in 2017. Along with the "widespread support" for the 2019 manifesto, two of my all-time favourite narratives. Along with the fact anyone who dares to not be a fan of socialism is immeditately labelled a 'Tory' or 'Right Wing. Well if nothing else, there is consistency.

Did you also look up his views on anti-semitism? Yes he has a healthy majority, which is partly because he is from Leeds. But it's also a dwindling majority and also one which is going to dwindle even more as he has become so obsessed with his own personal ambitions. Next time he pops up, just watch him and you will see what I mean. Having progressive policies is fine, but having the competence to implement them is one thing. I'm not a fan of people being overpromoted because of their ideology rather than their experience to perform the roles. The Tories do the same too under Boris.

 

I’ve done a google search and he’s regretted early comments he made re Zionism. Re: the Pledge he wouldn’t sign last year there is a discussion to be had - perhaps not on this forum.

Edited May 9, 20214 yr by Smint

Burgon is good, and an impressive speaker when I've seen him. We need more MPs who are committed to identifying problems in our society, speaking up about them and finding problems to fix it. Too few of those in the Labour party, I can only think of maybe a few others, Whittome, McDonnell, Lammy, Sultana, Lewis, who are committed to speaking out and finding a way for Labour to win over voters and keep those it already has by offering them reasons to turn out, a fair wage, a social democratic state that values people, not profit.

 

So much more of a winning message than the safe, obligatory messaging of Starmer's leadership, notably he hasn't tweeted even once to recognise Labour's victories that have come in in the second half of the results, like the West Yorkshire mayor for instance. Definitely feels like he's really busy with a crisis of leadership, which is excellent, there needs to be a sharp change - look at what actually won, mayors, MPs and councils with a plan, with a record, with an idea of what they wanted to do.

Burgon is good, and an impressive speaker when I've seen him. We need more MPs who are committed to identifying problems in our society, speaking up about them and finding problems to fix it. Too few of those in the Labour party, I can only think of maybe a few others, Whittome, McDonnell, Lammy, Sultana, Lewis, who are committed to speaking out and finding a way for Labour to win over voters and keep those it already has by offering them reasons to turn out, a fair wage, a social democratic state that values people, not profit.

 

So much more of a winning message than the safe, obligatory messaging of Starmer's leadership, notably he hasn't tweeted even once to recognise Labour's victories that have come in in the second half of the results, like the West Yorkshire mayor for instance. Definitely feels like he's really busy with a crisis of leadership, which is excellent, there needs to be a sharp change - look at what actually won, mayors, MPs and councils with a plan, with a record, with an idea of what they wanted to do.

 

But who does Labour get in to replace Starmer? I can use my favourite football anology here, it's ok sacking your boss if you have a good replacement. Otherwise it's still going to end up with the same result. The clear winner in terms of being able to unify all factions of the Party and someone who I suspect would have widespread populist appeal would be Burnham. But he is not leaving his current position anytime soon. I really like Lammy too but not sure he is quite ready for it yet, or if he actually has the ambition at this moment in time.

 

The Labour results weren't that bad all things considered but it's been a horrible few days for the party. I keep reading stuff about the mythical Salford and Preston council results. But not Wigan for example. Or wider Manchester. The model has worked for a long time in Preston. Sure wish there was a University in every town..

 

Mentioned it a few times, but the way to go in the North is to offer more devolution. I think as the stuff in Scotland ramps up, you'll see similar in the North. Yes I know queue some Game of Thrones jokes :lol: But just look at where the protest votes are starting to go, who came 3rd in the Mayoral election in West Yorkshire? Yep, the Yorkshire Party- ahead of both the Greens and Lib Dems.

I also agree that devolution would be good for the North and ideally start moving towards full federalisation to support all the regions equallly - there's only so much treating that the Tories can do in the North before maybe the SE and certainly the South West and East Anglia (i.e. the South outside London and a voting base the Tories might well be taking for granted) start to get antsy.

 

On replacing Starmer, I do think that if he loses the upcoming Batley & Spen by-election (if he selects another candidate unilaterally especially) then that should be taken as a sign for him to go - Rayner could well angle herself into the leadership position.

Not sure Lammy would be up for it Roo, he’s been an MP since what 1997? He just doesn’t have enough support within the party for me and is ideologically all over the place. Who would be the left candidate in any leadership election going forward? I’m not sure....maybe Burgeon is the most senior at present but not sure he’s a leader.

I also agree that devolution would be good for the North and ideally start moving towards full federalisation to support all the regions equallly - there's only so much treating that the Tories can do in the North before maybe the SE and certainly the South West and East Anglia (i.e. the South outside London and a voting base the Tories might well be taking for granted) start to get antsy.

 

On replacing Starmer, I do think that if he loses the upcoming Batley & Spen by-election (if he selects another candidate unilaterally especially) then that should be taken as a sign for him to go - Rayner could well angle herself into the leadership position.

 

I certainly think it's on the cards of the way things will go. Maybe not just yet, but certainly over the next 10-15 years. Problem is the Tories can throw jobs at the North but it only sticks for so long. The Northern Powerhouse concept was abandoned and let's just take Leeds as an example - the largest city in Europe without any form of public metro/transport system. It's embarrassing really, not only is Leeds well connected to the North West, it also has great links to the North and East of Yorkshire too and serves the whole of West Yorkshire too.. Instead the Government piles a whole load of money in to HS2. So much potential there, but is primarily abandoned because it votes Labour. And while I can throw a whole load of shade at the Government, it's also been missed massively by Labour too (although they haven't been in power for over 10 years I can maybe cut them a little more slack).

 

Unfortunately I cannot see them holding Batley & Spen. Maybe in a general election, but it's a Leave seat and the Tories will know it is achievable in a by-election. Maybe the Jo Cox thing might still play on the minds, but it will also be over 5 years too so who knows.

 

Not sure Lammy would be up for it Roo, he’s been an MP since what 1997? He just doesn’t have enough support within the party for me and is ideologically all over the place. Who would be the left candidate in any leadership election going forward? I’m not sure....maybe Burgeon is the most senior at present but not sure he’s a leader.

 

That's the thing Steve, I don't think there is another hard left-wing candidate. The events over the weekend were a bit of a throw of the dice to make a Leadership challenge from Momentum reading between the lines. Definitely a coordinated attack, but there is not another leader. Burgeon would not command any form of support across the Party imo. Someone like Burnham would harmonise the Party for sure, but just not his time yet. Suspect he wouldn't put his name forward unless he is guaranteed too after the last failed bids.

Rooney, this is all ideology. You are ignoring all evidence in favour of your centre-right ideals. The fact is Corbyn was not hard left; he is moderate, European, left of centre. This is a fact. Sorry that it does not fit in with the right wing narrative of the country and its shifted Overton Window, but it is a fact. Burgeon is moderate left. Rayner is left of centre. These are NOT hard left candidates. Fuethermore, as WE KEEP SAYING, left wing policies are immensely popular; so popular, in fact, the entire neoliberal state, including centrist Labourites, had to attack Corbyn, and he still nearly won, even following a coup and 63% of the media time - following a university study - given to his detractors from WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY in an effort to shut him down. So popular are these policies, in fact, that the Tories keep stealing them and shunting to the left economically. You would love a Mad May or a Cretinous Cameron to lead Labour, but that isn't Labour; that's the Tories, or Lib Dems in a bad year. Labour is about the left.

 

Oh and just to drive home the point that your view of the left-right paradigm has been so WARPED by the UK's shifted Overton Window, when i'm in Europe, I come across people FAR more left wing than I am. In fact, I am considered the RIGHT WING one among them. Corbyn's Labour is moderate European social democratism. We aren't hard left, but you could certainly do with learning what hard left is, because Momentum and the Labour left ain't it.

Rooney, this is all ideology. You are ignoring all evidence in favour of your centre-right ideals. The fact is Corbyn was not hard left; he is moderate, European, left of centre. This is a fact. Sorry that it does not fit in with the right wing narrative of the country and its shifted Overton Window, but it is a fact. Burgeon is moderate left. Rayner is left of centre. These are NOT hard left candidates. Fuethermore, as WE KEEP SAYING, left wing policies are immensely popular; so popular, in fact, the entire neoliberal state, including centrist Labourites, had to attack Corbyn, and he still nearly won, even following a coup and 63% of the media time - following a university study - given to his detractors from WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY in an effort to shut him down. So popular are these policies, in fact, that the Tories keep stealing them and shunting to the left economically. You would love a Mad May or a Cretinous Cameron to lead Labour, but that isn't Labour; that's the Tories, or Lib Dems in a bad year. Labour is about the left.

 

Oh and just to drive home the point that your view of the left-right paradigm has been so WARPED by the UK's shifted Overton Window, when i'm in Europe, I come across people FAR more left wing than I am. In fact, I am considered the RIGHT WING one among them. Corbyn's Labour is moderate European social democratism. We aren't hard left, but you could certainly do with learning what hard left is, because Momentum and the Labour left ain't it.

 

I don't want to derail the thread Michael as we were having some good points of discussion. I'm afraid we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I totally agree the left-wing economic policies are wholly popular. But I remain less convinced that left-wing social identity policies are popular with the wider electorate. Of course that is just my own personal opinion.

 

But your latter point is often what really I fail to understand about the hard-left group or the 'moderates 'as you put them. I continually see it, it's a competition who can be as left-wing as possible and anyone who isn't as pure left wing as possible is immediately labelled a Tory in this country or Right-wing in others.

How has the title of this thread had a unique pertinence for the Labour Party for as long as this thread has been running and has been the only thing that has been consistent throughout the rollercoaster of the last 10 years of British politics.