August 18, 20177 yr Author There's free speech and being a decent human being and not spouting hate speech. Quite so - free speech is like the fire brigade, you hope you'll never have to use them, but at least it's there... ***** Another issue : what about iconoclasm? We condemn ISIS when they destroy cultural and/or religious icons - but isn't that happening to a lesser degree here & in the US, iro of statues of people like Cecil Rhodes & Robert E Lee? Hopefully most of us agree that we cannot judge historical figures through modern sensibilities? Yes, we may find the actions they took objectionable, but at the time they were probably considered normal and/or necessary.
August 18, 20177 yr Are you seriously drawing parallels between the destruction of Palmyra and the toppling of a statue of a racist but up by racists as part of the systematic oppression of African Americans. Mother jones has an article that I'll find the link to later that shows that the vast majority of these statues were put up either during the KKKs time of prominence or during the most recent civil rights battle. They are racist statues put up by racists for racist reasons. Of course they should be toppled. Removing a statue doesn't change history but it does remove iconography of systematic oppression of many Americans. Don't exactly see many statues of people like Franco or Mousolini
August 18, 20177 yr Author Are you seriously drawing parallels between the destruction of Palmyra and the toppling of a statue of a racist but up by racists as part of the systematic oppression of African Americans. Mother jones has an article that I'll find the link to later that shows that the vast majority of these statues were put up either during the KKKs time of prominence or during the most recent civil rights battle. They are racist statues put up by racists for racist reasons. Of course they should be toppled. Removing a statue doesn't change history but it does remove iconography of systematic oppression of many Americans. Don't exactly see many statues of people like Franco or Mousolini Do you think the KKK were/are more evil than ISIS?
August 18, 20177 yr Both are vile scum. It doesn't matter who is "more evil" both have no place in civilised society and should be brought to justice for the atrocities they have committed.
August 19, 20177 yr Author Both are vile scum. It doesn't matter who is "more evil" both have no place in civilised society and should be brought to justice for the atrocities they have committed. AIUI the Charlottesville driver *is* in custody. :unsure:
August 19, 20177 yr I don't even know what ridiculous point you are trying to make there. But if we want to talk about the KKK/Nazi's/White Supremacists of the world not being brought to justice then let's start with this: DeAndre Harris was beaten half to death with metal poles by white supremacists in a carpark *literally* next door to a police station in Charlottesville and 0 of his attackers are in custody but 9 have been charged in Durham, North Carolina for pulling down a statue of a racist c**t. I think we know where America's priorities lie.
August 19, 20177 yr Author I don't even know what ridiculous point you are trying to make there. My point was that you have to have evidence against someone before you can put them on trial, given that being a racist is not in itself a crime. But if we want to talk about the KKK/Nazi's/White Supremacists of the world not being brought to justice then let's start with this: DeAndre Harris was beaten half to death with metal poles by white supremacists in a carpark *literally* next door to a police station in Charlottesville and 0 of his attackers are in custodyIf there are witnesses, CCTV or DNA evidence, that may change. but 9 have been charged in Durham, North Carolina for pulling down a statue of a racist c**t. I think we know where America's priorities lie. Just like British police, they go after the easy targets. Edited August 19, 20177 yr by vidcapper
August 21, 20177 yr 9 have been charged in Durham, North Carolina for pulling down a statue of a racist c**t. As I said towns could keep the Confederate statues but add more to them showing the Confederate generals obviously getting beaten in battle by the Union ones and that would keep everyone happy as General Lee or whoever the Confederate general is there already would still be there but it would show the triumph of the Union in the American Civil War and triumph of good over evil. Edited August 21, 20177 yr by Hiß
August 21, 20177 yr Author As I said towns could keep the Confederate statues but add more to them showing the Confederate generals obviously getting beaten in battle by the Union ones and that would keep everyone happy as General Lee or whoever the Confederate general is there already would still be there but it would show the triumph of the Union in the American Civil War and triumph of good over evil. What I find ironic is that at the start of the war General Lee was also offered command of a Union army. With hindsight, he was in the same invidious position as almost any general on the losing side of a war (*), given that history is written by the winners. (*) Erwin Rommel is one of the few who history cuts some slack. At the end of the day though, he was charged with defending the indefensible, and his reputation as a military commander will always have to be seen in that light.
August 21, 20177 yr What I find ironic is that at the start of the war General Lee was also offered command of a Union army. With hindsight, he was in the same invidious position as almost any general on the losing side of a war (*), given that history is written by the winners. (*) Erwin Rommel is one of the few who history cuts some slack. At the end of the day though, he was charged with defending the indefensible, and his reputation as a military commander will always have to be seen in that light. History, losing or winning, wouldn't give a toss as the reputation of someone who believed that enslavement was his moral right in order to remain rich. Some things are just 100% wrong. You consistently fail to get the link between hate speech and subsequent hate actions. That is blatantly clear. So you condone it through inaction or some "devil's advocate" BS. It's fairly clear where you would stand were Nazis REALLY marching and aiming at you, all of your rhetoric would go out the window and you would be blubbing in the street just like the gung-ho hate spouters in the USA are once faced with reality and consequences of actions. They are fine with the concept of spouting hate, but not fine with others standing up to it and expressing a fair and decent opinion, such as "you're fired!". If you think people are free to threaten you then you can't complain about them following it through to it's logical conclusion as you stand in front of them saying "well yes, I appreciate you want to hang me, and I totally agree with your right to say that. I'd rather you didn't, but you know, hey, what's with the noose. I object to this! I agreed to your right to turn up with the noose and express an opinion, but I didn't agree to be lynched, agh! ............................................................................." RIP. PS, I understand "100%" everything you think you are trying to say, which is to be argumentative (or "rebellious"). If people are misunderstanding what you are saying then perhaps you need to better express yourself. I'm pretty good at cutting through waffle to get the heart of what someone is saying - it's my job to deal with facts, and dig out truth in amongst legalspeak or moderday waffle equivalents, and translate it into plain English, and that includes Government waffle.
August 21, 20177 yr Author PS, I understand "100%" everything you think you are trying to say, which is to be argumentative (or "rebellious"). Unless you are telepathic you *cannot* understand 100% of what I am saying!
August 22, 20177 yr Unless you are telepathic you *cannot* understand 100% of what I am saying! oh my secret is out! :P
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