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EU/Brexit Discussion Thread II

Brett-Butler
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10%? 10? You really think the youth comprises that?

 

That depends on the age range you use.

 

According to the age distribution tables given here : https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandc...ulation/mar2017

 

... the age range 18-25 covers 10% of the population, so that seems a reasonable definition of Youth.

 

The youth PLUS the fact it is a razor thin 52/48 2.2 nation split means the whole shoddy thing should be cancelled. Let's talk again in 20 years x

 

I'd be happy if you could go 20 *days* without repeating the above mantra. :P

Edited by vidcapper

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amusing tweet:

 

@steveparks

Feb 28

 

One day’s news in the new UK economy:

1. Toys R Us UK goes bust

2. Maplin goes bust

3. Foxton shares down as London property market falls

4. ITV profits down as UK ad market falls

5. British Gas cutting 4,000 jobs

 

Strong And Stable

Taking Back Control

Getting On With The Job

 

(NB: We havent left the EU yet, it's been 10 years since the banking crisis, and all the claims of a healthy Brexit-loving-post-Brexit-prepared UK economy are still to turn up. 18 months in an the government are about to make a statement on what they want. Odds-on it will be the usual vacuous bluster and blinkered denials of reality.)

 

For once only I see Corbyn actually made a pithy statement about the Tory egotists. I'd love to know who wrote it for him....

One day’s news in the new UK economy:

1. Toys R Us UK goes bust

2. Maplin goes bust

3. Foxton shares down as London property market falls

4. ITV profits down as UK ad market falls

5. British Gas cutting 4,000 jobs

 

Strong And Stable

Taking Back Control

Getting On With The Job

 

(NB: We havent left the EU yet, it's been 10 years since the banking crisis, and all the claims of a healthy Brexit-loving-post-Brexit-prepared UK economy are still to turn up. 18 months in an the government are about to make a statement on what they want. Odds-on it will be the usual vacuous bluster and blinkered denials of reality.)

 

You do realize that companies went bust long before Brexit was ever heard of, right? :rolleyes:

 

You do realize that companies went bust long before Brexit was ever heard of, right? :rolleyes:

 

Yes. Imagine how lucky we are that Brexit is going to reverse firms going bankrupt and new jobs and businesses in the UK is going to go ahead with all those cheap imports.

 

Project Fear, just project fear that big names are going under right now just as they did during the banking crisis. Everything is fine. We'll be rolling in cash after March 2019. Hooray!

Yes. Imagine how lucky we are that Brexit is going to reverse firms going bankrupt and new jobs and businesses in the UK is going to go ahead with all those cheap imports.

 

Project Fear, just project fear that big names are going under right now just as they did during the banking crisis. Everything is fine. We'll be rolling in cash after March 2019. Hooray!

 

Hey, I'm supposed to be the sarcastic one here... :P

Hey, I'm supposed to be the sarcastic one here... :P

 

I come from World Sarcasm capital, Mansfield Notts. They have classes on it in Primary School....

"On Thursday, President Donald Trump announced his administration plans to impose a 25 percent tariff on steel and a 10 percent tariff on aluminium. The United States’ primary trade partners reacted immediately, leading to speculation of a trade war that caused significant drops in global markets.

 

Canada, the European Union, and Great Britain vowed to introduce tariffs against US imports in response to the new tariffs. Mexico, China and Brazil also announced retaliatory steps being considered."

 

Oops, how's that great US trade deal coming along Mrs May? Still besties with Donny? Foxy Loxy still bullshitting us about fabulous chlorinated chicken deals?

Fantastic speech from Theresa May today. Now let's sit back and watch in front of the world's media the EU get confused by a simple FTA with the UK. #RoadtoBrexit

Edited by PeaceMob

It was an awful speech, asking the sane to rally around an insane alt right coup. No thanks.

 

'Let me be clear'... as she then ISN'T, 'Brexit means Brexit'. Um does it?? Does it though???

So, The Speech.

 

My reactions:

 

First up a Tessa's greatest hits of her promises to be inclusive from 2016. Still waiting for those promised changes to stop offshore tax haven tax skippers and open-ness. What about the meetings with all those foreign newspaper billionaires and the quiet dropping of Part 2 of the inquest into their behaviour? Certainly doesn't help us poor folk...

 

5 Big Hits:

 

1. The referendum. Apparently there must have been some items on it that were missing from voting slip, because she's telling me what everyone voted for. ESP exists!

 

2. She promises the UK will honour its agreement with the EU. How reassuring, cos I thought we were negotiating for a laugh...

 

3. It must protect jobs and security. This is good news as long as decisions taken follow it through and it's not just empty words.

 

4. She basically is saying no racism please. It's a warning to the Farages of the world.

 

5. Nothing that is going to break up the UK is to be agreed. We should all love each other so everyone has to compromise, basically.

 

Mrs May thinks we are close to an agreement on the Interim period - though not that nasty clause about N.I. staying in the EU, more or less, if agreement fails. Not gonna happen.

 

The UK agreement can not accept free movement, so Norway is out. Canada doesnt give enough access to the EU, so that's out. WTO terms also means less access so that's out. Take note Rees-Mogg and Johnson and piss off. They would also bugger up the Good Friday Agreement, so piss off again Hard Brexiters. There will be no Hard Border. A Hard Border between N.I and the rest of the UK is also out.

 

Solution? The UK accepts and mirrors EU legislation on trade in order to create a "frictionless border" for the whole of the UK. Errr, trust me we are SPECIAL. We're British! Goods going to the EU can be taken on trust that we are doing the EU customs job fabulously. Alternatively we could both introduce some vague system that speeds things up. BTW we don't want any tariffs on UK goods, just the foreign goods coming into the UK before going to the EU. Trust us, you'll be able to tell.

 

We're going to mirror EU legislation on anything that affects trade. Disputes to be settled by a 3rd party. Me, I'll do it, I volunteer! This is a way of stuffing Jeremy Corbyn's plans on renationalising and subsidising. Oops!

 

"Dear EU you can't have it your own way with everything, you must cut us some slack, we need to work together for the interests of both of us". It's a sort of warning without any teeth given her earlier assurances. In order to sweeten it we promise to accept EU laws and co-operate on medicine, security and other areas.

 

We need EU workers. We just want to control who comes in. We expect the EU will still want some British workers and they can control who they let in. Everyones happy.

 

Cherry-picking. The EU has cherry-picked what deals it does with non-EU countries so you can bloody-well cherry-pick what we want. I know that level of access has never been agreed before but we are British!

 

Farming. We want to take the opportunity to stop subsidising it. We promise our animal standards etc will stay as high as the EU, trust us. Fishing. Stay out of our waters, unless you give us better access to yours. Oh and we want to sell our fish to you with no tariffs. And vice versa natch.

 

We want to allow free movement of British firms and EU firms, especially bankers. Bankers is a must. Oh yes indeedy we want all that banking cash. After all, it's in your interest that all those foreign banks stay in London. Honest. Truly. I'm not lying. We also want broadcasting free movement, so that my bessie Rupert doesn't get stiffed. If we don't get it he'll make my life a misery, trust me. It'll be great for both of us, trust me, cos as you know the UK has SO many many European broadcasters on freeview and Sky and we have so few in Europe. Trust me. It'll be fab for you.

 

We don't want free movement of non-bankers or Rupert's non-mates though so you can piss off about that.

 

And in conclusion, God Save The Queen, and the godlike brilliant UK. We absolutely love the EU, we just want to not belong anymore and have the same advantages but none of the disadvantages, give us a break sweetie.

 

I think that covers it. "You're welcome" for the translation.

To my mind she still didn't explain how the governments proposal of leaving the customs union can be achieved whilst maintaining no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This issue was kicked into touch in December with some warm vague words in order to move on with the negotiations, but we will have to face up to it at some point, I expect it has been dodged to keep harmony between the various pro and anti-EU ministers in cabinet. There's a lot of talk about 'technology' (such as a more sophisticated ANPR system) but to be honest that which is being developed is still in its infancy and therefore prone to abuse. Furthermore, the fact remains that for trade there is a 'soft' border between Norway and Sweden - however Norway is within EEA, Schengen and has agreements already in place and also quite crucially does not have conflict over that border that is 20 years in to a delicate peace process.
To my mind she still didn't explain how the governments proposal of leaving the customs union can be achieved whilst maintaining no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This issue was kicked into touch in December with some warm vague words in order to move on with the negotiations, but we will have to face up to it at some point, I expect it has been dodged to keep harmony between the various pro and anti-EU ministers in cabinet. There's a lot of talk about 'technology' (such as a more sophisticated ANPR system) but to be honest that which is being developed is still in its infancy and therefore prone to abuse. Furthermore, the fact remains that for trade there is a 'soft' border between Norway and Sweden - however Norway is within EEA, Schengen and has agreements already in place and also quite crucially does not have conflict over that border that is 20 years in to a delicate peace process.

We're not the best at implementing large government IT systems :lol:

 

The NO/SE model is interesting but there is still a customs declaration station that many shipments, that haven't been pre-cleared, are required to stop at. They also only allow freight to cross the border at 8 points. Staggering given how long the border actually is! It also seems to involve a lot of cross-border co-operation and information sharing - something the UK is completely allergic to based on our history of EU opt outs!!

 

 

Tories’ Brexit unity fades as Heseltine slams May’s speech

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/m...ine-theresa-may

 

[Who says I only read right-wing papers] :teresa:

 

well done!

 

pretty much summing up what I said in my "translation". She's still largely la-la-la-land-ing becaue she cant get over the basic problem that has dogged the Tories for 30 years: Split opinion between those that know it will harm the economy and those that don't care if it harms the economy.

 

Bear in mind Johnson's MP buddy has accused Gavin Headswell of releasing his loony letter about the Irish border, that growth this quarter has just been halved by the Deep Freeze, Trump is starting a world trade war (of words so far, for the most part, but he's doing his best to stop other countries exporting into the US - that means the UK too - because he's such a total thick twat trying to sway attention away from his treacherousness) which will totally f*** up UK chances of getting any significant deals without the EU on our side.

 

If we are totally on WTO terms, like virtually no other countries, we are totally f***ed. May has already ruled that out, so that means we do what the EU wants because any other course of action is suicide. Her only way out is to go back to the electorate because the Tories are split, Labour is split, and the UK is split, with whatever deal is agreed.

The figures for the Mail, Express etc rather undermine the whole survey.

 

How so?

 

It demonstrates their euroscepticism, which is hardly a secret here. :P

A historian's persepctive of the creation of the EU, forthcoming trade wars (May is threatening the USA with trade wars if Trump pushes on with tariffs, which makes an absolute mockery of Brexit if the world goes back to tariffs the UK is STUFFED! Big time.

 

Robert saunders:

"One of the stranger assumptions of the Brexit debate was that we live in an age of permanently low tariffs, guaranteed by a liberal world trading order. It’s indicative of a wider problem in UK politics: the near-total absence of historical & prudential considerations.

 

When Britain joined the EEC, in 1973, the world looked very different. A liberal trading order based on the Bretton Woods System had collapsed. The world seemed to be breaking up into hostile trading blocs, which, like OPEC, could use their power to devastating effect.

 

There was serious anxiety in government about food shortages: British shops ran out of sugar in 1974 and there were queues outside bakeries in London. Newspapers debated a return to the ration book. [3/12]

 

Europe seemed dangerously exposed to Russian power, with the United States retreating into introspection after the horrors of Vietnam and the internal convulsions over Watergate. Harold Wilson told the Cabinet in 1974 that “American leadership had gone”.

 

Joining the EEC was a response to all three. It bound Britain into a trade bloc that could stand its ground against the superpowers. It gave Britain preferential access to European food supplies & encouraged domestic production. It provided an economic foundation for NATO.

‏

By the 90s, when modern Euroscepticism was incubating, the world had changed. The collapse of the Soviet bloc, the lowering of tariff barriers & abundant food supplies weakened the case for membership as it had been made in the 1970s – and pro-Europeans failed to respond.

 

But what if those conditions returned? What if trade wars became the new norm? What if cheap food became harder to access, for political, economic or climatic reasons? What if a resurgent Russia threatened Europe's security? That world seems less alien now than 2 years ago.

 

History only really teaches one lesson: that the world we live in is contingent, not fixed; that things we take for granted in the present have been different in the past – and will be different again in the future.

‏

States have to balance the needs of the present against future contingencies. The armed forces maintain in times of peace weapons that would only be necessary in the most apocalyptic of wars. We are less good at building contingency into our political and economic thought.

 

This role used to be played by "conservatism", injecting the political system with a scepticism of precipitate change to institutions inherited from the past. Yet one of the strangest features of modern British politics is the “strange death of conservatism” on the Right.

 

The Conservative Party today is not in any meaningful sense “conservative”: its thinking is almost entirely ahistorical, grounded in a universalist creed of marketization that must be applied to all institutions, relationships and organs of civil society.

 

Ironically, that means it struggles to adapt to “change”, because a contingent world of liberal markets & global trading rules is assumed to be the universal state of humanity. These are not Thatcher’s children; they’re Francis Fukayama’s. We may all be poorer as a result."

 

Brexiteers fail to have any back-up plans for anything, world problems, Brexit itself, what happens if the worst happens, how we feed ourselves if we let agriculture wither and die faced with cheap imports which could dry up at any time in a world trade war. They failed to analyse Brexit and just made promises they cant keep and have yet to make a serious case with proof that the UK wont be worse off. We could be catastrophically worse off while they stick their heads in offshore tax la-la land.

 

How so?

 

It demonstrates their euroscepticism, which is hardly a secret here. :P

I was referring to the numbers who said those papers were pro-Remain. Clearly many respondents didn't have a clue and just guessed.

I was referring to the numbers who said those papers were pro-Remain. Clearly many respondents didn't have a clue and just guessed.

 

But surely that's no different from respondents who though The Guardian was pro-Brexit?

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