Again, left wing policies were EXTREMELY popular and got Corbyn more votes than Blair. Stop blaming the left for the entire British STATE attacking Corbyn maniacally and destroying him. Combine that with Brexshit and there you have 2019. It wasn't the left. I know you centrists would looove that to be the case, but the centre's dead. Look at the Lib Dems. The only way the centrists beat Bernie was by conniving- sound familiar? - and forcing Buttiege and Amy out the race and keeping Warren in. There were massive disparities between the exit polls and the "real" data later, too, always in favour of Biden. This is after the DNC defended its actions vs Bernie in 2016, sayong that primaries were not in the constitution, it could do what it wanted, and there was no need for there to even BE primaries, when the DNC is perfectly within its rights to just wheel out its candidate from the smoky boardrooms and say, here. Biden then struggled to beat Trump. Bernie, meanwhile, is the most popular poltiican in the US and was polling well ov3r 10% more than Trump and taking all swing states but Florida. The centrists screamed about thia, only to handily lose Florida themselves...

 

If the Labour centrists had got behind Corbyj in 2017, hadn't tried to dethrone him for Angela bloody Eagle, hadn't sabotaged the election then guess what? We would have Corbyn RIGHT NOW. We were 2k votes fron a progressive coalition 2k. They were close. Centrists ruined it. Thanks for brexshit and Blojo, centrists!

 

Any coalition in 2017 would have fallen apart though, I think we have different opinions of what the left is or at least that I am referring to. But you fail to address the clusterfuk of 2019, as by this point Momentum and their ilk had their grubby fingers everywhere that led to a completely bonkers mainfesto which missed the trick with the electorate. The problem Corbyn had, is many people like his polcies, but not the person. So no matter how good your policies are they are never going to get through to the elctorate. Yes, left wing economic policies are very popular I am not arguing that at all.

 

The problem I have Michael, is that anyone who immeditely is not pure left in their idelogy by hardcore Corbynities are immeditely branded Centrists and Blairites. So before you know it you have a lot of people who have a left leaning idelogy being slaughtered as a Centrist or a Tory. The Centrists are the swing voters and ultimately decide the election.

 

 

 

I think you show your clear bias in the way you describe Momentum in the point above. I also would say JC doesn’t have charisma but he is a nice person. Also the arguenent here is what is the centre? For you Roo it’s the establishment neoliberal economic system that secures the wealth in the hands of the few for me the neoliberal system has failed and monopolies have created the current corrupt and wealth hoarding system in the hands of too few people and therefore the centre is now to the left of where you think it is. The only way the right has of opposing this is by beginning culture wars and that’s what happened in 2019, things didn’t change THAT much in 2 years

I think you show your clear bias in the way you describe Momentum in the point above. I also would say JC doesn’t have charisma but he is a nice person. Also the arguenent here is what is the centre? For you Roo it’s the establishment neoliberal economic system that secures the wealth in the hands of the few for me the neoliberal system has failed and monopolies have created the current corrupt and wealth hoarding system in the hands of too few people and therefore the centre is now to the left of where you think it is. The only way the right has of opposing this is by beginning culture wars and that’s what happened in 2019, things didn’t change THAT much in 2 years

 

I'm not biased against them, I despise them :lol: How a non-affiliated group got so much power within Labour is an absolute travesty. Corbyn is a nice person, but he was not a politician. He lacked the ability to compromise and was far too stubborn. He also allowed way too many bad influences to get high positions with his back office who were more aligned to their own agendas rather than the Party's agenda.

 

Culture Wars is a part of 2019, but this is where Labour failed. We don't want a culture war, the Tories always solidify their support when this happens. The Centre means different things to different people, but my point mainly is to different people it means different things. But ultimately for Labour to get back in power they need to win some of the Centrists back, no matter the difference of opinion of what a Centrist is.

I think you show your clear bias in the way you describe Momentum in the point above. I also would say JC doesn’t have charisma but he is a nice person. Also the arguenent here is what is the centre? For you Roo it’s the establishment neoliberal economic system that secures the wealth in the hands of the few for me the neoliberal system has failed and monopolies have created the current corrupt and wealth hoarding system in the hands of too few people and therefore the centre is now to the left of where you think it is. The only way the right has of opposing this is by beginning culture wars and that’s what happened in 2019, things didn’t change THAT much in 2 years

 

Preach!!!!

I'm not biased against them, I despise them :lol: How a non-affiliated group got so much power within Labour is an absolute travesty. Corbyn is a nice person, but he was not a politician. He lacked the ability to compromise and was far too stubborn. He also allowed way too many bad influences to get high positions with his back office who were more aligned to their own agendas rather than the Party's agenda.

 

Culture Wars is a part of 2019, but this is where Labour failed. We don't want a culture war, the Tories always solidify their support when this happens. The Centre means different things to different people, but my point mainly is to different people it means different things. But ultimately for Labour to get back in power they need to win some of the Centrists back, no matter the difference of opinion of what a Centrist is.

 

The problem with JC is he isn’t a leader he left the control to other people in his team and hated confrontation to the point where nothing got done :lol: .

 

Why do you dispise Momentum they are a pressure group like many others in the party same as every political party. Maybe you should just admit you don’t believe in their views :lol: . Do you believe Progress should have been as powerful in the post 1997 era?

 

 

The problem with JC is he isn’t a leader he left the control to other people in his team and hated confrontation to the point where nothing got done :lol: .

 

Why do you dispise Momentum they are a pressure group like many others in the party same as every political party. Maybe you should just admit you don’t believe in their views :lol: . Do you believe Progress should have been as powerful in the post 1997 era?

 

I don't mind pressure groups, they are part of politics. What I don't like is non-affiliated pressure groups which run the Party. Neither are affiliated to Labour and were born out of it. The problem I have is (at least when it formed) a lot of the Leadership of Momentum are not Labour supporters, they just seized the opportunity to take control of the Party. The affiliates are more interested in pure ideology rather than focusing on the task at hand. Momentum got way too much power and pretty much ended up running the Labour Party and becoming anti-democractic. But that's ok, it's only Tories that don't allow free speech :lol:

I don't mind pressure groups, they are part of politics. What I don't like is non-affiliated pressure groups which run the Party. Neither are affiliated to Labour and were born out of it. The problem I have is (at least when it formed) a lot of the Leadership of Momentum are not Labour supporters, they just seized the opportunity to take control of the Party. The affiliates are more interested in pure ideology rather than focusing on the task at hand. Momentum got way too much power and pretty much ended up running the Labour Party and becoming anti-democractic. But that's ok, it's only Tories that don't allow free speech :lol:

 

None of this makes any sense.

None of this makes any sense.

 

Momentum are crap, Progress are crap. Pressure groups that have way too much influence are crap. Momentum is not interested in the Labour Party. Plenty of evidence out there that their leadership is anti-democratic, but that’s ok as only Tories can be anti-democratic!

Momentum are crap, Progress are crap. Pressure groups that have way too much influence are crap. Momentum is not interested in the Labour Party. Plenty of evidence out there that their leadership is anti-democratic, but that’s ok as only Tories can be anti-democratic!

 

And yet Momentum got Labour faaar closer to power than any centrist, got huge rallies, and helped to popularise Corbyn - pre media and state hysteria - and was made up of everyday people.

And yet Momentum got Labour faaar closer to power than any centrist, got huge rallies, and helped to popularise Corbyn - pre media and state hysteria - and was made up of everyday people.

 

They also inflicted the worst Labour performance since 1935. But let's forget about that because about 2,000 turned up to some rally in Islington.

 

Not quite sure I agree with Corbyn's popularised narrative, I'm fairly certain with the electorate he had consistently terrible approval ratings. Labour did well, but Corbyn was not popular.

But there’s pressure groups in all parties so I don’t get the annoyance with them in particular except that you don’t agree with their viewpoint. I also don’t know if there’s any actual evidence of their lack of democracy I would obviously argue that they brought a lot of different people from different marginal groups into the party and made them involved in politics which can only be a good thing. Labour had the biggest membership of any political party in Europe and the PLP just treated them with disdain because they threatened the real people who most of the PLP stand for or are lobbied by.

But there’s pressure groups in all parties so I don’t get the annoyance with them in particular except that you don’t agree with their viewpoint. I also don’t know if there’s any actual evidence of their lack of democracy I would obviously argue that they brought a lot of different people from different marginal groups into the party and made them involved in politics which can only be a good thing. Labour had the biggest membership of any political party in Europe and the PLP just treated them with disdain because they threatened the real people who most of the PLP stand for or are lobbied by.

 

They were a newly formed pressure group made up of people who had never voted Labour and less than a couple of years later they were pretty much running the party! That is dangerous and not something I agree with. Also with the anto-democracy stuff, just check what they instructed their members to do for the Leadership contest - it was RLB or no-one. Fair enough if you have a preferred candidate, but give people the choice to vote and don't say it's this or nothing. I can't agree with that either.

Momentum have some brilliant people behind them and some great ideas about how to change the world- but I'm uncomfortable with the way that they operate. A good democratic movement should be about building consensus and not just shutting down the voices of those whose opinions you disagree with.

 

Sorry if there are any Momentum members here who disagree but that's how I feel, and why I never joined despite sharing a lot of their values and ideas.

They were a newly formed pressure group made up of people who had never voted Labour and less than a couple of years later they were pretty much running the party! That is dangerous and not something I agree with. Also with the anto-democracy stuff, just check what they instructed their members to do for the Leadership contest - it was RLB or no-one. Fair enough if you have a preferred candidate, but give people the choice to vote and don't say it's this or nothing. I can't agree with that either.

 

So you think that bringing people into political debate is dangerous? It’s like all groups there loads of opinions, in NI the civil rights campaign in the 60s had people from all backgrounds and none including former IRA men and communists, doesn’t mean they aren’t allowed a say in discourse.

Momentum have some brilliant people behind them and some great ideas about how to change the world- but I'm uncomfortable with the way that they operate. A good democratic movement should be about building consensus and not just shutting down the voices of those whose opinions you disagree with.

 

Sorry if there are any Momentum members here who disagree but that's how I feel, and why I never joined despite sharing a lot of their values and ideas.

 

Similar issues to me, but I do think that can be fixed and reformed rather than Momentum ceasing to exist anymore — like some suggest.

 

I have only ever had positive experiences with Momentum when canvassing in 2017 and 2019 but that was mostly due to being with likeminded volunteers who were passionate and wanted to help out.

Edited April 19, 20214 yr by blacksquare

They also inflicted the worst Labour performance since 1935. But let's forget about that because about 2,000 turned up to some rally in Islington.

 

Not quite sure I agree with Corbyn's popularised narrative, I'm fairly certain with the electorate he had consistently terrible approval ratings. Labour did well, but Corbyn was not popular.

 

And yet they did so with FAR HIGHER number of voters. This defeat was caused by the MASS HYSTERIA propaganda from the ENTIRE British state, including the BBTory. What happened is that the mass propaganda over two years cut through, plus Tory Brexshit. They still gor more votes than Blair in his 2nd or 3rd term lol. Even Blair would have been destroyed by those conditions.

So again when Labour did well under JC it was the party when they did anything wrong it was all on the party leader....🤔 seems to be a narrative developing here.

So again when Labour did well under JC it was the party when they did anything wrong it was all on the party leader....🤔 seems to be a narrative developing here.

 

A very right-wing centrist narrative. Remember Rooney, you never liked Corbyn. You supported weak and wobbly authoritarian-wannabe May over him!! It is only natural that you would blame him and the left for things we could not control.

A very right-wing centrist narrative. Remember Rooney, you never liked Corbyn. You supported weak and wobbly authoritarian-wannabe May over him!! It is only natural that you would blame him and the left for things we could not control.

 

You're right I didn't like Corbyn, I lost a lost of respect for him during the 2016 EU Referendum when he sat on his fat arse and did not get behind his Party and commit for Remain, which is what the Labour Party stands for. He allowed himself to be manipulated by other people who only served to seek their own agendas and for all of the crap that he is a staunch socialist, he was still part of the "jobs for the boys" and nepotism. I don't like how he was painted to be the Messiah by Momentum, when he was far from it. But look- that is a whole different debate.

 

The fact is he delivered a great campaign in 2017. I don't think anyone is denying that. The problem is he got rid of most of the people who delivered his great campaign and allowed himself to be influenced by other people. Didn't UKIP get 4 million votes in 2015 or something like that, what did that achieve them in our current system? Feck all. The defeat in 2019 was awful and was not due to "BBTory" or anything. It was because Corbyn walked in a trap that he was not prepared for and he was disliked by the electorate.

 

He stood as a remainer in the referendum even though he has suspicions of the Eu and has his whole career. Do you know that Labour HQ and the people who run the party did exactly the same throughout his whole time as leader. They barely lifted a finger during the election campaigns and put their effort into safe seats only. They also said some of the most awful things to Him and any of his supporters from the very first PLP meeting in Sept 2015!