He is fully down the right wing rabbit holes. The right wing is funded by Eussia. He is brainwashed.

The war handed large parts of Ukraine to Russia hence why it should have been avoided. But of course the geniuses took away Ukraine’s nukes, then installed an anti-Russian leader and then started talking about Ukraine joining NATO provoking a conflict that they thought would see the end of Putin instead it’s another pointless war with bad ramifications like the previous 5.

This is a horrendously inaccurate reading of post Cold War history of Ukraine.

 

Nobody 'took away' their nuclear weapons in the manner you suggest. Ukraine realised they were incapable of maintaining them and so in a deal to guarantee their independence via an agreement of non-aggression and protection they traded them for 2.5 Billion in debt written off plus a guarantee of fuel for their reactors.

 

Yanukovych was deposed by the Ukrainian uprising. Poroshenko won the first election and stated that Ukraine joining NATO didn't have enough support to make pressing the issue worthwhile. Although tolerated by the West he was certainly not their ideal choice due to the high levels of corruption and perceived lack of connection with the Ukrainian people. It is true that he and Putin hated each other but he wasn't hugely popular in the West either.

This ultimately led to his defeat by Zelenskyy, who was nobody's first choice and looked to be more keen to develop a relationship with Putin than Poroshenko was. Putin had the chance then to resolve the situation favourably to himself but thought he could take advantage of a supposedly weak leader and a disunited Europe and NATO.

 

The Ukraine-NATO Action Plan was first declared in 2002 and the first steps towards membership were taken in 2005. At this point NATO was still saying 'no, you can't join'. NATO maintained this stance even after the 2014 invasion of Ukraine and only started to discuss it seriously AFTER 2022 full-scale invasion.

 

 

Yes, ending the war is what everybody wants but Ukraine and the Baltic states in particular will not be safe from Russia, no matter what the deal is, as long as Putin still draws breath.

Edited February 17Feb 17 by Severin

Ending the conflict is a good thing. The war handed large parts of Ukraine to Russia hence why it should have been avoided. But of course the geniuses took away Ukraine’s nukes, then installed an anti-Russian leader and then started talking about Ukraine joining NATO provoking a conflict that they thought would see the end of Putin instead it’s another pointless war with bad ramifications like the previous 5.

 

Ukraine doesn’t have to accept any bad deal, hopefully it’s a good deal. If it is then it’s important insecure European leaders don’t ruin it by trying to save face because UK troops in Ukraine isn’t much difference to Ukraine joining NATO. The opposite of peacekeeping. It’s war provoking.

 

What is wrong with you that you find any reason you can to be pro Trump and essentially by extension also Putin???

What is wrong with you that you find any reason you can to be pro Trump and essentially by extension also Putin???

 

He watches a lot of right wing twitter :lol:

You want to know what this is really about? Trump essentially cut through the bluster. European leaders have never felt more irrelevant. This is about saving face and keeping up the pretence of strength. Except putting British soldiers lives at risk to do so is not in anyone’s interest. Macron and Starmer can’t control their own borders but now they’re going to patrol Ukraine’s? What will Britain do if Russia shells an area and kills British troops? What exactly? Look at what Tony Blair did to British troops. Starmer trying to do the same. The UK has no business being in Ukraine. Russia is not bothered by the UK the only deterrent would be US troops and that won’t be happening. End the war. Strengthen Ukraine to where it wouldn’t be in Russia’s interest to ever get into a gruelling war again and move on. Putting UK troops on the ground would be the worse decision possible.

 

 

Ending the conflict is a good thing. The war handed large parts of Ukraine to Russia hence why it should have been avoided. But of course the geniuses took away Ukraine’s nukes, then installed an anti-Russian leader and then started talking about Ukraine joining NATO provoking a conflict that they thought would see the end of Putin instead it’s another pointless war with bad ramifications like the previous 5.

 

Ukraine doesn’t have to accept any bad deal, hopefully it’s a good deal. If it is then it’s important insecure European leaders don’t ruin it by trying to save face because UK troops in Ukraine isn’t much difference to Ukraine joining NATO. The opposite of peacekeeping. It’s war provoking.

 

Suede, Rooney and Severin have already made excellent points (particularly that detailed history of Ukraine and the lead up to the conflict that rebuffs the ridiculous reading of the conflict in the second post), but these posts betray such a misunderstanding of how geopolitics works, by the way they treat the collective will of European states as nothing more than a sideshow as opposed to a major player alongside Ukraine, Russia and the US and clearly the only pro-Ukraine force outside of Ukraine itself.

 

Ukraine and Europe are under no obligation to recognise the outcome of talks that are made without their involvement; Europe represents actually more of the spending on Ukraine than the US does alone. Now hopefully America finds a bilateral US-Russia agreement unworkable for this reason and gives sufficient guarantees to Ukraine, and pressure from Europe will be part of why that happens if they do so. If America doesn't provide them, then maybe the UK and Europe will have to fill in. That's our business as one of Ukraine's closest allies and in our interest in further stopping Russian expansionism.

 

Trump's style is not unique or clever, all it's achieved is giving Russia an enormous upper hand. That may be unconcerning to an isolationist America (in the short term, in the long term it will hurt) but it's vital for Europe/Ukraine that that doesn't happen. It's in Europe's interests to protect Ukraine, so they will do so if necessary. Ending the war is no good if Russia can restart it again when they choose.

 

It's frustrating really because this unfortunate situation is entirely of the Trump administration's making, peace is maintained when democracies stand together against an outside threat, but America has essentially betrayed the liberal democratic order for selfish reasons and made the future of European security more precarious than it would otherwise be. Don't pretend that it's for peace, because the anarchic order (the antithesis of the liberal democratic order) is not a peaceful one.

Has anybody read the proposed ceasefire details in The Telegraph? Tells you all you need to know about this current US administration. As if anybody would sign that deal :lol: No doubt took tips from Putin on that one.

It's absolutely shocking!!! :lol: He really is just a Manchurian candidate. My god!!! No wonder the European leaders have organised an emergency summit. ATROCIOUS! Naturally, Liam Sota will be ALL over this major surrender.

It's absolutely shocking!!! :lol: He really is just a Manchurian candidate. My god!!! No wonder the European leaders have organised an emergency summit. ATROCIOUS! Naturally, Liam Sota will be ALL over this major surrender.

 

Will have to see what comes out of the talks tomorrow. Trump trying to fleece Ukraine for rare minerals is in bad taste but that’s the position Ukraine have been put in by EU leaders who are only brainstorming ideas now when this has been dragging on for years.

Edited February 18Feb 18 by Liam sota

If there's one thing we know for certain, it's that laws and agreements and telling the truth are concepts totally alien to the lying Abbott & Costello of global politics. You can't believe a word that comes out of their mouth and they have been mutually supporting each other for over decade. Trump was visiting Russia on invitation way before he was a TV reality star and shit cameo in Christmas movies and head of numerous bankrupt corrupt businesses.

 

When people show you who they are, you believe that's what they are and only a moron would think otherwise, except for those making conscious decisions who are supporting the aims of the Dynamic Duo to end democracy. The only difference is one already has total control by murdering and the other one is in the process of converting the nation to that point. We will see in 2 years how successful that has been to that aim. If you think this is hyperbole, you really are naiive.

One positive is that Russians have indicated they don't have too much opposition to Ukraine joining the EU, which is interesting as it'd be hard to wage a future war against them as a member of that bloc. But then the accession process would take years and without government changes in Hungary and Slovakia, unlikely.

 

But that's about the only positive and it's not even much of one.

 

Seems as though Russia-US are close to reaching an agreement and 'concessions will be made by all sides', though doesn't sound like Russia are making many. Utterly despicable quisling betrayal of Ukraine going on right now.

One positive is that Russians have indicated they don't have too much opposition to Ukraine joining the EU, which is interesting as it'd be hard to wage a future war against them as a member of that bloc. But then the accession process would take years and without government changes in Hungary and Slovakia, unlikely.

 

But that's about the only positive and it's not even much of one.

 

Seems as though Russia-US are close to reaching an agreement and 'concessions will be made by all sides', though doesn't sound like Russia are making many. Utterly despicable quisling betrayal of Ukraine going on right now.

 

The US play with Russia here is a strange one. I think the idea both administrations have is to weaken Europe and have influence elections to have puppets in play - works for both the longer term US and Russian strategic visions.

 

I can imagine the agreement will be terrible, then the blame will be placed on Europe. Seems highly likely.

Will have to see what comes out of the talks tomorrow. Trump trying to fleece Ukraine for rare minerals is in bad taste but that’s the position Ukraine have been put in by EU leaders who are only brainstorming ideas now when this has been dragging on for years.

 

The blame lies with Trump and the far right fash ... And Putin. Now we see why Putin was "forced" into attacking in 2022: he had it all planned out with Trump. He would attack Ukraine, then Moldova, then the Baltic's, and Trump would have Greenland.

The blame lies with Trump and the far right fash ... And Putin. Now we see why Putin was "forced" into attacking in 2022: he had it all planned out with Trump. He would attack Ukraine, then Moldova, then the Baltic's, and Trump would have Greenland.

 

Russia have taken years and lost thousands of people to get a small part of Ukraine this idea they’re just going to blitz through Europe is fiction. They couldn’t even protect Assad anymore due to the Ukraine conflict. Ukraine joining NATO was always going to cause a big problem. Hundreds of thousands of lives later these EU robots still can’t let it go. If they weren’t prepared for war then why provoke it? What did they think would happen? Trump has been forecasted to win for 18 months and has spoken of ending the war non stop. Why are they only now responding to it? These are incredibly lazy and useless politicians. Nobody ever tried to make a deal with Russia because they didn’t want to take NATO off the table. So what were they hoping would happen? Ukraine would miraculously win? What was the end goal? The war was a ridiculous waste of life.

Russia have taken years and lost thousands of people to get a small part of Ukraine this idea they’re just going to blitz through Europe is fiction. They couldn’t even protect Assad anymore due to the Ukraine conflict. Ukraine joining NATO was always going to cause a big problem. Hundreds of thousands of lives later these EU robots still can’t let it go. If they weren’t prepared for war then why provoke it? What did they think would happen? Trump has been forecasted to win for 18 months and has spoken of ending the war non stop. Why are they only now responding to it? These are incredibly lazy and useless politicians. Nobody ever tried to make a deal with Russia because they didn’t want to take NATO off the table. So what were they hoping would happen? Ukraine would miraculously win? What was the end goal? The war was a ridiculous waste of life.

 

Sure. They have tactical nukes and use a vile heatwave policy. They outproduce the EU on armaments , and if you remove NATO from the Baltic's, as Trump wants, then you have a huge country Vs very small ones. Also, this war exposed Russian capabilities. It's quite obvious the plan WAS that, which is what hey were so desperate for Trump to win Vs Biden, even if their material strength actually wasn't as good as they thought. But they are still formidable.

Russia have taken years and lost thousands of people to get a small part of Ukraine this idea they’re just going to blitz through Europe is fiction. They couldn’t even protect Assad anymore due to the Ukraine conflict. Ukraine joining NATO was always going to cause a big problem. Hundreds of thousands of lives later these EU robots still can’t let it go. If they weren’t prepared for war then why provoke it? What did they think would happen? Trump has been forecasted to win for 18 months and has spoken of ending the war non stop. Why are they only now responding to it? These are incredibly lazy and useless politicians. Nobody ever tried to make a deal with Russia because they didn’t want to take NATO off the table. So what were they hoping would happen? Ukraine would miraculously win? What was the end goal? The war was a ridiculous waste of life.

 

Oh I don’t know, maybe Russia could not have invaded Ukraine? All war is a waste of life. If the U.K. got invaded by a hostile enemy state would you be like “oh that’s fine lads, just take what you want, nobody needs to die here”. Of course you wouldn’t. You cannot expect Ukraine to be the same.

 

This idea that Ukraine provoked Russia is completely absurd. Russia is a hostile state, appeasing them is not the answer. Do you honestly think Russia will not move again in the future? Honestly, never heard so much absolute shite. Next you’re gonna be telling us the Earth is flat cos Dr Green on Twitter said so.

Before 2022 Ukraine joining the EU or NATO was nothing more than a fantasy. NATO don’t allow states in conflict to join and Russia invaded Ukraine the first time in 2014 thus ensuring for as long as that conflict remained on ice, nato would never happen for Ukraine.

 

And even now, putin can call his puppets up in Hungary and they’ll just veto it. This entire „argument“ is defeated by basic logical reasoning

Oh I don’t know, maybe Russia could not have invaded Ukraine? All war is a waste of life. If the U.K. got invaded by a hostile enemy state would you be like “oh that’s fine lads, just take what you want, nobody needs to die here”. Of course you wouldn’t. You cannot expect Ukraine to be the same.

 

This idea that Ukraine provoked Russia is completely absurd. Russia is a hostile state, appeasing them is not the answer. Do you honestly think Russia will not move again in the future? Honestly, never heard so much absolute shite. Next you’re gonna be telling us the Earth is flat cos Dr Green on Twitter said so.

 

 

Totally agree.

 

My earlier comments about having preconceived opinions and people trying to change facts to support that worldview apply here when anybody tries to blame this on the EU. Nobody forced Putin to invade Ukraine in 2014, he chose to do it, and when the EU and USA did f*** all, that was the just the go-ahead he needed to go ahead and grab another huge chunk of Ukraine. Presumably someone who believes that first "do nothing" was the right thing to do will also believe that "do nothing" will apply until Putin really feels secure by playing Risk. I mean, when could that fantasy ever happen!!? It's never happened before!! Never ever! Not in 1939, not in 1914, and not once in the whole history of humanity.

 

Oh hang on, that's right, tyrants invade all the f***ing time, always have always will, and if you dont want to live under a tyrant you have to stand up to them. Note to Americans, Trump just issued a declaration that only HE and HE ALONE has the right to make laws. If that isn't proof that democracy is about to end in the USA you really are a moron and deserve everything you have coming to you. Those who would rather they have a say in their future are really going to have to do more than moan on social media and wave some flags on a nice walk for a couple of hours. The judges currently the only ones trying to hold back on the deluge of attacks and respect the Constitution are going to be targeted next in the forthcoming coup. Don't believe me? Believe Trump:

 

"in four years, you don't have to vote again. We'll have it fixed so good, you're not gonna have to vote."

 

 

Oh I don’t know, maybe Russia could not have invaded Ukraine? All war is a waste of life. If the U.K. got invaded by a hostile enemy state would you be like “oh that’s fine lads, just take what you want, nobody needs to die here”. Of course you wouldn’t. You cannot expect Ukraine to be the same.

 

This idea that Ukraine provoked Russia is completely absurd. Russia is a hostile state, appeasing them is not the answer. Do you honestly think Russia will not move again in the future? Honestly, never heard so much absolute shite. Next you’re gonna be telling us the Earth is flat cos Dr Green on Twitter said so.

 

It’s all just the same rhetoric over and over. Answer me this. What is your solution? If it’s not about NATO like Silas claims then why won’t the EU take NATO off the table?

 

If NATO is the excuse well take the excuse away? Then suddenly it changes to Ukraine should be able to do what it wants.

 

Nobody has a solution because it’s just stubbornness over lives and diversions from solutions. We know world leaders aren’t consistent or honest in their rhetoric we’ve seen that with their different takes on Israel. We know foreign interference in elections is no stranger to the US because they’ve done it forever. Hell Zelenskyy is probably in charge thanks to the US.

 

Appeasement is a silly term in this context. You have a situation where a prolonged war just financially bleeds the western world, loses hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian lives and land….so what is your solution? As per nobody has one they just wait around and care more about their appearance and repeating the same rhetoric ad nauseam.

 

News flash the UK cannot afford to give pensioners heating in the winter it cannot pay for Ukraine’s war, US citizens are tired of it too. It cannot drag on forever.

 

So you need to talk or make a deal or understand the other sides perspective. It’s funny how the UK made a deal with the IRA a terrorist group which I’m sure you agree with right? The Good Friday agreement but talking to Russia is a no no. Why wasn’t that appeasement?

 

The EU clearly isn’t going to fully go to war with Russia so stop wasting lives and money and time and reach deals and move on. It’s obvious Russia feels threatened and being stubborn has got nobody anywhere.

Edited February 19Feb 19 by Liam sota

Oh well, we wouldn't want US citizens to be tired of Ukraine being at war! /s

The deal with the IRA didn't involve the UK giving up any territory. The two issues are not comparable.