I found this to be an incredibly interesting thread on what the UK is doing wrong and why we are sealing last place before the entries are even made public.

 

@1396160993504415744

 

 

Whoever is selecting our entires needs replaced by someone who has actually heard a European radio station this side of the millennium

If the UK wants to do well, then we definitely can. We have many acts and famous songwriters that are famous all around Europe and many British-centric styles that would stand out for miles (Grime, Drill, hell even Scottish traditional folk). It's still very popular here and gets big ratings for pretty minimal effort so it's not like we're gonna pull out any time soon. It just depends on if we are actually willing to take this seriously and understand what songs do well in this contest. We literally have this same discussion every year and nothing changes so I don't think it will again, so I assume the BBC are just happy to just stick to their strategy and keep their cash cow.

 

And I'm personally fine with that, I always look forward to other actually inspired countries rather than us and I'm just numb to the embarrassment now, but please stop making excuses about politics. If it isn't clear by now why it is our songs don't do well, I ask why every year we all say 'OK probably won't win BUT it's not too bad'

If the UK wants to do well, then we definitely can. We have many acts and famous songwriters that are famous all around Europe and many British-centric styles that would stand out for miles (Grime, Drill, hell even Scottish traditional folk). It's still very popular here and gets big ratings for pretty minimal effort so it's not like we're gonna pull out any time soon. It just depends on if we are actually willing to take this seriously and understand what songs do well in this contest. We literally have this same discussion every year and nothing changes so I don't think it will again, so I assume the BBC are just happy to just stick to their strategy and keep their cash cow.

 

And I'm personally fine with that, I always look forward to other actually inspired countries rather than us and I'm just numb to the embarrassment now, but please stop making excuses about politics. If it isn't clear by now why it is our songs don't do well, I ask why every year we all say 'OK probably won't win BUT it's not too bad'

 

Agreed. Exactly what benefit would it be for the UK to win? Zero, apart from the host city, and the BBC would have to foot the enormous bill. It's of no co-incidence that entries got big-time sh*te following the last time they had to pay for it!

Either Europe is racist or it's not. You cannot have it both ways when it suits you.

 

I don't think this is even a question, ofcourse Europe is racist. And I think a very good point was raised, my friend immediately texted the same thing after the results.

 

I also really don't see your argument with 'these and these acts' were successful, that's the same kind of argument when someone says 'I can't be racist because I have a black friend'. Just because Eurovision has seen some successful black and/or people of colour doesn't mean Eurovision and it's viewers don't have a problem with race and racism. I mean, with an act like Jeangu not getting ANY votes (while getting a lot of racist abuse at the same time), surely that must have played a role? Especially for black artists, Loreen winning doesn't change that, Loreen is not even black to start with. So I think it's good to be a bit more careful with making these statement, it's a very sensitive topic we are talking about. (I don't mean this as 'an attack' or anything, just my observations and something I have heard/ seen other people say as well).

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by Chemistry

I don't think this is even a question, ofcourse Europe is racist. And I think a very good point was raised, my friend immediately texted the same thing after the results.

 

I also really don't see your argument with 'these and these acts' were successful, that's the same kind of argument when someone says 'I can't be racist because I have a black friend'. Just because Eurovision has seen some successful black and/or people of colour doesn't mean Eurovision and it's viewers don't have a problem with race and racism. I mean, with an act like Jeangu not getting ANY votes (while getting a lot of racist abuse), surely that must have played a role? Especially for black artists, Loreen winning doesn't change that, Loreen is not even black to start with. So I think it's good to be a bit more careful with making these statement, it's a very sensitive topic we are talking about.

 

Racism covers people from multiple ethnic / mixed backgrounds, not just black, hence Loreen was included. I didn't mention the word 'black' - you did.

It's not defensive, it's stepping back and looking at the facts in detail, not jumping to a conclusion and providing a different perspective. Not everyone who disagrees will be doing it because they are defensive.

 

The argument can apply for all minority acts performing in Eurovision.

 

DQ for Denmark failing to get past the semi and Sestre doing relatively poorly would suggest a potential problem with trans-performers but Dana International / Conchita winning outright proves otherwise.

Vagisil (or whoever from North Macedonia this year) and the bloke with a long pony-tail failing to get out of the semis would suggest a issue with homosexuality but openly Bi / Gay Duncan Lawrence and the Serbian Lez winning suggests not.

 

If you allow yourself to hastily overanalyse without taking a step back, it will often lead to the wrong conclusion and may influence others in their opinion - which is a little dangerous when the wrong conclusion is given.

 

That's all.

I really disagree that the same argument can be applied to all minorities. Casual viewers won’t even know the details about the person and skin colour is something they will notice immediately and might judge the performer based on that. Obviously I hope not a lot of racists are watching the show and voting but it’s naive to assume Eastern European (for example - since their population is overwhelmingly white) countries are all racism-free and songs from POC won’t be affected by that.

 

Just look at the horrible ‘broccoli’ thing that happened earlier this year. There are soooo many Russian viewers who actively hate Manizha because she wasn’t born in Russia. Knowing the mindset for Eastern Europe I’m sure there will be quite a few voters thinking ‘he’s black why is he representing Czechia?’ (I heard a similar question asked both in person and online) as sad as that sounds. I want to take a deeper look at the votes breakdown, maybe there’s indeed a pattern here or something.

 

For a POC to do really well, they seem to need to pull out ALL the stops and have the best song and no close competition and it sounds exhausting. Also as much as we want Eurovision to be this tiny little haven, a safe space where everyone is equal and happy, it’s not. Outside world directly affects our little bubble whether we like it or not and while racism is present in today’s society (and it objectively is), I think it’s unlikely we’ll get rid of it in Eurovision any time soon.

 

Obviously as a white person I can’t assume or state what is or isn’t racist so take all of it with a pinch of salt and I’ll leave it to actual POC to decide and make judgements. These are just the ramblings about things I will never experience so feel free to correct me or add anything.

Racism covers people from multiple ethnic / mixed backgrounds, not just black, hence Loreen was included. I didn't mention the word 'black' - you did.

 

BiminiBonBoulex specifically named three black artists, to which you replied it wasn't the case because, amongst other things, Loreen won. Obviously all people of colour face racism, that is not even a question. But you cannot deny black people/ people with a darker skin recieve a specific kind of racism. That was the point I wanted to make. You cannot just put all black/ people of colour in one box and think they all face the same problems (hence why a term like BAME is so problematic).

 

And I am saying this as a white person, so obviously not my own experiences, so like Bdelita said, feel free to correct me.

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by Chemistry

BiminiBonBoulex specifically named three black artists, to which you replied it wasn't the case because, amongst other things, Loreen won. Obviously all people of colour face racism, that is not even a question. But you cannot deny black people/ people with a darker skin recieve a specific kind of racism. That was the point I wanted to make. You cannot just put all black/ people of colour in one box and think they all face the same problems (hence why a term like BAME is so problematic).

 

And I am saying this as a white person, so obviously not my own experiences, so like Bdelita said, feel free to correct me.

 

The post mentioned 'racism' to which I responded with examples, including Loreen. You're trying to insinuate that I was responding to the fact they were black and not the word 'racism'. To make it clear, I was responding to the issue of racism, which covers people from multiple backgrounds.

It is undeniably suspect some of the voting patterns. Malta and San Marino in particular were absolute televote fodder and Europe should have gone wild. Especially some of the more pop forward nations that go for hi nrj bops. Look at where San Marinos 12 came from. They should have had a similar televote score yet didnt. Suspect.

 

Czechia can be explained away by the locals by a horrific vocal and NL by a just forgettable track (I didn’t pick up on the BLM message while it was on 🤦🏼‍♂️ And I certainly have no memory of it 24hrs later) however while there was additional circumstances at play, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t also racism impacting the votes. Look at Moldova. Worst vocal of the Night. Did solidly. Pretty white blonde girl.

 

Europe is a racist continent, it’s a Continent thats wealth and power is built upon the blood sweat and bodies of the global south. Europeans literally sold fellow humans they decided were worth less than them. Structurally, europe is built on racism and white supremacy. Like America. Like Australia. To try to deny this is to bury your head in the sand. I’m not saying anyone here is racist, but You have to be either naive or wilfully ignorant to deny that Europe isn’t a racist place. There’s plenty of examples from literally every country on the continent that proves this.

I actually had no idea Loreen wasn't white lol

 

I'm sorry to make the UK The Protagonist™ again but even those saying that Britain's track didn't deserve 0 points won't go as far as saying that it was in the top 10 tracks, which is what you need an entire nation's televote or jury to agree on in order to get off 0. I think there's a wilful lack of understanding of how the voting system works.

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by Harve

Destiny seems to attract an awful lot of OTT criticism online for her supposed "arrogance", which I don't see at all

Been lookin at all the breakdown of votes and juries etc. we were absolutely nowhere. Other than Malta public putting us 14th we were always in the 20’s, even Ireland, and the majority of the time we were bottom 3(the majority last).

 

Juries were nowhere either. We were 11th with polish jury but that was it

Having listened to some of it, Ukraine's wntry was ROBBED. It is an absolute delight. I can see why the Italian rock song won, but Ukraine should have at the very LEAST come secon. Wow!! THAT is how you do it.

Nil points for the UK so wasn't deserved considering some of the utter horrors we've sent in the past which escaped that fate (2019 actually being a good example), however by the same token I can see how in a strong field it probably didn't stand out enough for anyone to give us a second thought when it came to voting.

Having listened to some of it, Ukraine's wntry was ROBBED. It is an absolute delight. I can see why the Italian rock song won, but Ukraine should have at the very LEAST come secon. Wow!! THAT is how you do it.

For what it’s worth Ukraine finished 2nd in the televote and the juries tanked it like they always do x

The fact that I discovered the Ukraine entry by just clicking into a random spot on the semi 1 full video on YouTube and it became my favourite thing in life for several days.

 

Things happen for a reason.

 

(I did feel like it was performed/sung better in the semi than the final. I still loved it but she sounded a bit breathy or something, and didn't hold her final pose at the end as nicely as in the semi due to what seemed like tiredness)

Edited May 23, 20214 yr by Moomin Troll