The Croatia game was a strange one. They were a better team but we just accepted defeat. We saw the same yesterday too-my main issue with Southgate is his inability to change things when they’re clearly not working. This is a pattern, he’s not willing to make a bold choice early, instead he will wait for it to happen instead of being proactive. Yesterday was another classic example of this.

 

The team is unbalanced without the lack of a left footer or someone to stretch the play. It’s something I was worried about pre-tournament and it’s been evident in every game so far. The attack, is also unbalanced and it’s causing us issues. Not sure Kane or Bellingham are at full fitness too which while not Southgate’s fault, flogging them for 90 minutes continually is his fault! A lot of our issues occur from our build up- we can’t build play to create chance, and a huge part of that is our left side.

 

Problem is Re fitness if Kane and Bells theres no way you could drop them. It would be like taking of Lineker in Euro 92. They are your best players so have to start.

 

Think the biggest thing is Shaw being missed given hes a left footer and would probably make Foden being there perhaps more balanced as Trippier as good a player as he is always comes inside as hes right footed.

Problem is Re fitness if Kane and Bells theres no way you could drop them. It would be like taking of Lineker in Euro 92. They are your best players so have to start.

 

Think the biggest thing is Shaw being missed given hes a left footer and would probably make Foden being there perhaps more balanced as Trippier as good a player as he is always comes inside as hes right footed.

 

You could drop them if they’re not performing though. That’s the sign of a weak manager, Kane I do kind of understand bad he is the captain and this current team lacks leadership through inexperience currently. But it also points to the manager not trusting his squad. Of course you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t, but I don’t think anyone is sat here saying Bellingham deserves to start on current form.

 

And that’s the nail on the head! You need balance on the left hand side, which we don’t currently have. We’re easy to defend against as defenders know we can’t build through the left. That’s why there’s momentum to drop Foden and play Gordon. Just some baffling choices as Foden hasn’t trained with the team for half the week, was hardly in great form and he still starts! Just points to Southgate not really knowing what the problem is but hoping it works out.

Yeh but the problem is Bellingham scored a screamer in the last minute to keep England alive :lol:

 

The Guardian is full of great articles on days like this who can articulate things alot better than me:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/articl...areth-southgate

 

I keep seeing that video on twitter of the two england fans walking out of the stadium swearing about Southgate before full time yesterday and think its Roo and Liam :P

Yeh but the problem is Bellingham scored a screamer in the last minute to keep England alive :lol:

 

The Guardian is full of great articles on days like this who can articulate things alot better than me:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/articl...areth-southgate

 

I keep seeing that video on twitter of the two england fans walking out of the stadium swearing about Southgate before full time yesterday and think its Roo and Liam :P

 

Yeah he did score a screamer, but that was luck rather than a tactical master plan of Southgate.

 

Thing is both Jonny Liew and Barney Ronay, while great writers, they’re both devils advocates. I can guarantee you that article Jonny Liew wrote was entirely different before Bellingham scored. I listen to the Football Weekly podcast they’re both on (which is superb is anyone wants to pick up a football podcast). Barney has always been a Southgate fanboy and Jonny will 100% have had a different draft that he tore up to write that article.

 

Deffo wouldn’t be me walking out! Don’t think I’ve ever left a football game early since I was about 15!

I was only joking like lol.

 

Yeh they are great writers and I do enjoy Football Weekly as well.

 

One of the other articles on the website today even admits to changing their draft of the article :lol:

 

The thing about the screamer its not all tactics, sometimes its about decisions and he chose to keep Jude on and chose to bring Toney on who caused more chaos in the box so its swings and roundabouts with these things.

Edited July 1, 2024Jul 1 by Steve201

I was just talking to someone and maybe Southgate can be forced into a 3-5-2 for the next game. Trippier is injured and Shaw isn’t fit enough to start. Guehi is suspended. Switzerland play 3-5-2 so to match up against them

 

Pickford

 

Walker stones konsa

Trent saka either side

 

Rice mainoo

 

Bellingham

 

Palmer Gordon either side

Kane

 

Obviously changing the system gives him an excuse to bring in Trent and palmer without upsetting walker or saka which he seems scared to do but he would need to drop foden which is maybe asking too much of Southgate

 

Bellingham in a spot of trouble after post-match celebrations;

 

@1807782149510303883

You gotta compare Southgate to Moyes or a manager of a lower prem team who simply isn’t good enough for a top job. Southgate is happy to be defensively set up and play on the break or with players that are tough to beat. Give him quality he doesn’t know what to do. Could Moyes get Man City playing like Pep does? Of course not, it’s not his forte, it’s above his station. He likes a certain style with a certain set of players it brought him some success but you saw at Man Utd he was out of his depth. Now Southgate is nowhere near as good as even Moyes. While everybody is talking about the host of attacking options he pining over Kalvin Phillips. He doesn’t have what it takes to manage world class players. This idea of obliterating teams, playing through them, it’s above his station. He wants to steal games. He’s happy with 0-0’s he’s a lower league prem manager mentally even though in practice he’d get them relegated like he already did to Middlesbrough. Surely England deserve better than that. So my issue with Southgate is he’s had three tournaments, the team has been awful for months he must know him and his coaching staff are out of their depth. He only has to watch that Spain match to see a real team playing and coached properly. Why stay? Why stay and force us to watch your losing formula? Resign or change but don’t go out playing dull football waiting for a decent team to knock us out. If he’s as brave as he claims then resign or do something different. This guy cannot be that oblivious m, he’s had cups thrown at him, he’s a meme now, every pundit and ex-player has spoken out, you can’t be that oblivious. We essentially have three games to win a tournament and his style is going to get us knocked out you can’t rely on a lucky last second goal against better teams. Do something very different or resign what has he got to lose? If he sticks with dull loseball it says a lot about him as a person not just an incompetent coach. But I think he will stick with it because he doesn’t know how to do anything else.

 

That type of manager maybe doesn't exist for the FA currently or international football as a whole because its not the Premier League. When Southgate goes after this tournament the likely replacements will be from the likes of Darren Potter, Eddie Howe or Lee Carsley currently. Doesnt mean they wont fire £££ and get a big name but most of those will be late in their careers - Jose for example.

I think last night was Southgate's worst performance in a tournament, and by some distance. I think a boring group stage can be easily forgiven, especially in this expanded tournament where so many go through. Watching the Slovenia players celebrate with their fans at the other end of the stadium just showed how much it meant to them last week, and you don't need to be good in group stages to get to the end of, or win, a tournament - this is proven at virtually every tournament that ever takes place - so doing what's required whilst conserving energy and being solid is ultimately fine. But defensively we were awful, made far more mistakes than we had and Slovakia were able to get into great positions far easier than in the groups.

 

I find the whole thing with Southgate is hilarious really. He is unquestionably one of the two best England managers of all time, the levels he's been able to take us to are excellent and unthought of, some of the criticism has been way OTT, particularly around WC 2018, and he has made tough decisions which are often right. Continually slagged off for picking Maguire yet he proved at every tournament he's an excellent defender deserving of his place, going for Saka over Sancho was incredibly unpopular yet was spot on, his use of Phillips did make him a key and valuable player, he said it in a daft way but ultimately he's spot on that we haven't found the person to replace him yet, neither Trent, Gallagher or Mainoo have offered what he did. Even last night, fans going spare at a lack of subs and Bellingham and Kane still being on, them both scoring, but that's lucky and nothing to do with Southgate thinking that maybe having your two best players on is worth doing.

 

I think people forget just how awful England have been at international tournaments throughout their history, 5 times to a last 4 and three of those were in England. Even the most revered teams haven't really been that good. Fans of a certain vintage still reminisce about Italia 90 but England scraped through a terrible group with an identical record to Euro 2024s, got past two teams they should do in extra time and then essentially did what the current setup is criticised so much for, and got knocked out by the first decent team they faced.

That type of manager maybe doesn't exist for the FA currently or international football as a whole because its not the Premier League. When Southgate goes after this tournament the likely replacements will be from the likes of Darren Potter, Eddie Howe or Lee Carsley currently. Doesnt mean they wont fire £££ and get a big name but most of those will be late in their careers - Jose for example.

 

As a Newcastle fan I very much hope Eddie Howe isn't stupid enough to take the England job he could easily get fired from when he has a pretty much permanent role with Newcastle after taking us to the Champions League.

I think last night was Southgate's worst performance in a tournament, and by some distance. I think a boring group stage can be easily forgiven, especially in this expanded tournament where so many go through. Watching the Slovenia players celebrate with their fans at the other end of the stadium just showed how much it meant to them last week, and you don't need to be good in group stages to get to the end of, or win, a tournament - this is proven at virtually every tournament that ever takes place - so doing what's required whilst conserving energy and being solid is ultimately fine. But defensively we were awful, made far more mistakes than we had and Slovakia were able to get into great positions far easier than in the groups.

 

I find the whole thing with Southgate is hilarious really. He is unquestionably one of the two best England managers of all time, the levels he's been able to take us to are excellent and unthought of, some of the criticism has been way OTT, particularly around WC 2018, and he has made tough decisions which are often right. Continually slagged off for picking Maguire yet he proved at every tournament he's an excellent defender deserving of his place, going for Saka over Sancho was incredibly unpopular yet was spot on, his use of Phillips did make him a key and valuable player, he said it in a daft way but ultimately he's spot on that we haven't found the person to replace him yet, neither Trent, Gallagher or Mainoo have offered what he did. Even last night, fans going spare at a lack of subs and Bellingham and Kane still being on, them both scoring, but that's lucky and nothing to do with Southgate thinking that maybe having your two best players on is worth doing.

 

I think people forget just how awful England have been at international tournaments throughout their history, 5 times to a last 4 and three of those were in England. Even the most revered teams haven't really been that good. Fans of a certain vintage still reminisce about Italia 90 but England scraped through a terrible group with an identical record to Euro 2024s, got past two teams they should do in extra time and then essentially did what the current setup is criticised so much for, and got knocked out by the first decent team they faced.

 

People judge too much on things that aren’t reflective of true reality. Because let’s say England beat Switzerland on penalties then lose in the semi final. People could theoretically judge this tournament in years to come as a success, getting to a semi final but the reality is that England were lucky as hell to top the group, lucky to draw Slovakia then extremely lucky not to lose to Slovakia and even then got Switzerland and not a top top nation. Judging like that doesn’t make sense.

 

Also you can’t praise leaving Jude and Kane on because 0-1 down at half-time and struggling to create a shot on target until the 95th minute WAS terrible coaching and a wonder goal from scraps at the end shouldn’t make that redundant. It wasn’t a wise decision any of it, he didn’t know what to do and was bailed out by talent, we were saved in spite of him not in any way at all because of him.

 

The kalvin phillips stuff is insane. He is an average player. When Man Utd got rid of Roy Keane they replaced him with Carrick and changed styles. Every good coach or manager can do that but Southgate can’t. He even tried a right back over proven midfielders trying to recreate Kalvin Phillips, it’s just a guy with limited ideas who can’t maximise or use the talent at his disposal properly so when a tournament comes he panics and wants something he trusts. Wharton, Marino are perfect players for international football but Southgate would rather a Kalvin Phillips. That’s his level.

 

As for the other tournaments I would say this, what coach or manager wouldn’t have got those teams where he did? The draws were very kind each time. There wasn’t a team England beat you thought was a surprise or anything like that. England have an embarrassment of riches, incredible depth and world class talent. Saka maybe and Maguire(who else was there exactly to choose from?) were good choices but this is bare minimum stuff. It’s almost impossible not to qualify for tournaments these days. I just don’t see any tactics or things he’s done in games or anything memorable really to indicate he deserves credit. It’s just get a goal then defend for your lives. There is no style, there is no cohesion there is no identity. 2018-2021 it was better than now but it still felt like the team would be better with a proper coach. Yet now the squad and players are much better than 2018-2021 but England look worse and that’s what I mean about Southgate. He wants a team set up like a mid table premium league team and he’s hoping to nick a 1-0. Now he has the personal to dominate the ball, play close quick touches etc and that’s out of his league. The concept of a ball playing GK and high pressing it’s alien to him. He’s happy for a GK to launch it. To sit back and defend deep its outdated now. That’s why these minnows are playing England off the pitch.

 

For his limited ability he’s achieved great things but it does irk me when people confuse that for him being good because we’ve seen the evidence the last two tournaments. It’s very hard to have so many great players and play that poorly and then the failure to correct anything is obscene.

 

 

Bellingham in a spot of trouble after post-match celebrations;

 

@1807782149510303883

I did think his celebrations were a bit excessive after scoring and the final whistle. Especially when he was mouthing "who else, who else". It's like bro, England only got 2 shots on target in the whole match against Slovakia and were shit for 94 minutes. You should be ashamed that it had to come down to this to get past a team like them, this is why England don't win anything. You can see cockiness starting to creep in from certain sectors after this win.

People judge too much on things that aren’t reflective of true reality. Because let’s say England beat Switzerland on penalties then lose in the semi final. People could theoretically judge this tournament in years to come as a success, getting to a semi final but the reality is that England were lucky as hell to top the group, lucky to draw Slovakia then extremely lucky not to lose to Slovakia and even then got Switzerland and not a top top nation. Judging like that doesn’t make sense.

 

Well if this happens then yeah it'll probably be considered poor and he'll rightly get criticised for it, but let's actually let it happen first eh? You'd think we'd been knocked out 4-0 by Scotland given some of what's been said in the last two weeks.

 

Also you can’t praise leaving Jude and Kane on because 0-1 down at half-time and struggling to create a shot on target until the 95th minute WAS terrible coaching and a wonder goal from scraps at the end shouldn’t make that redundant. It wasn’t a wise decision any of it, he didn’t know what to do and was bailed out by talent, we were saved in spite of him not in any way at all because of him.

My point was he literally can't win with anything, his critics are so vociferous in their dislike of him that they just can't praise him for anything at all. The amount of fans slating Kane and Bellingham, and Southgate for keeping them on, was huge. If something shit happens it's all down to Southgate, if something good happens it's completely lucky and nothing to do with him whatsoever.

 

The kalvin phillips stuff is insane. He is an average player. When Man Utd got rid of Roy Keane they replaced him with Carrick and changed styles. Every good coach or manager can do that but Southgate can’t. He even tried a right back over proven midfielders trying to recreate Kalvin Phillips, it’s just a guy with limited ideas who can’t maximise or use the talent at his disposal properly so when a tournament comes he panics and wants something he trusts. Wharton, Marino are perfect players for international football but Southgate would rather a Kalvin Phillips. That’s his level.

 

This just isn't true though, is it? Kalvin Phillips under Bielsa was better than what Wharton or Mainoo have been in their limited careers so far. People see the Phillips of the last two seasons and revise history, he's now a joke figure but he was one of the Premier League's best midfielders and deservedly had a place in the England squad, and for two years was one of their better performing players.

 

As for the other tournaments I would say this, what coach or manager wouldn’t have got those teams where he did? The draws were very kind each time. There wasn’t a team England beat you thought was a surprise or anything like that. England have an embarrassment of riches, incredible depth and world class talent. Saka maybe and Maguire(who else was there exactly to choose from?) were good choices but this is bare minimum stuff. It’s almost impossible not to qualify for tournaments these days. I just don’t see any tactics or things he’s done in games or anything memorable really to indicate he deserves credit. It’s just get a goal then defend for your lives. There is no style, there is no cohesion there is no identity. 2018-2021 it was better than now but it still felt like the team would be better with a proper coach. Yet now the squad and players are much better than 2018-2021 but England look worse and that’s what I mean about Southgate. He wants a team set up like a mid table premium league team and he’s hoping to nick a 1-0. Now he has the personal to dominate the ball, play close quick touches etc and that’s out of his league. The concept of a ball playing GK and high pressing it’s alien to him. He’s happy for a GK to launch it. To sit back and defend deep its outdated now. That’s why these minnows are playing England off the pitch.

 

For his limited ability he’s achieved great things but it does irk me when people confuse that for him being good because we’ve seen the evidence the last two tournaments. It’s very hard to have so many great players and play that poorly and then the failure to correct anything is obscene.

 

In the tournaments leading up to Southgate we were knocked out and beaten by Iceland, Costa Rice and Russia. You talk as if beating Colombia, Sweden, Ukraine, Germany is some kind of 100% given. If you listened to fans, then there were about a dozen centre halves which he should've been picking over Maguire. I don't think anyone is trying to suggest he's some kind of tactical genius, and maybe it does need someone else to be able to take England to the next level, but some of what he's achieved is incredible and down to him, the culture around the squad under him compared to previous is chalk and cheese, his playing of the media has always been great too. In so many facets of international football management he's 9-10/10. His tactics may let him down but many better tacticians have not gone as far. Ultimately international football isn't like club football, it doesn't attract the best coaches, and tournaments are at at the end of long seasons and coaches don't get long with the players. Defensive, pragmatic football can (and often is) successful at this level, Didier Deschamps is hardly some kind of mastermind and France have rarely been great to watch despite some of their talent, but they're the most successful side of the last decade.

In the tournaments leading up to Southgate we were knocked out and beaten by Iceland, Costa Rice and Russia. You talk as if beating Colombia, Sweden, Ukraine, Germany is some kind of 100% given. If you listened to fans, then there were about a dozen centre halves which he should've been picking over Maguire. I don't think anyone is trying to suggest he's some kind of tactical genius, and maybe it does need someone else to be able to take England to the next level, but some of what he's achieved is incredible and down to him, the culture around the squad under him compared to previous is chalk and cheese, his playing of the media has always been great too. In so many facets of international football management he's 9-10/10. His tactics may let him down but many better tacticians have not gone as far. Ultimately international football isn't like club football, it doesn't attract the best coaches, and tournaments are at at the end of long seasons and coaches don't get long with the players. Defensive, pragmatic football can (and often is) successful at this level, Didier Deschamps is hardly some kind of mastermind and France have rarely been great to watch despite some of their talent, but they're the most successful side of the last decade.

 

I think you're over stating Southgate here. There's been plenty of examples where either himself or his coaching staff just don't know what to do in big games. I'm fine with playing defensive football, but for the first time in a long time, 90% of this squad play under a completely different style so can see why there's a glamour for something different. Football is decided by moments but the players either same incapable of reading how a game is going and learning to adapt, or Southgate is instructing them to be that way. The Slovakia game was just bizzare

 

The Maguire one is weird. Southgate was fiercly loyal to him, dropped others who were not playing well for the clubs, but then continues to pick Maguire. Something is just off with this camp, we've not looked good at all and there's not even signs things are improving. The players are way more frosty than usual and something just seems off. Maybe the PR hype has got through the squad RE Bellingham.

Well if this happens then yeah it'll probably be considered poor and he'll rightly get criticised for it, but let's actually let it happen first eh? You'd think we'd been knocked out 4-0 by Scotland given some of what's been said in the last two weeks.

 

My point was he literally can't win with anything, his critics are so vociferous in their dislike of him that they just can't praise him for anything at all. The amount of fans slating Kane and Bellingham, and Southgate for keeping them on, was huge. If something shit happens it's all down to Southgate, if something good happens it's completely lucky and nothing to do with him whatsoever.

This just isn't true though, is it? Kalvin Phillips under Bielsa was better than what Wharton or Mainoo have been in their limited careers so far. People see the Phillips of the last two seasons and revise history, he's now a joke figure but he was one of the Premier League's best midfielders and deservedly had a place in the England squad, and for two years was one of their better performing players.

In the tournaments leading up to Southgate we were knocked out and beaten by Iceland, Costa Rice and Russia. You talk as if beating Colombia, Sweden, Ukraine, Germany is some kind of 100% given. If you listened to fans, then there were about a dozen centre halves which he should've been picking over Maguire. I don't think anyone is trying to suggest he's some kind of tactical genius, and maybe it does need someone else to be able to take England to the next level, but some of what he's achieved is incredible and down to him, the culture around the squad under him compared to previous is chalk and cheese, his playing of the media has always been great too. In so many facets of international football management he's 9-10/10. His tactics may let him down but many better tacticians have not gone as far. Ultimately international football isn't like club football, it doesn't attract the best coaches, and tournaments are at at the end of long seasons and coaches don't get long with the players. Defensive, pragmatic football can (and often is) successful at this level, Didier Deschamps is hardly some kind of mastermind and France have rarely been great to watch despite some of their talent, but they're the most successful side of the last decade.

 

100% this!

I think you're over stating Southgate here. There's been plenty of examples where either himself or his coaching staff just don't know what to do in big games. I'm fine with playing defensive football, but for the first time in a long time, 90% of this squad play under a completely different style so can see why there's a glamour for something different. Football is decided by moments but the players either same incapable of reading how a game is going and learning to adapt, or Southgate is instructing them to be that way. The Slovakia game was just bizzare

 

The Maguire one is weird. Southgate was fiercly loyal to him, dropped others who were not playing well for the clubs, but then continues to pick Maguire. Something is just off with this camp, we've not looked good at all and there's not even signs things are improving. The players are way more frosty than usual and something just seems off. Maybe the PR hype has got through the squad RE Bellingham.

 

Say something is off as you say - and yet they’ve still got to a Quarter Final at the very least, surely that undermines your point about Southgate being a poor manager?

Someone should run a poll with these two options;

 

Would you rather England played really poor football but got results and progressed through the tournament

 

Or

 

Would you rather England played really good football and failed to qualify

 

In this scenario, and it's only a scenario, you can't have both, meaning you have to pick boring football to watch but with positive results based games, or appealing football to watch, maybe more goals, but not enough to qualify and ultimately lose the match.

Say something is off as you say - and yet they’ve still got to a Quarter Final at the very least, surely that undermines your point about Southgate being a poor manager?

 

Yeah but we've got there by complete fluke. Even the most ardent Southgate supporter will tell you that. We should be going on out. That Slovakia game was up there with the very worst I've ever seen. He mad no clue, no answer, no nothing. Is he a good tactical manager? Nope. Is he a good man manager? Absolutely.

I didn't watch the game but managed to catch the Bellingham goal by chance, what a sensational moment! And definitely a pointer that you should always keep your best players on, no one else in the squad is even attempting let alone executing that. Bravo!

 

He really really needs to drop Foden though like seriously. Done the square root of f*** all all tournament and was very telling indeed the moment he came off we scored both goals.

 

I think it's clear now that whatever happens Southgate will depart after the tournament so might as well get behind him for now. And like others have alluded to in this thread, it's the England job. A most poisoned chalice if ever there was one. We ain't getting any "world class" manager any time soon or indeed ever as no one in their right mind would take it on. I bet we'll end up with someone like Rob Edwards after Southgate at best.

agree with everything RabbitFurCoat has said. some England fans are so constantly negative it’s exhausting. the fact of the matter is that France’s performances have been arguably just as bad as ours, Portugal have been only slightly better, the Netherlands could very well qualify with the same sense of underwhelm (not to mention Italy, Croatia, and Belgium - all teams that are already eliminated despite having similar high expectations as England) but for some reason we’re levelling all our criticism at England? the tournament is wide open, we’re in the last 8 with every chance of pushing on to the final, which we would have taken in a heartbeat at any point between 2006-16. the sense of entitlement coming from some England fans despite the fact we’re getting the results we need is infuriating