Good map in todays Guardian which highlights what is discussed on immigration:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-intera...ares-visualised

Good map in todays Guardian which highlights what is discussed on immigration:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-intera...ares-visualised

 

Stuff like this is just keeping people in a state of delusion. The reason Europe has a population decline is due to a lot of people being unable to afford kids and not finding good homes since immigration has destroyed their standard of life and the solution to this? More immigration. Anyone arguing that is already not worth listening to.

 

Wouldn’t a better solution be Europeans have more kids? Exploring why they’re not? Not making a flawed case for more immigration, people do that because they’ve created a lie that immigration = good and they can’t admit they were wrong so they’re at the psychosis level of mass delusion.

 

First of all if you need immigration for say doctors or nurses why is it other countries have them and not the UK? Do their countries not have hospitals? Do they not need them? Does the UK not produce doctors? There is no rational. The crazy thing is UK wages are so bad our best doctors go to other countries to work most of the time. So we’re left with those of sub standard quality and not enough of them. Fabulous.

 

Ultimately the UK especially London has too many people. The pollution is getting worse, public transport cannot cope, roads always jammed, benefits through the roof, wages low, nobody happy. It’s the worst of all worlds. Everything in life is moderation. If you eat 300 chocolate bars a week you might not be feeling so good. 1 a day might not be too bad. You cannot have millions of extra people unless you build a new home every 30 seconds and a new hospital every couple of days, that won’t happen so the standard of living is down, waiting times up, rents up etc etc. again a nightmare for everybody. Poverty rises and with poverty comes crime and now you have a big crime problem too so you need extra police and extra prisons which don’t exist either.

 

All that catastrophe because some people think pro-immigration = I’m a great person all while they call people seeing their countries fall apart the worst names in the world for stating the obvious. And that’s just scratching the surface there are obviously complex cultural and other issues that go with it too.

 

A good society has secure borders, a sensible immigration policy, listens to their own voters and then tries to be humane and take in genuine people who need help or sustainable numbers of normal immigration. The people suffering from immigration psychosis are ruining it for everyone because now even extreme people on the anti immigration side sound more sane than them.

 

I saw recently even Starmer is saying this

 

@1891239105058480632

 

But you cannot entertain these type of articles they are just manipulating statistics and omitting tons of information to make a flawed and ultimately incorrect point. Has Britain got itself into a position where damned if you do damned if you don’t with people living longer and needing to fund pensions I mean somewhat but that’s still manageable without this kind of mass psychosis.

 

 

Ultimately younger and younger people are becoming more friendly to extreme right wing parties primarily due to one issue and you can’t claim younger people would be more racist or hostile to immigrants than older generations that defies all logic of the evolution of humans so clearly the problem has got so bad that people are past that lower level understanding of such an issue.

 

Who is even benefitting from these ideas? I knew a polish guy who was a bouncer. He didn’t earn that much. His English wasn’t amazing. He had no real friends here. Got abused every shift. Lived in a tiny accommodation. Sent most of what he earned to his wife back in Poland they had two kids.

They didn’t see their father. He had a terrible standard of life. The country saw money go out of the country. It seemed like a lose/lose/lose situation. And Britain cannot find a bouncer? Did they really need immigration for that job? A lose/lose/lose/lose situation even.

 

Anyway some people will never get it. But if people really dislike Trump and Farage and AFD etc then why would they support such senseless immigration policies that fuel their support? It seems people hate the right wing more for identity reasons and insulting others also makes them feel better about themselves. You saw that with the whole Gaza Kamala issue. Those who really cared about that issue couldn’t vote for her, others just tried to move it out of the way. It’s like do you care about a genocide or not? It’s not just a small point. It’s genocide. This is surely a vote losing thing. And maybe if you’re motivated more about opposing the right wing and not principles or morals then you can overlook that. I like difference of opinion but when it comes to immigration a lot of people are on an imaginary high horse about an issue where it’s so obvious they’re logically and factually wrong and the more wrong they are the more hostile they get to the people pointing it out when supposedly they’re motivated by kindness and love. Be serious please. In a democracy the elections should matter and on immigration it’s clear what people continually vote for so why should the opposite keep happening? It shouldn’t.

 

Stuff like this is just keeping people in a state of delusion. The reason Europe has a population decline is due to a lot of people being unable to afford kids and not finding good homes since immigration has destroyed their standard of life and the solution to this? More immigration. Anyone arguing that is already not worth listening to.

not really that simple though is it

 

I know many people my age (mid-late 20's) who have been unable to get onto the property ladder/settle down and you can attribute a whole plethora of reasons to this (think COVID, austerity, the lack of a national living wage outside London and mostly just general economic mismanagement under the Tories tbf). the notion that if Britain had seen very little immigration in the last ~10 years it would all be sunshine and rainbows is laughable

 

the paragraph I quoted reads like someone who's fell hook, line and sinker for the nationalist sentiments on Twitter/X/whatever that *intentionally* lack any critical thinking or nuance to further paint immigrants as 'the problem' :rolleyes:

Edited February 18Feb 18 by hinterland

Stuff like this is just keeping people in a state of delusion. The reason Europe has a population decline is due to a lot of people being unable to afford kids and not finding good homes since immigration has destroyed their standard of life and the solution to this?

The European countries with the lowest fertility rates are Bosnia, Croatia, Greece, Spain, Italy and North Macedonia, three of which have emigration crises compounding the fertility problem, whereas the countries with the highest rates are France, Ireland and Kosovo. Ireland and France have much higher net migration than their neighbours. I really don't think there is a correlation between fertility rates and net migration in Europe.

Anyway some people will never get it. But if people really dislike Trump and Farage and AFD etc then why would they support such senseless immigration policies that fuel their support? It seems people hate the right wing more for identity reasons and insulting others also makes them feel better about themselves

 

OH MY GOD THESE PEOPLE ARE FASCISTS AND TRAITORS

 

What is WRONG with you that you keep finding alternative explanations and skating over what they are ACTUALLY doing while LYING to JUSTIFY it to PEOPLE LIKE YOU???

 

You: "well I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable explanation, there's no way someone could actually be behaving the way that all evidence including words out of their own mouth indicates they're behaving."

 

Seriously. Is there ANYTHING that would cause you to actually become suspicious of Trump and Farage? What would it take for you to conceptualise that they themselves might be the root of the rot?

 

I don't know that there's much more to say really. Apparently it's just a fact that it's immigration and not anything else that have led to various economic woes and innovation slowdown among wealthy countries, rather than the various factors that come with a more educated populace used to a certain level of luxury. Utter stupidity dipped in outrage bait every time he posts.

 

Oh and this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/...ts-economy-soar

 

“Spain needs to choose between being an open and prosperous country or a closed-off, poor country,” [sanchez]told parliament in October. “It’s as simple as that.”

 

Migration was not only a question of humanity, he said, but – in a country where the birthrate ranked among the lowest in the EU – it was the only realistic means of growing the economy and sustaining the welfare state.

 

Months on, his stance has seemingly been backed by economic data: Spain’s economy expanded by 3.2% last year. This far outpaced Germany’s 0.2% contraction, France’s 1.1% growth and Italy’s 0.5%. The figure was also ahead of Britain, whose total GDP grew by 0.9% last year and the Netherlands’ 0.8% growth.

 

The result was a working-age population that nearly doubled compared with other countries in western Europe. Of the 468,000 jobs created across Spain last year, roughly 409,000 were filled by migrants or people with dual nationality, many of them from Latin America, but also from across Europe and Africa. “Overall, Bank of Spain analysis suggests immigration contributed over 20% to the near 3% GDP per capita income growth during 2022-2024,” noted JPMorgan.

 

Notably I also agree with what the article says at the end, that this is not enough to show that it's a trend, and Denmark shows another potential outcome, as their centre-left government has done well on a much harsher immigration policy, but undoubtedly having more people of working age and welcoming them has done Spain favours - and arguing that immigration slows down an economy and makes it worse off for its original residents is for the birds. Which is more charitable to opposing viewpoints than some here.

See Liam, your post is contradictory. London (and the country) is overcrowded and full of immigrants but the birth rate is low and this is a problem. Which is right wing code for lets breed a load of white European babies. Some of your arguments are so lazy and just taken from far right influencers. Why do we not have more doctors? Well why don't we look at our social background - training to be a doctor is hard, underpaid and expensive - that's why. Oh hey, why would I want to work hard when I can earn £££ being a social media influencer??? Such lazy arguments.

 

The irony being America of course was built on immigration. Look there are many issues nobody is denying that, but populism is an easy route out. Like I've said before if you promise someone more jobs, more money, lower prices who wouldn't vote for it? I know I would, especially when you see extreme rent prices, house prices going up etc. etc. - what frustrates me is the idea that these friendly billionaires care about you. They do not give one care in the world. You're a useful idiot to them. You give a reason to people why their lives are so shit and they believe it. All while the puppetmasters behind the scenes are controlling things to make themselves richer and still make life shite for everyone.

 

There are many people within this thread whose political views I disagree with (and probably still do to some degrees!) but we are all aware of the far right and populism. History is filled of it. But on this, you will see us all coming together and agreeing with each other as we all know where this will go next.

Also there's a thing that is very gross that I want to directly call out as well:

 

The framing of all non white people as immigrants.

 

This is something that is disingenuously done by a LOT of right-wing commentators to try and make the 'scary' number look bigger but if we are going to be honest - and let's be honest, because such people LOVE hiding their actual views in obfuscation and not being frank and upfront -

 

The ONLY way for "white British families" to be a majority in this country is to mandate that white British people ONLY procreate with other white British people - if children of one white British parent and one non-white-and-British parent are ALWAYS going to be classed as immigrants.

 

That IS racist.

Agreed, the one drop rule is very malevolent. There was a video going round earlier about somebody getting bold enough to call Rishi Sunak not British (quote: 'he's a brown Hindu, how can he be British'), which is an indication that something is not right with these people's heads.

But it's also pertinent to the conversation around "British people aren't having children" and "kids in schools are speaking 25 languages" etc.

 

The implication or even outright statement there is that these children are the children of two foreign first generation immigrants who moved to this country together - and there is never any evidence whatsoever apart from vibes or presumption through misrepresentation to actually confirm that.

 

The reality is that all of the below would count as British children or the children of British people:

* the son of a white British father and Black or Asian British mother

* the daughter of a white British mother and white Polish father

* the son of a white British father and Chinese immigrant mother

* the children of a white British mother and an Indian father

There's also adoption or people marrying into a second family...

 

I am sure as we have many teachers on here they would be able to confirm such families.

 

Even looking in my own family. My sister in law is Malaysian. Her children, born here, will grow up bilingual. They're half white. English will be their language du jour at school and work. But because they're not fully white British & because they can speak another language with mum or grandma, clearly they're "immigrant children" and proof that white British people aren't having kids...

I'm old. Kids I was at school with are also now old, that includes kids of Polish immigrants, Caribbean migrants welcomed here cos we needed jobs filling and loads of people came from the winding-down British Empire because we were f***ed after the war, and they all helped rebuild the nation. People born here are not immigrants and they can be any colour. More recent waves of immigrants are no different from the previous ones, their kids will integrate bar a minority of trouble-makers, but you get those regardless of background.

 

If you go back far enough we are all descended from successive waves of immigrants and society changes and develops along the way, from language, food, culture and much much more. British Culture in 2025 isnt the same culture it was in 1975, some ways for better, some ways for worse, but it sure as hell is nothing like it was in 1925 and 1875, so it's pointless even trying to say that the culture of any nation is static and unchanging because it isn't.

 

The REAL problem is the total lack of housebuilding for political reasons. To keep house-owners feeling better-off, to keep landlords Tory and sponging off people who have to rent. A member of our family is having to move out because the flat is racked with damp, everything is mouldy and it gets into the lungs. I've seen the disgusting photos. But the landlord doesnt give a flying f***. The Right To Buy was and is a disaster, taxpayers sell houses set aside for those that need it at half price to people so that they vote the Tories, but increase the burden and cost on the welfare state as landlords again come into free cash from the taxpayer when children are made homeless. Adults made homeless of course walk the streets in many cases, they are in every town, so it's not exactly something you can miss. Believe or not, when I was a kid, and large swathes of the population were all mostly poor by today's standards, there were virtually no homeless people! Imagine that! So it can easily be fixed. Build more f***ing houses and stuff the NIMBYS. That means hiring immigrants because we dont have the skilled numbers needed to make a difference. It will boost the economy and make houses more affordable.

 

 

I work in the councils housing services and most of the people that are walking the streets are homeless because of addiction, you could house them in Buckingham palace and they’d still be homeless a few months later.

I work in the councils housing services and most of the people that are walking the streets are homeless because of addiction, you could house them in Buckingham palace and they’d still be homeless a few months later.

 

It’s all because too much illegal and legal immigration. People have to live somewhere. Demand is far outweighing supply. The market is expensive. Now someone has to live in their vehicle or with family but that’s not always possible. Now they’re having days being completely homeless, struggling to stay clean and look presentable their chances of getting a job reduce and now they’re living terribly their mental health suffers then they’re taking drugs to cope with their situation and before you know it they’re unrecognisable and seem like like a crazy person to stranger. It’s a cycle that is rooted in too many people both due to housing shortages/costs and overloaded mental health services/doctors where now it can take 3-4 weeks to get an appointment and you get 5 minutes max when you do get one.

 

Of course the claim is just build more homes till when? The green belt is gone? We’re all wearing masks due to pollution? The majority live in box rooms? What next? Reduce prison sentences to 20% served due to lack of space? Maybe just solve the root problem then it’s a lot easier to solve other problems. Addiction sometimes leads to homelessness but often it’s the other way around and in a good society rehab and mental health services should be easy to access but in an overloaded one they’re often short on funds, don’t have great people involved and the results are not great. That’s why homelessness is a lot higher today than in the past even though as society evolves the opposite should be happening.

It’s all because too much illegal and legal immigration. People have to live somewhere. Demand is far outweighing supply. The market is expensive. Now someone has to live in their vehicle or with family but that’s not always possible. Now they’re having days being completely homeless, struggling to stay clean and look presentable their chances of getting a job reduce and now they’re living terribly their mental health suffers then they’re taking drugs to cope with their situation and before you know it they’re unrecognisable and seem like like a crazy person to stranger. It’s a cycle that is rooted in too many people both due to housing shortages/costs and overloaded mental health services/doctors where now it can take 3-4 weeks to get an appointment and you get 5 minutes max when you do get one.

 

Of course the claim is just build more homes till when? The green belt is gone? We’re all wearing masks due to pollution? The majority live in box rooms? What next? Reduce prison sentences to 20% served due to lack of space? Maybe just solve the root problem then it’s a lot easier to solve other problems. Addiction sometimes leads to homelessness but often it’s the other way around and in a good society rehab and mental health services should be easy to access but in an overloaded one they’re often short on funds, don’t have great people involved and the results are not great. That’s why homelessness is a lot higher today than in the past even though as society evolves the opposite should be happening.

Yes, people have to live somewhere. Lots of people are happy to live in the country where they were born. Many other people have good reason to want to live in a different country. Can you give a single example of someone who has chosen where they were born?

Paragraphs of brain rot.

It’s all because too much illegal and legal immigration. People have to live somewhere. Demand is far outweighing supply. The market is expensive. Now someone has to live in their vehicle or with family but that’s not always possible. Now they’re having days being completely homeless, struggling to stay clean and look presentable their chances of getting a job reduce and now they’re living terribly their mental health suffers then they’re taking drugs to cope with their situation and before you know it they’re unrecognisable and seem like like a crazy person to stranger. It’s a cycle that is rooted in too many people both due to housing shortages/costs and overloaded mental health services/doctors where now it can take 3-4 weeks to get an appointment and you get 5 minutes max when you do get one.

 

Of course the claim is just build more homes till when? The green belt is gone? We’re all wearing masks due to pollution? The majority live in box rooms? What next? Reduce prison sentences to 20% served due to lack of space? Maybe just solve the root problem then it’s a lot easier to solve other problems. Addiction sometimes leads to homelessness but often it’s the other way around and in a good society rehab and mental health services should be easy to access but in an overloaded one they’re often short on funds, don’t have great people involved and the results are not great. That’s why homelessness is a lot higher today than in the past even though as society evolves the opposite should be happening.

You were born into your privilege and it shows by how absolutely out of touch and ignorant you are. Try talking to a black person, or a white immigrant if you’re too scared they will make you become homeless.

 

 

Speaking of mental health problems, it is really getting into crazy paranoia territory. Unless this has just been trolling the whole time. I’m struggling to believe how someone can seriously make those conclusions while not on meth.

The MAGA mastermind of Tarrifs are going well. Markets fall and the administration pauses, but of coruse "absolutely nothing to do with cancelling the tarrifs, FAKE NEWS" :lol: Who'd have thought they'd be a disaster ey.

It is just going to be like this month after month now, isn't it, announce something drastic and stupid, reality and economic signs dip, walk back and climb down. Sheinbaum and Trudeau are going to be pleased, not sure anyone in America should be.

Notably, Trump's approval ratings on the average poll tracker has just now crossed into the negative, becoming the second-fastest administration in US history to reach that milestone (44 days), after his first (16 days). They've never seen anything like this before.

(rip 538)

They've never seen numbers like this! Those numbers are falling, falling, so deep under water now, folks, he can see Atlantis!! Smirk. Gotta tell ya, we should send Trumplestiltskin down there to see if he can't find it, Atlantis. You never know, with his poll numbers... He might even find the Heart of the Ocean whilst he's down there! It's really something, folks, it's really somethin, seeing numbers like these. They're saying, we've never seen poll numbers collapse this fast! Ever! Ever! Good word isn't it, collapse. I have the best words. Just goes to show his administration is a total joke. Don't listen to me. Don't take my word for it. Just look at the polls, folks! Just look at the polls! Republicans are saying, oh no, it's fine. They need ro go to the eye doctor, I gotra tell ya folks, get those peepers looked at, cos they aren't seeing what the rest of us are seeing, let me tell you that much! Fake laugh and arrogant head tilt. Total corrupt administration and totally underwater. Just call us all the USS Titanic, because we're goin under folks, with this lot in charge. Grown men with tears in their eyes are coming up to me, worrying about sharks in the wster ss we going down. I tell them, stay away from the motorboat engines!! They attract sharks!! Haven't they seen Jaws? Good thing I'm so smart so I can warn you all.